Moyes So Far!

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pocco said:
The thing is, in preseason most people accepted it might take a while to get going. They acepted that we had a hard start and would feck up a bit. Now it has happened they just lose their shit.

I'd never judge any manager after so few games.
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I'm a bit unsure about the hard start bit too. I mean, this is not Europe - it's not like we have several teams that are better than or a level above United. For all the 'hard starts' we could have possibly had domestically - we were still recognised as the best team in the country not long ago. If the best team in the country had to play the other good teams, yes we may expect tough games, but not to lose to everyone surely. Actually, we of course drew with Chelsea - but in general, it would have been fine to not take maximum points, but we surely should have been doing better than we did. After all, any big teams facing us should also have us down in their 'nightmare start' category.

Then you also have to consider that City and Chelsea are not settled units themselves. They have also changed their managers. Spurs are flying high, and they have pretty much bought a new team. We are not the only team with instability at the moment. Yes, none of the new managers are replacing someone who has been at the helm for 27 years, but I don't understand how much relevance that has to their players who have not themselves been there for 27 years. Chelsea and City have a huge player and manager turnover, so their players being unsettled is perhaps more expected. They are regularly integrating new players into the first team, and learning new ideals. Yet, they still managed to slap the shit out of us without it being an excuse.

Now I know our games have been tough, and I feel that, especially given our circumstances, that provides mitigation for us not being brilliant. However, I am not convinced it is mitigation for us to be as bad as we have been. Our players are professionals, and they haven't had a sudden caretaker managed thrust upon them. Their manager is new, but he has also had an entire pre-season with them too. The fact is, we have not been good enough. We have gone past being acceptably poor (given the circumstances) and ventured into unacceptably poor, in my view. The only thing is we have not been unacceptably poor for long enough yet for it to be considered an issue that requires drastic measures. That does not mean we should imply that we are operating at a level that is normal/expected because we have a new manager. I, for one, am not judging Moyes on a whole just yet. I am, however, judging his start as not being good enough. Not, not good enough for Ferguson. I mean not good enough for Moyes.
 
He's being too fecking conservative, play what we started with Smalling instead of Rio and Rafael/Fabio-Evra as fullbacks and we would have walked that game.

That's the one thing I hope he takes from the game: not playing Young-Valencia doesn't mean he should play less aggressive fullbacks.
 
Basically his start as a manager, all things considered, has been very underwhelming. The transfer window shambles, although surely not all by his fault, does not reflect well on him. His performances in the big matches both in terms of team selection and tactics obviously hasn't paid off. And if anything we've regressed in terms of general play as the start of the season has moved along.

I can't see us being anywhere near challenging for the title if we don't raise our game several levels even from the okay-ish performances against Chelsea and Palace. And Moyes and the team have put the new regime under intense scrutiny by some of the results so far.

It doesn't help he's saying all the wrong things to the media either.

Basically, the shit has hit the fan about much quicker than I feared even in my worst predictions for the start of the season. To answer a question B20 asked earlier in the thread, albeit partly as a wind-up:
No, there's not much else he could've done to look out of his depth as United manager so far.

Credit to him though for getting Rooney back to his best and keeping him, that's at least saved us from embarassment a couple of times already.
 
marjen said:
Basically his start as a manager, all things considered, has been very underwhelming. The transfer window shambles, although surely not all by his fault, does not reflect well on him. His performances in the big matches both in terms of team selection and tactics obviously hasn't paid off. And if anything we've regressed in terms of general play as the start of the season has moved along.

I can't see us being anywhere near challenging for the title if we don't raise our game several levels even from the okay-ish performances against Chelsea and Palace. And Moyes and the team have put the new regime under intense scrutiny by some of the results so far.

It doesn't help he's saying all the wrong things to the media either.

Basically, the shit has hit the fan about much quicker than I feared even in my worst predictions for the start of the season. To answer a question B20 asked earlier in the thread, albeit partly as a wind-up:
No, there's not much else he could've done to look out of his depth as United manager so far.

Credit to him though for getting Rooney back to his best and keeping him, that's at least saved us from embarassment a couple of times already.
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I don't get the credit for Moyes keeping Rooney and for Rodgers keeping Suarez. They kept them against their will by all accounts, and the club only did that by refusing to accept any bids.

That said, credit to him for getting him playing at his very, very best.
 
Rozay said:
I don't get the credit for Moyes keeping Rooney and for Rodgers keeping Suarez. They kept them against their will by all accounts, and the club only did that by refusing to accept any bids.

That said, credit to him for getting him playing at his very, very best.
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Compare the actions Rodgers and Moyes to Wengers feeble attempts to keep his players against their wishes and it's becomes clearer IMO.
 
It's a joy to me for me to see this thread grow to slightly prove some points against the haters. What is not a joy is how completely and utterly shite we have been in most of our games. There has been a couple of games where we have been a class act, but we are killing our bread and butter in the league at the moment.

The cracks were there in pre-season, but noooo pre-season means f-all! Now the first few games means f-alll too? How about the first half of the season? What about the first season? You know what I'll accept an argument for all of them. SAF took a few years, but things are different now, we've built a much grander platform than SAF had to start off with.

It feels a little like the obvious pit falls are coming to bite Moyes on the arse. I complained about removing key coaches, changing too much behind the scene and guess what so did SAF. I complained about pre-season and now the season has started it is easy to see the momentum was not there. I complained about the transfer window and guess what we've not made the signings and now there is talk of lack of quality.

Well Moyes step to the plate. I'm sure he can do it. I think our team are struggling in games because they are being pushed too hard in training, but hopefully we'll see long term gain from this.

The quality of the squad was obvious and hopefully now Moyes has had his fingers burned in the transfer window along with Woodward, they will know what it takes to be the big dog and trying to make big signings.

He'll also start getting to know the squad. Even SAF gave a few players a few too many chances, but taking Fletcher and Evans and to some extent even Evra when he started, this persistence can come with reward. Moyes is at least recognising the new generation of talent and giving them a chance.

I think Moyes is out of his depth, but he probably has stronger foundations than any manager who would have come in and been a hit for a year or two. I feel like we'll have more pain to come, but as happened with Fergie we need to take a leap of faith and continue to back him. But while doing that, step up the game Moyes!
 
Fergus' son said:
Compare the actions Rodgers and Moyes to Wengers feeble attempts to keep his players against their wishes and it's becomes clearer IMO.
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Yep, the key difference is that Wenger's players were not protected by the same security of contract. Arsenal denied Febregas a move until they were ready to do so on the basis that his contract allowed them to do so.
 
Commadus said:
http://www1.skysports.com/football/...s-rejected-sir-alex-fergusons-advice-on-staff

Just what I thought.
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That's the saddest part about this manager we have at the helm - getting rid of all the coaching staff and dismantling from the inside out a very efficient, smooth running machine. He got rid of Rene Muelensteen, Eric Steele and Mike Phelan and changed the training regime for the players. They're clearly not responding.
And he's a PR nightmare whenever he opens his mouth. On top of that he and Ed Woodward made us look so small time and amateurish during the transfer season.
 
I can't shake that niggling feeling that he has a hint of the Hodgson's about him but I'm still pretty much blindly trusting Sir Alex to have seen something in Moyes that I don't really see.
 
Suedesi said:
That's the saddest part about this manager we have at the helm - getting rid of all the coaching staff and dismantling from the inside out a very efficient, smooth running machine. He got rid of Rene Muelensteen, Eric Steele and Mike Phelan and changed the training regime for the players. They're clearly not responding.
And he's a PR nightmare whenever he opens his mouth. On top of that he and Ed Woodward made us look so small time and amateurish during the transfer season.
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Get a fecking grip you loon.

Christ we need these guys to get a job soon, if anyone will have them, so they can stop bumping up their CVs in public.
 
Rozay said:
I don't get the credit for Moyes keeping Rooney and for Rodgers keeping Suarez. They kept them against their will by all accounts, and the club only did that by refusing to accept any bids.

That said, credit to him for getting him playing at his very, very best.
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Obviously he could've made the decision to feck him off.

Which he didn't. Which was the right decision. Which is paying off (so far). So credit to him for that, it's one of the few decisions he's made that have worked out well for us (thus far).
 
Fergus' son said:
Compare the actions Rodgers and Moyes to Wengers feeble attempts to keep his players against their wishes and it's becomes clearer IMO.
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How? Arsenal seem to be doing better now than when they had players who didnt want to be there. Same with Spurs
 
Suedesi said:
That's the saddest part about this manager we have at the helm - getting rid of all the coaching staff and dismantling from the inside out a very efficient, smooth running machine. He got rid of Rene Muelensteen, Eric Steele and Mike Phelan and changed the training regime for the players. They're clearly not responding.
And he's a PR nightmare whenever he opens his mouth. On top of that he and Ed Woodward made us look so small time and amateurish during the transfer season.
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Apart from all this though it has gone swimmingly
 
charleysurf said:
Get a fecking grip you loon.

Christ we need these guys to get a job soon, if anyone will have them, so they can stop bumping up their CVs in public.
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By all accounts, Fergie was not hands on with training and the preparations. So the backroom guys deserve a lot of credit. Why get rid of them? For Phil Neville and Ryan Giggs who are still learning the ropes?
 
RedTillI'mDead said:
It's a joy to me for me to see this thread grow to slightly prove some points against the haters. What is not a joy is how completely and utterly shite we have been in most of our games. There has been a couple of games where we have been a class act, but we are killing our bread and butter in the league at the moment.

The cracks were there in pre-season, but noooo pre-season means f-all! Now the first few games means f-alll too? How about the first half of the season? What about the first season? You know what I'll accept an argument for all of them. SAF took a few years, but things are different now, we've built a much grander platform than SAF had to start off with.

It feels a little like the obvious pit falls are coming to bite Moyes on the arse. I complained about removing key coaches, changing too much behind the scene and guess what so did SAF. I complained about pre-season and now the season has started it is easy to see the momentum was not there. I complained about the transfer window and guess what we've not made the signings and now there is talk of lack of quality.

Well Moyes step to the plate. I'm sure he can do it. I think our team are struggling in games because they are being pushed too hard in training, but hopefully we'll see long term gain from this.

The quality of the squad was obvious and hopefully now Moyes has had his fingers burned in the transfer window along with Woodward, they will know what it takes to be the big dog and trying to make big signings.

He'll also start getting to know the squad. Even SAF gave a few players a few too many chances, but taking Fletcher and Evans and to some extent even Evra when he started, this persistence can come with reward. Moyes is at least recognising the new generation of talent and giving them a chance.

I think Moyes is out of his depth, but he probably has stronger foundations than any manager who would have come in and been a hit for a year or two. I feel like we'll have more pain to come, but as happened with Fergie we need to take a leap of faith and continue to back him. But while doing that, step up the game Moyes!
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a reasoned post, but this bit is based on pure assumption. its a rubbish point to be fair and im not having a go. all you know is that apparantly moyes trains teams hard. well look how it worked at a much inferior team, are our poor gentle players not ready for it. Every single problem we have this season was there last season, moyes mistake has been not improving what was a glaringly shite and predictable midfield. its truly that simple. we have no chance of defending with our midfield and nor do we have any chance of doing something other than what we do. its appalling, and has been for years and any half decent team knows exactly how to stifle us.
 
It's not that he won't learn or that I don't believe he will improve. It's just that I'm unsure of the patience in today's game even at a club like United. And even while learning the trade as a top club manager, there has to be some minimum requirement that Moyes will have to fulfill.

For me, personally, I'd find it very hard to accept a season outside the top four. Because that breeds uncertainty, it gives other clubs advantages that we're used to having and it makes the pressure on him to succeed even greater. There's also economical disadvantages and the difficulty with keeping hold of our best players, having seen a shaky start to Moyes's tenure, if this is to happen.

Also I can't imagine recruitment getting any easier, and it's damn well proven challenging enough already, if we fail to make the CL.

I think he'll get the axe if we're outside the top four positions come may, unfortunately.
 
Suedesi said:
By all accounts, Fergie was not hands on with training and the preparations. So the backroom guys deserve a lot of credit. Why get rid of them? For Phil Neville and Ryan Giggs who are still learning the ropes?
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Let's all hope that Rene and the rest go to Fulham so, so we can see the title contenders they turn them into. All this time I thought Rio ferdinand had reached the heights of football through skill and determination, but all along it was the magic of Mike Phelan that made him tick. Without him he's a pub footballer.

Mike Phelan. The greatest coach who ever lived.
 
Players are getting away with fecking murder by the way. they have looked lazy and headless numerous times this season and last and we are questioning everything but them. they need to get their act together more than anyone.
 
Suedesi said:
By all accounts, Fergie was not hands on with training and the preparations. So the backroom guys deserve a lot of credit. Why get rid of them? For Phil Neville and Ryan Giggs who are still learning the ropes?
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Yeah, that would make sense if Moyes had been like Fergie in that regard. But he is far more hands-on. And so the old set-up wasn't ideal for him. It doesn't have to be more complicated than that. Besides, Moyes wanted to keep Rene - that has been established now. But it wasn't to be - he couldn't have remained in exactly the same role, again because of Moyes' more hands-on approach. Rene has acknowledged this himself - he wasn't frozen out, it just wasn't an ideal situation.
 
charleysurf said:
Let's all hope that Rene and the rest go to Fulham so, so we can see the title contenders they turn them into. All this time I thought Rio ferdinand had reached the heights of football through skill and determination, but all along it was the magic of Mike Phelan that made him tick. Without him he's a pub footballer.

Mike Phelan. The greatest coach who ever lived.
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Fine, enjoy Roy Hodgson Mk 2.
 
SER19 said:
Players are getting away with fecking murder by the way. they have looked lazy and headless numerous times this season and last and we are questioning everything but them. they need to get their act together more than anyone.
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Indeed. But right now that will inevitably be traced back to "Roy Hodgson Mk 2" as well. Everything from the weather to the economy, y'know.
 
Suedesi said:
By all accounts, Fergie was not hands on with training and the preparations. So the backroom guys deserve a lot of credit. Why get rid of them? For Phil Neville and Ryan Giggs who are still learning the ropes?
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Just the most recent backroom guys specifically? Or the long list of assorted different backroom guys that worked with Fergie throughout his 25 years at the club?

Christ, it was bad enough when people were still holding a torch for Carlos Queroz, now Terry fecking Phelan has become the heartbeat of our team in his absence.

A good coaching team is important but it's the manager who really matters. If Moyes is the man to take over from Fergie and run this team the way he wants then it stands to reason he will get the backroom guys he thinks he needs to do his job. It's already very fecking tiresome hearing all the moaning about the exact same changes that accompany every other managerial change at every other club. Ironic that a lot of people most disgruntled by this would seem most willing to get Moyes out and someone else in his place. I hope you can cope with all the backroom upheaval that will bring.
 
Moyes was always going to be on a steep learning curve and we’ve had a disappointing start but that’s no reason to be calling for his head. Finishing outside the top four wouldn’t be a reason to sack him either and I don’t for a moment think United would do that. The point is he’s learning the biggest managerial job in football and if we got rid of him and got someone else in, whoever it was would also be on a learning curve. Sure Moyes is making mistakes but it makes sense to let him learn from them rather than sack him and have someone else making his own mistakes. We used to laugh at other clubs for having a managerial revolving door, I don’t want to see United doing it.

I do expect him to learn though. In my opinion, wholesale changes in the backroom staff was a mistake. The most obvious consequence of that mistake was the decision to approach our ‘difficult’ start by trying to play as many of the same players as possible in the opening stretch. I think that was a mistake that wouldn’t have gone unchallenged if any of the backroom staff had stayed. It’s led to (for example) Rio playing 6 games on the bounce for the first time in years and good players like Evans and Kagawa not getting enough football… which leads to them being undercooked when they’re needed.

The other area that has changed remarkably with Sir Alex and David Gill leaving is that we seem to be making far too many public comments, be it about individual players’ form or transfer business. I think that’s a mistake also. I’d be surprised if Moyes thought commenting on players in public was going to make them more motivated. And personally I only want to know about a player we’re signing when he’s signed – certainly don’t want to hear that we’re chasing a player who we have no chance of signing – not officially, from the club. And I don’t want to hear excuses (‘anyone would have struggled with that run of fixtures’) – that just gives footballers a ready made reason for not playing well. I know it’s not fair to make the comparison but I’m sure Sir Alex wouldn’t have said anything much about the opening games being difficult, he’d have just got on with it and expected the players to do the same.

These mistakes need to be learned from but I think the best person to learn from them is the man who’s making them. I was bloody angry coming away from Old Trafford after the West Brom game but Moyes needs time. Give it to him and it will pay off in the long run.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Christ, it was bad enough when people were still holding a torch for Carlos Queroz, now Terry fecking Phelan has become the heartbeat of our team in his absence.
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He's only been gone five minutes and we're already forgetting his name. Poor bastard.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Indeed. But right now that will inevitably be traced back to "Roy Hodgson Mk 2" as well. Everything from the weather to the economy, y'know.
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Who's managing the players? Who's responsible for coaching, motivating and firing them up? Certainly players wouldn't feel motivated if the "Chosen One" says we can't win the CL and that we need to fight to make it past the group stages.
 
Suedesi said:
Who's managing the players? Who's responsible for coaching, motivating and firing them up? Certainly players wouldn't feel motivated if the "Chosen One" says we can't win the CL and that we need to fight to make it past the group stages.
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Would they feel motivated enough to have a better start to the season than the other "Chosen One"? Only there's not much in it, is there?
 
kf said:
Moyes was always going to be on a steep learning curve and we’ve had a disappointing start but that’s no reason to be calling for his head. Finishing outside the top four wouldn’t be a reason to sack him either and I don’t for a moment think United would do that. The point is he’s learning the biggest managerial job in football and if we got rid of him and got someone else in, whoever it was would also be on a learning curve. Sure Moyes is making mistakes but it makes sense to let him learn from them rather than sack him and have someone else making his own mistakes. We used to laugh at other clubs for having a managerial revolving door, I don’t want to see United doing it.

I do expect him to learn though. In my opinion, wholesale changes in the backroom staff was a mistake. The most obvious consequence of that mistake was the decision to approach our ‘difficult’ start by trying to play as many of the same players as possible in the opening stretch. I think that was a mistake that wouldn’t have gone unchallenged if any of the backroom staff had stayed. It’s led to (for example) Rio playing 6 games on the bounce for the first time in years and good players like Evans and Kagawa not getting enough football… which leads to them being undercooked when they’re needed.

The other area that has changed remarkably with Sir Alex and David Gill leaving is that we seem to be making far too many public comments, be it about individual players’ form or transfer business. I think that’s a mistake also. I’d be surprised if Moyes thought commenting on players in public was going to make them more motivated. And personally I only want to know about a player we’re signing when he’s signed – certainly don’t want to hear that we’re chasing a player who we have no chance of signing – not officially, from the club. And I don’t want to hear excuses (‘anyone would have struggled with that run of fixtures’) – that just gives footballers a ready made reason for not playing well. I know it’s not fair to make the comparison but I’m sure Sir Alex wouldn’t have said anything much about the opening games being difficult, he’d have just got on with it and expected the players to do the same.

These mistakes need to be learned from but I think the best person to learn from them is the man who’s making them. I was bloody angry coming away from Old Trafford after the West Brom game but Moyes needs time. Give it to him and it will pay off in the long run.
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Excuses in early?
 
Suedesi said:
Who's managing the players? Who's responsible for coaching, motivating and firing them up? Certainly players wouldn't feel motivated if the "Chosen One" says we can't win the CL and that we need to fight to make it past the group stages.
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They've been poor. They looked like feckin' corpses against City. That's what we know. To what extent that is Moyes' fault we do not know. It's his responsibility at the end of the day - but that's another matter. You have zero faith in the man - hence you're likely to attribute it solely to him. We've had slow starts before, with the players looking like they couldn't be arsed - whose fault was that? SAF's? Or the players themselves? Probably a combination, I'd say myself, but it remains a fact the manager can't get out there and play for 'em.
 
Brwned said:
I can't shake that niggling feeling that he has a hint of the Hodgson's about him but I'm still pretty much blindly trusting Sir Alex to have seen something in Moyes that I don't really see.
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Search your feelings, Brwned. You know it to be true.
 
This bullshit about SAF takes a few years means Moyes should have the same. SAF took 5 years to take a perenial midtable (then) team plagued with problems and make them champion and continue to do so (hence he always got the contract extension, he would have been sacked long ago if he didn't manage to win anything in 6-7 years)

If we want to make a comparison, Moyes should have take 5 years to make the current Reigning Champion into a treble x treble winners to even make it comparable.

Our squad is not this bad, and he got it all wrong. Take a look at Everton, does it takes a season for Martinez to at least start them playing like a team? Does a shift from Pep to Tito Villanova means that Barcelona suddenly playing like a midtable team and losing 4-0 against Madrid?

He is simply not good enough for the job for now, hopefully he will imrpove dramatically, but he will have to do so fast, we're going down the drain fast at this rate. Lack of pulling power, inexperienced joke of a manager (in the eye of many), aging squad, 7 from 18, lack of open play goals, dodgy press conference, defeatism.

Tell me, is this the core value we envisioned he will impose back then?

I know its early and give him time all over again, but at this rate, he fails to tick any "decent" accomplishment so far (and yes, you can achieve something good in 6 matches)

We're not asking for us to runaway with the league, but at this rate we are going into relegation area

What are the odds we can overcome an 8 points deficit on not only Arsenal, but Liverpool, Chelsea and probably City. I feel confident of doing so under SAF, but this is Moyes we're talking about.
 
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