Shinji Kagawa

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noodlehair said:
I thought it was noticable throughout the first half that Jones and Buttner were the players being left in space but were so tame there wasn't really much point in giving either of them the ball.
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I agree with all that, but this is so true. Probably a tactical decision because neither were offering a genuine threat.

I thought the same thing happened against Liverpool with Buttner/Rafa, in that game it was partly due to the system because Pool played with no wingers and Henderson/Enrique at wingback (so they had no obvious candidates to pressure our fullbacks) but even so the thought crossed my mind that Buttner was a waste in a game that afforded the fullbacks so much space.
 
Haven't read this thread, I liked the look of him when he first arrived but am I the only one seriously underwhelmed by him since?

Seems to have all the tools, maybe better suited to a No 10 role which he's not good enough to play for Utd.

Needs to get his head down, realise he has it all to prove and keep his mouth shut if he wants to be a Utd player IMO.
 
Eyepopper said:
Haven't read this thread, I liked the look of him when he first arrived but am I the only one seriously underwhelmed by him since?

Seems to have all the tools, maybe better suited to a No 10 role which he's not good enough to play for Utd.

Needs to get his head down, realise he has it all to prove and keep his mouth shut if he wants to be a Utd player IMO.
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You're not the only one, I keep reading he should have the team built around him, he should be the main's playmaker but at no point he has earned that IMHO and since Rooney is there for at least one more season then Shinji will have to perform on this wide left/free role he has, perform very well and give Moyes headaches in terms of selections.
 
Made 4 tackles in the 45 mins he played yesterday. An interesting contribution to the team on top of the 2 key passes and general neat and tidy play
 
If we're playing him I would rather he plays a central role at the point of midfield with Rooney/Nani and Van Persie all moving around ahead of him. This gives necessarily takes the pressure off of Carrick and Fellani to create. Out wing backs needs to be far more disciplined however.
 
Ekeke said:
Made 4 tackles in the 45 mins he played yesterday. An interesting contribution to the team on top of the 2 key passes and general neat and tidy play
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He was good. It made little sense to take him off. Won't do his confidence much good and I thought he was starting to look confident yesterday.
 
George Owen said:
I didnt say its Januzaj fault... i blame Moyes 100% for the result.

and as for Macheda... well... he didnt enter the game on HT, he enter around min 65-70... and look the team he had around him. Worth to take that risk at that moment.

still dont understand what moyes was thinking.
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The team Macheda had around him that day was worse than the one we played against WBA. We had Gary Neville at centre-back, with O'Shea and Evans (who was nowhere near his current self) playing. Tévez and Nani were both atrocious that day, so were Fletcher and Carrick. And not just Macheda but another inexperienced kid, Welbeck was also sent on by Fergie.

Macheda was also far less experienced than Januzaj, the game was a lot more important than this one and we were 2-1 down when he came on, it wasn't 0-0. We sure as hell didn't lose this game because of Januzaj who was one of the few bright sparks in that dismal second half.
 
Ekeke said:
Made 4 tackles in the 45 mins he played yesterday. An interesting contribution to the team on top of the 2 key passes and general neat and tidy play
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He put in a good defensive shift which is clearly something he's working on because I've not seen that so much from Kagawa, and from that video of him on the previous page it's clear he closed people down early, pressed high up the pitch and tried to win the ball back several times. Created a couple of decent chances and played some nice through balls too. Not a perfect performance but definitely one of our better players in that first half I thought.
 
Eyepopper said:
Haven't read this thread, I liked the look of him when he first arrived but am I the only one seriously underwhelmed by him since?

Seems to have all the tools, maybe better suited to a No 10 role which he's not good enough to play for Utd.

Needs to get his head down, realise he has it all to prove and keep his mouth shut if he wants to be a Utd player IMO.
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Yup. My opinion too. Although the "mouth shut" bit is harsh. Haven't heard him complaining?

Speaking of complaining, it's amusing to see so many people complaining about the half time sub. We hadn't created enough chances in a game we needed to win, so Moyes made an early, attacking substition. Under Fergie, people constantly complained about him leaving subs too late. So far this season they've been complaining about Moyes not being attacking enough with subs and/or not making enough subs. There's also been a lot of complaining about Moyes not giving Januzaj enough of a chance. What would have happened if he took Rooney, Hernandez or Nani off? That's right. They would have complained.

I'm not even talking about a diverse set of opinions here. All these scenarios would have (or have done, in the past) involved complaints from the same fecking people!
 
I never got the impression he fitted into SAF's plans either. I'm not even sure we would have signed him if we knew we were getting Van Persie as well.
 
kps88 said:
I never got the impression he fitted into SAF's plans either. I'm not even sure we would have signed him if we knew we were getting Van Persie as well.
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I think that is exactly it. We signed him and then, against all odds, even in Fergie's mind, we got RVP.....which kind of made Kagawa a problem in some ways...
 
Ekeke said:
Made 4 tackles in the 45 mins he played yesterday. An interesting contribution to the team on top of the 2 key passes and general neat and tidy play
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Why are you in every thread I enter giving out tackling stats? :lol:

Ekeke said:
He's done brilliantly. What I like is that he isnt just scoring goals, but he's also made the joint most tackles in the league.
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Ekeke said:
So Dembele dominated the match against Chelsea. 8 successful dribbles and 4 tackles to account for his hard work.
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Ekeke said:
I feel like Khedira needs to improve. Illaramendi has made 6 tackles but still looks like he's getting overrun at times. Khedira has won the ball half as much
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He's providing some pretty good stats to be fair.

Keep it coming ekeke.
 
Eyepopper said:
Haven't read this thread, I liked the look of him when he first arrived but am I the only one seriously underwhelmed by him since?

Seems to have all the tools, maybe better suited to a No 10 role which he's not good enough to play for Utd.

Needs to get his head down, realise he has it all to prove and keep his mouth shut if he wants to be a Utd player IMO.
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My observation of over the last year is of Shinji providing pretty touches and turns without much end product.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yup. My opinion too. Although the "mouth shut" bit is harsh. Haven't heard him complaining?

Speaking of complaining, it's amusing to see so many people complaining about the half time sub. We hadn't created enough chances in a game we needed to win, so Moyes made an early, attacking substition. Under Fergie, people constantly complained about him leaving subs too late. So far this season they've been complaining about Moyes not being attacking enough with subs and/or not making enough subs. There's also been a lot of complaining about Moyes not giving Januzaj enough of a chance. What would have happened if he took Rooney, Hernandez or Nani off? That's right. They would have complained.

I'm not even talking about a diverse set of opinions here. All these scenarios would have (or have done, in the past) involved complaints from the same fecking people!
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I haven't been on here all that much but haven't seen anyone complaining about Janujaz not being given enough chances. Most people seem to think it's refreshing that he is being given chances.

It wasn't the making a change that I didn't agree with yesterday, it was that the one he made was completely pointless. If he'd changed the system or taken off one the players who weren't doing thier job (and there was a variety of choice) it would have made perfect sense...but he just took off one player who was doing ok and replaced them with another in the same system, who also did ok. The only noticable difference in the second half is that we got worse.

I thought the mistakes yesterday were playing two non fullbacks at fullback (WHY do we keep doing this when it has never once looked like a good idea?), then leaving them both on despite neither being able to do their job, starting Rio and then not taking him off after that ridiculous goal. Taking Anderson off for Fellaini when Carrick was playing like a fecking idiot.

A lot is probably to do with Moyes not really knowing the players yet and it'll take a fair bit more time for that to change, but until he does know them he should react to what's going on, on the pitch, which I don't think he did yesterday...and if Rio Ferdinand starts another game anytime soon I'll begin to worry whether player's egos are picking the team for Moyes. He needs to be stronger than picking players just because of the influence they might have on the dressing room.
 
Ekeke said:
Made 4 tackles in the 45 mins he played yesterday. An interesting contribution to the team on top of the 2 key passes and general neat and tidy play
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A couple of of those tackles were Shinji trying to win back the ball after easily getting pushed off the ball. He is in the team to be a creative force. To be fair, he has so far failed to impress.
 
noodlehair said:
A lot is probably to do with Moyes not really knowing the players yet and it'll take a fair bit more time for that to change, but until he does know them he should react to what's going on, on the pitch, which I don't think he did yesterday...and if Rio Ferdinand starts another game anytime soon I'll begin to worry whether player's egos are picking the team for Moyes. He needs to be stronger than picking players just because of the influence they might have on the dressing room.
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If Moyes does not yet know the players, surely he has enough people around him to tell him Smalling, Jones, are not full backs, and Buttner is out of his depth. I agree yesterdays defeat was in a big part not playing Rafael, and Evra.
 
He's a bit like Hernandez in that he's an awkward fit with our style but if played in his best position would be a top player. Both of these players have so much clever movement and no one fecking uses it, its infuriating.

Complaining that he's underperforming is ridiculous when he's been shifted into a position he isn't suited to.
 
Sultan said:
If Moyes does not yet know the players, surely he has enough people around him to tell him Smalling, Jones, are not full backs, and Buttner is out of his depth. I agree yesterdays defeat was in a big part not playing Rafael, and Evra.
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And one of smalling or vidic for me. Neither Evans nor rio are great physically and I think we missed a trick in not playing a physical centre back or maybe fellaini in midfield.
 
Sultan said:
If Moyes does not yet know the players, surely he has enough people around him to tell him Smalling, Jones, are not full backs, and Buttner is out of his depth. I agree yesterdays defeat was in a big part not playing Rafael, and Evra.
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So, just to understand, the manager of United should be told about players rather than giving them a chance and assessing them himself. Players on the team. Used frequently in those exact positions last season. This is what we're now holding against the new manager?
 
It's pretty hard to be a creative force, and he very could be even from the wing, when your barely been given the confidence to play the odd full game, yet alone playing 60 minutes consistently. Silva, Mata, Hazard, Cazorla, Oscar....all played had well over twice as much as much as Kagawa has by October in their second seasons, playmakers need time. Him and Rooney should be key in behind RVP, the other spot mostly rotating between Nani and Valencia.....then Young and Zaha backups, as it is, Kagawa is barely above Zaha.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
So, just to understand, the manager of United should be told about players rather than giving them a chance and assessing them himself. Players on the team. Used frequently in those exact positions last season. This is what we're now holding against the new manager?
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Point taken.

If I was the new manager I'd initially play my best team, and hope to get some good results on board, build up confidence and then start using the squad players once the pressure is off.
 
So, what would everyone on here be saying about Rooney if he'd been given the same amount of playing time and played out of position?
 
Sultan said:
Point taken.

If I was the new manager I'd initially play my best team, and hope to get some good results on board, build up confidence and then start using the squad players once the pressure is off.
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He still doesn't know what the best team is and judging by the Caf, neither do the fans. Time to face up to the fact he was left with a decent mess.
 
Zen said:
It's pretty hard to be a creative force, and he very could be even from the wing, when your barely been given the confidence to play the odd full game, yet alone playing 60 minutes consistently. Silva, Mata, Hazard, Cazorla, Oscar....all played had well over twice as much as much as Kagawa has by October in their second seasons, playmakers need time. Him and Rooney should be key in behind RVP, the other spot mostly rotating between Nani and Valencia.....then Young and Zaha backups, as it is, Kagawa is barely above Zaha.
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United have not been schooled playing two number tens behind a striker. It's almost always been wingers.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
He still doesn't know what the best team is and judging by the Caf, neither do the fans. Time to face up to the fact he was left with a decent mess.
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Hardly a mess if we're to believe Sir Alex.

"This current crop of players is a stronger squad than the treble winning side of 1999."
 
Sultan said:
Hardly a mess if we're to believe Sir Alex.

"This current crop of players is a stronger squad than the treble winning side of 1999."
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We've never replaced Keane and that remains the biggest problem with the squad today.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
We've never replaced Keane and that remains the biggest problem with the squad today.
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We've actually done pretty well since Keane left. Anyway, teams evolve without former greats. We can't keep reminiscing.
 
Sultan said:
We've actually done pretty well since Keane left. Anyway, teams evolve without former greats. We can't keep reminiscing.
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Yes, but we haven't replace him. We need a fire breathing man who can push the squad and be creative. Hasn't existed since he left.
 
Sultan said:
Point taken.

If I was the new manager I'd initially play my best team, and hope to get some good results on board, build up confidence and then start using the squad players once the pressure is off.
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He tried that up until yesterday and got a horrible, tired looking performance against City. Freshened things up mid-week and got some decent displays from fringe players. WBA was the perfect game to reward those players with a show of faith, while adding in enough of our best first teamers to still win comfortably.

Genuinely baffled by the criticism of the team he picked. Was there any before the game kicked off? Fergie's team selections were occasionally quite hard to understand. Can't say the same about the team Moyes picked yesterday. Although, as has always happened, dropped points results in fans being wise with hindsight.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
He tried that up until yesterday and got a horrible, tired looking performance against City. Freshened things up mid-week and got some decent displays from fringe players. WBA was the perfect game to reward those players with a show of faith, while adding in enough of our best teamers to still win comfortably.

Genuinely baffled by the criticism of the team he picked. Was there any before the game kicked off? Fergie's team selections were occasionally quite hard to understand. Can't say the same about the team Moyes picked yesterday.
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No, dropping Vidic, Rafael and Evra when RVP was already missing in a game we really needed to win wasn't baffling at all. And yes, myself and others said it was very risky before the game, but most were put off by lack of Ashley Young and Antonio Valencia (who also should have started considering he has looked okay recently) to see it for what it was. Anderson I can understand, but I don't think I'll be able to understand if he starts again sometime in the near future. With the exception of Carrick, the side he picked was weaker than the one that faced Liverpool.
 
mickeza said:
No, dropping Vidic, Rafael and Evra when RVP was already missing in a game we really needed to win wasn't baffling at all. And yes, myself and others said it was very risky before the game, but most were put off by lack of Ashley Young and Antonio Valencia (who also should have started considering he has looked okay recently) to see it for what it was. Anderson I can understand, but I don't think I'll be able to understand if he starts again sometime in the near future. With the exception of Carrick, the side he picked was weaker than the one that faced Liverpool.
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Which presumably might be something to do with WBA being weaker opposition than Liverpool?
 
I think most on here pointed out we could have done with a Da Silva or two before kickoff.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You know people are stretching when the most contentious selection decision they can find is at fullback!
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Well both Jones and Buttner did look woefully out of place. Both going forward and at the back. In hindsight, I don't think anyone can argue that he got that wrong? Particularly with two specialist full backs who spent the whole game on the bench.

I agree with the point though that this was probably as close to a "perfect" lineup we could have got in terms of what most people were shouting for.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Which presumably might be something to do with WBA being weaker opposition than Liverpool?
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Firstly one was the league cup and the other was the sixth league game of the season where we kinda needed to win because of the somewhat mediocre start, and secondly, that Liverpool lineup was described as a second team by many, so that was my point, but you knew that anyway, you just wanted to be flippant.

And our attacking fullbacks are rather important to how we play so I have no idea what your point is.
 
kps88 said:
Well both Jones and Buttner did look woefully out of place. Both going forward and at the back. In hindsight, I don't think anyone can argue that he got that wrong? Particularly with two specialist full backs who spent the whole game on the bench.

I agree with the point though that this was probably as close to a "perfect" lineup we could have got in terms of what most people were shouting for.
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Hardly. Vidic and Smalling are both better CB than Evans and Rio. Jones and Büttner are shit fullbacks. So the whole defence was a shit decision.
 
It reminds me a little of the Veron situation. A quality player that we bought from abroad, who we know has talent but we'd have to make a fundamental change to the team in order to incorporate him properly and play him in the place of one of our most proven players (Scholes/Rooney) and change our system (from using two midfielders to using three).

I think in both scenario's we have asked the player to first of all prove himself as a player in the system we currently play and once they start putting in the performances and becoming important to the team, they earn the right to start having the team shaped around them. The problem with that is that it's very difficult for any player to put good performances in in an unfamiliar role and without those performances they aren't given a consistent run of games and it just escalates from there.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
He tried that up until yesterday and got a horrible, tired looking performance against City. Freshened things up mid-week and got some decent displays from fringe players. WBA was the perfect game to reward those players with a show of faith, while adding in enough of our best first teamers to still win comfortably.

Genuinely baffled by the criticism of the team he picked. Was there any before the game kicked off? Fergie's team selections were occasionally quite hard to understand. Can't say the same about the team Moyes picked yesterday. Although, as has always happened, dropped points results in fans being wise with hindsight.
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The performance against Liverpool wasn't actually that good, and the result masked our performance. I understand Sir Alex would not have got the same level of criticism for picking the very same team. The media and fans are going to highlight every possible excuse and reason for teams failures, and because this squad were the champions last season the focus will firmly be on Moyes.

Result apart, the teams performance despite keeping possession was laboured, lacked any intensity and was so one dimensional and predictable we as fans could predict a few passes in advance which player would be getting a pass. Just so easy for opposition to plan, and play against.
 
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