Alexander Buttner | 2013/14 Performances

[Rossa]

Exactly... and a few seasons ago is qutie some time in football. Ultimately, I don't think anyone can honestly say that Fabio has better technical quality than Rafael... he has shown nothing in the past 2 years to back this up.

And as for having the greater talent, people say a load of things in football... doesn't necceserily mean all of them are true.

You can improve on what you had a couple of seasons ago. I doubt that he will remain at the same level for all of eternity. It's not that unheard of that people improve. Given game time, I'm sure he can improve on the levels he previously had, where, imo, his technical level was slightly above that of Rafael.

The talent thing is partly true, but perhaps he should be given a proper run of games, in Evra's absence or resting, to prove if he still has that talent? Or maybe you know better than everyone else in that department? If you read this thread a few years back on the Caf, then you will see that a lot of people rated them the same and most thought that Fabio was in fact technically more gifted and arguably better in attack:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/fabio-rafael.328117/

 

[Genius Me!]

I think what pisses me off the most about Buttner is that from far he looks like Cleverley, even though really and truly he looks nothing like Cleverley. He wishes he could look like Cleverley. He probably wishes he was as good as Cleveley too.

Basically Buttner is my new Gibson and until he learns how to play football I can't see myself liking him, but if he does play well I'll give him credit. He wasn't terrible yesterday, he just wasn't great IMO, I'd say he was better defensively than attacking yesterday.

He's a nice fella though and a good buddy for Van Persie, so that's something positive.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I think what pisses me off the most about Buttner is that from far he looks like Cleverley, even though really and truly he looks nothing like Cleverley. He wishes he could look like Cleverley. He probably wishes he was as good as Cleveley too.

Basically Buttner is my new Gibson and until he learns how to play football I can't see myself liking him, but if he does play well I'll give him credit. He wasn't terrible yesterday, he just wasn't great IMO, I'd say he was better defensively than attacking yesterday.

He's a nice fella though and a good buddy for Van Persie, so that's something positive.

This is a valid objection. It really is, not trying to be sarcastic.

 

[alastair]

He really isn't that bad. I don't know why you signed him, but some of the comments are way over the top. He's better than Bebe.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Not good enough for United, simple as. If he was at any of the other top 4 clubs, he would be slated on here. People trying to defend him really are tedious.

 

[Mersault]

He's the one player in the squad who, several times per match, I cant help saying out loud "What the hell are you doing?!?"

I think that with Young more and more. Get your point though. I watched the last few minutes of the game yesterday and he was trying to attack in stoppage time I think, when there was no advantage to be gained and he lost the ball. He is a very rough player and a loan would be the most sensible option, see if he improves and have someone else deal with his mistakes along the way.

 

[Snow]

He really isn't that bad. I don't know why you signed him, but some of the comments are way over the top. He's better than Bebe.

Definitely. A player that isn't as good as the one starting = not good enough to play at all. Doesn't make sense. These comments would surface as well about Welbeck and Hernandez if we had both RvP and Rooney.

We had Keane and Scholes in midfield at one point. By definition of this critique, Carrick isn't good enough to play for United.+

Not good enough to start? Of course he is. He has like 14 games in 14 months and before that he had only played for Vitesse. He's quite the adequate cover for Evra.

 

[Genius Me!]

Definitely. A player that isn't as good as the one starting = not good enough to play at all. Doesn't make sense. These comments would surface as well about Welbeck and Hernandez if we had both RvP and Rooney.

We had Keane and Scholes in midfield at one point. By definition of this critique, Carrick isn't good enough to play for United.+

Not good enough to start? Of course he is. He has like 14 games in 14 months and before that he had only played for Vitesse. He's quite the adequate cover for Evra.

Couldn't disagree with you more. We are allowed to make judgement on whether we think somebody is good enough for us without taking into consideration his competition.

Basically, regardless of whether or not he's just an understudy doesn't mean we shouldn't say we don't think he's good enough for our club. You can't compare his situation to Welbeck or Hernandez either because both of them ARE good enough to be starters for us.

A better comparison would be to say that Gibson can come back and be an understudy to Carrick because he's not going to start every game. Would you like Gibson to come back as Gibson's understudy?

 

[krazyrobus]

Definitely. A player that isn't as good as the one starting = not good enough to play at all. Doesn't make sense. These comments would surface as well about Welbeck and Hernandez if we had both RvP and Rooney.

We had Keane and Scholes in midfield at one point. By definition of this critique, Carrick isn't good enough to play for United.+

Not good enough to start? Of course he is. He has like 14 games in 14 months and before that he had only played for Vitesse. He's quite the adequate cover for Evra.

No one expects 11 top class players on the pitch and a further 11 in reserve but there has to be baseline criteria based on technical, tactical, attitude and talent ability.

I just don't see Buttner as matching the baseline criteria for technical or tactical ability to be a member of this squad. I'd sooner try out a youngster with potential than waste this spot on a player who in all likelihood will end up a mid-table level player.

 

[Ekeke]

He's a bad defender who has a tendancy to try risky things in his own half for no particular reason. If he cuts out the second part completely and does a lot of work on the first part, he could be a pretty good player but at 24 its a lot of improvement in a couple of years for his prime

 

[Snow]

Couldn't disagree with you more. We are allowed to make judgement on whether we think somebody is good enough for us without taking into consideration his competition.

Basically, regardless of whether or not he's just an understudy doesn't mean we shouldn't say we don't think he's good enough for our club. You can't compare his situation to Welbeck or Hernandez either because both of them ARE good enough to be starters for us.

A better comparison would be to say that Gibson can come back and be an understudy to Carrick because he's not going to start every game. Would you like Gibson to come back as Gibson's understudy?

Of course you have to take into consideration the competition. Why would I want Gibson back? He wouldn't be Carrick's understudy because we already have lots of players at his caliber.

I don't know why you think Welbeck is good enough as opposed to Büttner. Büttner hasn't done wrong. Meanwhile Welbeck is being used as a winger because he isn't good enough to play as a striker and he provides very little from the flanks. He's a good footballer but his qualities don't fit our team very well. Hernandez is always better than him as a striker and Young isn't worse as a winger.

It matters a lot how much you play. You people have barely seen Büttner play at all. He could improve a lot if he plays a whole season. Just look at Robbie Brady now with Hull or Danny Rose at Tottenham. They had similar problems and were both used as full backs or as wingers.

 

[Snow]

No one expects 11 top class players on the pitch and a further 11 in reserve but there has to be baseline criteria based on technical, tactical, attitude and talent ability.

I just don't see Buttner as matching the baseline criteria for technical or tactical ability to be a member of this squad. I'd sooner try out a youngster with potential than waste this spot on a player who in all likelihood will end up a mid-table level player.

That's exactly what Büttner is. Without him we would be playing Evans or some other CB at LB or have Evra playing even more. People are being really unrealistic about the quality of full backs. Look at the other teams and tell me who have a good starting left and right back and have good cover for them both?

Rafael-Evra, Fabio-Büttner
Cole-Ivanovic, Bertrand-Azpilicueta
Zabaleta-Clichy, Kolarov-Richards
Walker-Rose, Naughton-Fryers
Sagna-Gibbs, Monreal-Jenkinson
Johnson-Enrique, CB-Cissokho (loanee)

Is Büttner really that bad compared to the others? Are the 2-3 games in the CL that don't matter, the few cup games and about 5-6 league games that he plays going to wreck our season? Doesn't he do alright overall in them? I don't know what is more to be expected. We have a lot of problems fixing our midfield problems, this isn't a problem that needs fixing. It's not like it was with Lindegaard when he was starting ahead of De Gea. Let Büttner play half of the games in a season and we have a problem but so far it's fine. He'll do alright.

 

[Genius Me!]

Of course you have to take into consideration the competition. Why would I want Gibson back? He wouldn't be Carrick's understudy because we already have lots of players at his caliber.

I don't know why you think Welbeck is good enough as opposed to Büttner. Büttner hasn't done wrong. Meanwhile Welbeck is being used as a winger because he isn't good enough to play as a striker and he provides very little from the flanks. He's a good footballer but his qualities don't fit our team very well. Hernandez is always better than him as a striker and Young isn't worse as a winger.

It matters a lot how much you play. You people have barely seen Büttner play at all. He could improve a lot if he plays a whole season. Just look at Robbie Brady now with Hull or Danny Rose at Tottenham. They had similar problems and were both used as full backs or as wingers.

Really? It's not really hard to look at a player and realise if he has it or doesn't have it. Buttner may improve, but he'll never improve to the level of being a United player and that's even including him as a squad player. I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, I see nothing in Buttner that suggests to me that he can improve to the level you seem to think he can.

 

[Snow]

Really? It's not really hard to look at a player and realise if he has it or doesn't have it. Buttner may improve, but he'll never improve to the level of being a United player and that's even including him as a squad player. I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, I see nothing in Buttner that suggests to me that he can improve to the level you seem to think he can.

What level do you think that I think he can achieve?

Welbeck has all the potential to be a great player but it's all for nothing if he can't learn to handle himself inside the box. There hasn't been any progress from him there and he's supposed to be a striker. He isn't a threat outside the box, he can't cross and as soon as he severely lacks composure when needed. People love to have a laugh at Kuyt and say that he sucked but what makes Welbeck the better player? We practically use him the same way. Welbeck is gifted with natural pace and he's off a more technically gifted generation of footballers but he still has got a long way imo. It's what's missing from his game.

Much more difficult to maintain a position as a striker at United than to be a left back. The level of competition for a striker role is just much higher.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Couldn't disagree with you more. We are allowed to make judgement on whether we think somebody is good enough for us without taking into consideration his competition.

Basically, regardless of whether or not he's just an understudy doesn't mean we shouldn't say we don't think he's good enough for our club. You can't compare his situation to Welbeck or Hernandez either because both of them ARE good enough to be starters for us.

A better comparison would be to say that Gibson can come back and be an understudy to Carrick because he's not going to start every game. Would you like Gibson to come back as Gibson's understudy?

I would. It would provide us with precisely that surreal air I think we lack, Fellaini's (h)air notwithstanding.

 

[krazyrobus]

That's exactly what Büttner is. Without him we would be playing Evans or some other CB at LB or have Evra playing even more. People are being really unrealistic about the quality of full backs. Look at the other teams and tell me who have a good starting left and right back and have good cover for them both?

Rafael-Evra, Fabio-Büttner
Cole-Ivanovic, Bertrand-Azpilicueta
Zabaleta-Clichy, Kolarov-Richards
Walker-Rose, Naughton-Fryers
Sagna-Gibbs, Monreal-Jenkinson
Johnson-Enrique, CB-Cissokho (loanee)

Is Büttner really that bad compared to the others? Are the 2-3 games in the CL that don't matter, the few cup games and about 5-6 league games that he plays going to wreck our season? Doesn't he do alright overall in them? I don't know what is more to be expected. We have a lot of problems fixing our midfield problems, this isn't a problem that needs fixing. It's not like it was with Lindegaard when he was starting ahead of De Gea. Let Büttner play half of the games in a season and we have a problem but so far it's fine. He'll do alright.

Buttner is 24, I don't consider that a youngster.

Let's look at your comparison, is he as good as Kolarov, Azpilicueta, Monreal? Nope, Comparisons to Liverpool and Tottenham are moot, we aren't aspiring to 4th place.

Finally, when I say get rid of Buttner, i'm not suggesting it with a view to playing Evans or another CB there although lets face it, if Evra got injured and we were to play City, i'm confident Moyes would put in a player like Evans at LB than play Buttner. Death to left side as an attacking threat.

I'd say let us put out a player where with potential to either push Evra or get as close to him as possible, let's not forget Evra is 32. It would be nice to bring someone in with a view to giving him far more reliable resting time as well as eventually phase him out, succession planning is critical to any organization's well being.

 

[Snow]

Buttner is 24, I don't consider that a youngster.

Let's look at your comparison, is he as good as Kolarov, Azpilicueta, Monreal? Nope, Comparisons to Liverpool and Tottenham are moot, we aren't aspiring to 4th place.

Finally, when I say get rid of Buttner, i'm not suggesting it with a view to playing Evans or another CB there although lets face it, if Evra got injured and we were to play City, i'm confident Moyes would put in a player like Evans at LB than play Buttner. Death to left side as an attacking threat.

I'd say let us put out a player where with potential to either push Evra or get as close to him as possible, let's not forget Evra is 32. It would be nice to bring someone in with a view to giving him far more reliable resting time as well as eventually phase him out, succession planning is critical to any organization's well being.

My comparison was the 2 starting fullbacks and their 2 covers. Point was that it's pretty god damn hard to get better cover than him. Azpilicueta is as much of a left back as Fabio is.

I don't disagree with this. Getting better players is always a plus. Doesn't mean he's shit. We've had plenty of shit players play for us in the past. He's not that. He's performed better than players that were bought for much more money and had higher expectations. I just don't see the point in talking him down like that. Do it if he's shit. Not when he does alright in a Capital One Cup game against Liverpool where he dispossesses Suarez twice.

 

[Adam-Utd]

I'm surprised people are being so negative over Buttner, against Liverpool I didn't think he did that badly.

Sure his defensive positioning is not naturally the best, but then he is deep down not really a LB.

He offers Evra a rest and can do a steady job, and he offers a good attacking threat going forward.

 

[charleysurf]

I'm surprised people are being so negative over Buttner, against Liverpool I didn't think he did that badly.

Sure his defensive positioning is not naturally the best, but then he is deep down not really a LB.

He offers Evra a rest and can do a steady job, and he offers a good attacking threat going forward.

He played quite well against Liverpool. Same old thing, posters on here have a negative view on a player, or a positive view on a player, and they'll see what they want to see in a match to back that up.
He's never going to be a first choice LB, but against the smaller teams he could be enough.

 

[Genius Me!]

He played quite well against Liverpool. Same old thing, posters on here have a negative view on a player, or a positive view on a player, and they'll see what they want to see in a match to back that up.
He's never going to be a first choice LB, but against the smaller teams he could be enough.

1 decent game doesn't make a player decent. You're just forgetting all the terrible games he's had where goals were shipped in his side.

Smalling played well at RB against Leverkusen, look what happened to him against City.

 

[OnlyTwoDaSilvas]

I thought he did well against Liverpool too, and that's not his only decent game. His trickery can be a bit OTT. I think he's quick enough to just knock it on and cross it, but he was reasonably disciplined. He intervened defensively on a number of occasions, that header to take it beyond Sturridge at the far post especially is something which catches Evra out ball-watching all the time. Made some good tackles and huffed and puffed to get back alot of the time.

I think we are a bit hard on the guy. Evra is poor defensively too, but we all love Pat, and quite rightly. Buttner is a reasonable squad player who has plenty of footballing ability. His pace and trickery causes problems. I'm fine with him being an option for home games against the lower half of the league and cup games, but I would also like to see more of Fabio too. I don't think we have room for 3 left backs. I think we either need to lose one, or Fabio needs to be a deputy right back ahead of Smalling and Jones.

 

[SER19]

i dont understand the buttner abuse really. hes perfectly competent as a back up left back.

 

[Genius Me!]

i dont understand the buttner abuse really. hes perfectly competent as a back up left back.

And if god forbid Evra was out for the season (assuming we brought no one in January), would you be confident in going in with Buttner as our first choice left back.

 

[SER19]

And if god forbid Evra was out for the season (assuming we brought no one in January), would you be confident in going in with Buttner as our first choice left back.

i wouldnt be completely confident no, but dont feel we'd fall apart..he's certainly more than capable for the majority of teams that we expect to beat. might get found out against the better ones.

 

[Genius Me!]

i wouldnt be completely confident no, but dont feel we'd fall apart..he's certainly more than capable for the majority of teams that we expect to beat. might get found out against the better ones.

I just don't feel confident with him, he's not good enough defensively and he holds the ball up too much when going forward and actually slows down counter attacks, his shooting is erratic and he doesn't make the best decisions. Not to mention that his crosses are just hit and hope.

He did okay against Liverpool I'll give him that, but I've seen enough of him to be able to make a judgement on how good I think he is.

I'd love him to prove me wrong, I don't hate a player for the sake of hating a player. But if I don't think he has what it takes then I'm not going to love him just because he plays for united.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

I just don't feel confident with him, he's not good enough defensively and he holds the ball up too much when going forward and actually slows down counter attacks, his shooting is erratic and he doesn't make the best decisions. Not to mention that his crosses are just hit and hope.

He did okay against Liverpool I'll give him that, but I've seen enough of him to be able to make a judgement on how good I think he is.

I'd love him to prove me wrong, I don't hate a player for the sake of hating a player. But if I don't think he has what it takes then I'm not going to love him just because he plays for united.

That's understandable - no argument there. He has some flaws, undeniably so. The fullback positions are tricky ones. Having a really good backup option for your fullback is tantamount to having...well, two really good fullbacks, of the sort that both deserve plenty of minutes. If you have a youngster coming up who looks the business, you're alright - he can replace the older player gradually and naturally, so to speak. But if you don't your backup option isn't likely to be a top class player in the position: He's more likely to be someone who can also fill in at CB or in other positions.

This becomes even more tricky if you insist on fielding a left footed player at LB - having a top class (or very close) left footed LB as backup for...er...a top class left footed LB is unrealistic for most teams. And those who do often end up with at least one unhappy player, who isn't getting the minutes he strictly speaking should.

 

[Ekeke]

He takes chances in his own half trying to turn, which quality fullbacks do that? He's currently not good at defending. Other than that he's ok

 

[Comsmit]

i wouldnt be completely confident no, but dont feel we'd fall apart..he's certainly more than capable for the majority of teams that we expect to beat. might get found out against the better ones.

We would lose so much potency down the left flank. He would get found out against a lot of decent Premier League sides with tricky wide players.....because he just isn't that good.

 

[Crackers]

So, what's the next step for him for post people. Do we give him some game time as cover for Evra like we did last year. Think it was like 70% Evra, 30% Buttner.
Or do we give him less games there, and try and play him as a winger in a game or two, with an aim to bump up his price and sell him on. He's a good attacker and all, but will his defensive game improve enough to be a decent back up ever?

 

[Genius Me!]

So, what's the next step for him for post people. Do we give him some game time as cover for Evra like we did last year. Think it was like 70% Evra, 30% Buttner.
Or do we give him less games there, and try and play him as a winger in a game or two, with an aim to bump up his price and sell him on. He's a good attacker and all, but will his defensive game improve enough to be a decent back up ever?

If Buttner ever got game time on the left wing ahead of the likes of Adnan and Zaha I would literally flip my nut.

 

[Earthquake]

Shame he didn't get the loan to Celtic, would have been perfect, if they'd play him.

 

[Crackers]

If Buttner ever got game time on the left wing ahead of the likes of Adnan and Zaha I would literally flip my nut.

Same. He's not as good as them for the position, and I love those two more I'd say. He's not good enough for LB either though, at least not as this level. Play him in 3/4 matches near Christmas, bump up his price, and sell him to Besiktas or Celtic who wanted a loan of him.
Then get Contrao from RM on loan.

God, I don't even play FM and I'm acting like I do.

 

[krazyrobus]

My comparison was the 2 starting fullbacks and their 2 covers. Point was that it's pretty god damn hard to get better cover than him. Azpilicueta is as much of a left back as Fabio is.

I don't disagree with this. Getting better players is always a plus. Doesn't mean he's shit. We've had plenty of shit players play for us in the past. He's not that. He's performed better than players that were bought for much more money and had higher expectations. I just don't see the point in talking him down like that. Do it if he's shit. Not when he does alright in a Capital One Cup game against Liverpool where he dispossesses Suarez twice.

My comparison zoomed on his opposite numbers in the other clubs. Those players are clearly better than him. If those 3 clubs could achieve that, why can't we?

I didn't say he was shit, I said he wasn't up to utd standards. I'm sure he can go and forge a decent career for himself at a mid-table team. My opinion of him wasn't formed after this latest match, in which he did ok, it originated in the Fa cup tie against West Ham where his touch and poise were really no different to the other West Ham players. No match he has played has ever convinced me otherwise.

Replacements are 1 cruciate ligament injury away from being a starter the whole season, settling for average players will make us regress.

 

[711]

I think what pisses me off the most about Buttner is that from far he looks like Cleverley, even though really and truly he looks nothing like Cleverley. He wishes he could look like Cleverley. He probably wishes he was as good as Cleveley too.

I have that problem with Kagawa and Rafael. Sometimes I think 'What's Kagawa doing back there?' but of course it's Rafael. And sometimes 'Kagawa's done well to get up to the byline', and it turns out to be Rafael again. Actually it's nearly always Rafael. When Rafael's up to full fitness again we could probably just dispense with Kagawa altogether.

 

[Genius Me!]

I have that problem with Kagawa and Rafael. Sometimes I think 'What's Kagawa doing back there?' but of course it's Rafael. And sometimes 'Kagawa's done well to get up to the byline', and it turns out to be Rafael again. Actually it's nearly always Rafael. When Rafael's up to full fitness again we could probably just dispense with Kagawa altogether.

yeah, that happened to me the other day as well. My cousin said what's Rafael doing out of position and I said no that's Kagawa. And then later on in the game I got myself a bit mixed up with them at one point.

 

[Crackers]

yeah, that happened to me the other day as well. My cousin said what's Rafael doing out of position and I said no that's Kagawa. And then later on in the game I got myself a bit mixed up with them at one point.

 

[krazyrobus]

Kagawa and Rafael don't look anything alike in body shape or running style...

 

[711]

Kagawa and Rafael don't look anything alike in body shape or running style...

It is a puzzle I agree, I think it's something to do with the head from a distance. Not the face of course, just the general head shape.

 

[Tomuś]

Didn't they wear the same boots? Wasn't sure which is which once in the second half.

 

[Decotron]

Shouldn't be anywhere near the first team. So poor defensively