Shinji Kagawa

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Pogue Mahone said:
Wasn't this exposed as some sort of myth?
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Think it wasn't the official one but one for a big newspaper of magazine of some sort?

Either way he was fecking fantastic for Dortmund and instrumental in everything they did. You just have to listen to Klopp talk about him to know how valued he was and still is. He's a fantastic footballer that I wish we'd see more of in his natural position.
 
Potentially yes. In fact over the last several games I'd have dropped Van Persie who looked a tad off and frustrated. Not to mention Van Persie was injured the past 2 games so could have played then. I much prefer Rooney as a number 9 too. I think he's a bit too wasteful playing the number 10.
 
Yeah, I know the theory, Kagawa as collateral damage following a summer of over-achievement in the transfer window. Either way, Id just like to see him get a run of games to see what he can do in that position.
 
Adebesi said:
Id certainly try him out there, I agree with Trigg, id be happy to see Rooney play furthest forward with Kagawa behind him. Or just drop Rooney altogether, he's a man he's proven he can take it in his stride.
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Rooney's been our best player this season and looked like getting back to his very best. Can't see the logic in sticking him on the bench because we might get a better performance out of player that hasn't had a full pre-season and never looked fully at home in PL football. Van Persie also has to play. Especially in the big games, or when we're desperate for results.

In the two games Van Persie missed out on, Rooney continued in his best position and Hernandez got some much-needed game time (including one absolutely cracking performance). Meanwhile Kagawa got to work on his fitness and sharpness playing the same position he plays for his national team. Really don't see why Moyes should have done anything different.
 
I dont disagree with any of that Pogue, I am not necessarily thinking about timing, Im certainly not calling for Rooney to be dropped tomorrow or for any game specifically. He has been outstanding this season, and my comment about dropping him was entirely facetious, which I think is obvious. My point is, in all honesty, more retrospective, if anything. You say Kagawa has never looked at home in the PL, I think the way he has been used is at least partly, and probably largely responsible for that. And i would still like to see Kagawa play in his preferred position at some stage, perhaps when injuries permit. If RVP gets injured, push Rooney further up. If Rooney is out, play Kagawa in his position. We have had these opportunities, we never take them. I think Kagawa could be brilliant in that position but at the moment we dont know, do we? If we give him a run of games there and it doesnt work out, at least we tried, and then we can go back to how it was.
 
Adebesi said:
I think he was Dortmund's player of the season, not necessarily the Bundesliga player of the season.
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I'd say he was by far the best player in the league in the second half of the season, when Dortmund turned an average start into a record breaking year. He was brilliant in most big games and he carried them a few times when they struggled against weaker teams. Dortmund were out of all European competitions, so we're only talking about 20 games here (17 league games and 3 cup games), in which he became the main player for his team. With Götze out with his long term injury, Kagawa needed to step up and he did. Though, Lewandowski and Gündogan also made a huge step and started to play brilliant regularly at the same time Kagawa did (and they continued to do so after he left, so I wouldn't say they raised their game because of Kagawa). In the first half of that season, Kagawa still struggled to get back to his best after being out for about 6 months. He was average at best in the CL games and Götze carried the team in the league, that's why in most people's opinion he didn't deserve to win the individual award.

Reus rightfully won the official Bundesliga player of the season award, because he was consistently brilliant throughout the year and was arguably the main reason (other than the manager of course) for turning a team almost relegated the year before into a team fighting for the CL places and leaving teams like Leverkusen and Schalke behind. Of course Dante and Neustädter were also important players in Gladbach's run, but Reus was imo the most important one. All 3 left for bigger clubs that summer.
 
Adebesi said:
I dont disagree with any of that Pogue, I am not necessarily thinking about timing, Im certainly not calling for Rooney to be dropped tomorrow or for any game specifically. He has been outstanding this season, and my comment about dropping him was entirely facetious, which I think is obvious. My point is, in all honesty, more retrospective, if anything. You say Kagawa has never looked at home in the PL, I think the way he has been used is at least partly, and probably largely responsible for that. And i would still like to see Kagawa play in his preferred position at some stage, perhaps when injuries permit. If RVP gets injured, push Rooney further up. If Rooney is out, play Kagawa in his position. We have had these opportunities, we never take them. I think Kagawa could be brilliant in that position but at the moment we dont know, do we? If we give him a run of games there and it doesnt work out, at least we tried, and then we can go back to how it was.
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Aye, fair enough. I'm so used to Moyes getting it in the neck I assumed we were discussing this season.

Fergie probably could have played Kagawa more last season. Only he knows why not. In his defence, Kagawa blew hot and cold whenever he did get the chance. I put this down to adapting to a new league and hoped we'd see the best of him this season. He wouldn't be the first player who was on the fringes on his debut PL season only to become a top player in his second and subsequent seasons, that's for sure. It's also possible (but, I hope unlikely) that he will never adapt to the rigours of PL football and history will prove that his one or two really good seasons before were a player over-achieving before regressing to his natural level. Again, this has happened plenty of times before.

Either way, what bothers me is this idea that first Fergie and now Moyes are blind to the attributes of a player that hundreds of people posting on message boards have a much better idea about. If he's good enough he'll force his way into the team. If he's really really fecking good he will displace Rooney and play as number 10. Meanwhile he just needs to make the most of whatever opportunity he gets. He hasn't done that yet but there are some encouraging signs and his attitude is faultless.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Rooney's been our best player this season and looked like getting back to his very best. Can't see the logic in sticking him on the bench because we might get a better performance out of player that hasn't had a full pre-season and never looked fully at home in PL football. Van Persie also has to play. Especially in the big games, or when we're desperate for results.

In the two games Van Persie missed out on, Rooney continued in his best position and Hernandez got some much-needed game time (including one absolutely cracking performance). Meanwhile Kagawa got to work on his fitness and sharpness playing the same position he plays for his national team. Really don't see why Moyes should have done anything different.
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Why? Exactly the same as Ive said about Rooney a million times, out of form, get benched.
 
I think confidence is an issue. I'm pretty sure Kagawa implied that last season too. Plays within himself at times when I'd just love him to take a game by the scruff of the neck and impose himself on it. Chances are the opposition will struggle to deal with him. We haven't seen that consistently enough yet unfortunately, but at the same time, even when not in the best of form he creates more chances than some of our other attacking players.
 
Balu said:
I'd say he was by far the best player in the league in the second half of the season, when Dortmund turned an average start into a record breaking year. He was brilliant in most big games and he carried them a few times when they struggled against weaker teams. Dortmund were out of all European competitions, so we're only talking about 20 games here (17 league games and 3 cup games), in which he became the main player for his team. With Götze out with his long term injury, Kagawa needed to step up and he did. Though, Lewandowski and Gündogan also made a huge step and started to play brilliant regularly at the same time Kagawa did (and they continued to do so after he left, so I wouldn't say they raised their game because of Kagawa). In the first half of that season, Kagawa still struggled to get back to his best after being out for about 6 months. He was average at best in the CL games and Götze carried the team in the league, that's why in most people's opinion he didn't deserve to win the individual award.
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Completely agree. Reus was the best Bundesliga player while Hummels was IMO the best Dortmund player. But if you take into account only the second part of the season, then Kagawa was undoubtetly the best player in Bundesliga.
 
LR7 said:
I think confidence is an issue. I'm pretty sure Kagawa implied that last season too. Plays within himself at times when I'd just love him to take a game by the scruff of the neck and impose himself on it. Chances are the opposition will struggle to deal with him. We haven't seen that consistently enough yet unfortunately, but at the same time, even when not in the best of form he creates more chances than some of our other attacking players.
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Definitely a factor. Can't remember why he was dropped after getting a hat-trick against Norwich. There may well have been a reason but it goes down as a missed opportunity to start a game full of confidence, which might have made a big difference to his performance.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Definitely a factor. Can't remember why he was dropped after getting a hat-trick against Norwich. There may well have been a reason but it goes down as a missed opportunity to start a game full of confidence, which might have made a big difference to his performance.
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Yeah, I think it's because he didn't perform that well in the game at the Bernabèu, so Fergie went for Nani at old Trafford (and Giggs admittedly). Because he's lacking that bit of confidence I think he's not playing with freedom or expressing himself as much as he could. Seems he's more worried about what not to get wrong rather than just focusing on playing his natural game. It's unfortunate because there is potentially a great little player in there. Rio has said he's the best player in training since Scholesy retired, which is no small statement.
 
LR7 said:
Yeah, I think it's because he didn't perform that well in the game at the Bernabèu, so Fergie went for Nani at old Trafford (and Giggs admittedly). Because he's lacking that bit of confidence I think he's not playing with freedom or expressing himself as much as he could. Seems he's more worried about what not to get wrong rather than just focusing on playing his natural game. It's unfortunate because there is potentially a great little player in there. Rio has said he's the best player in training since Scholesy retired, which is no small statement.
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Wow. Serious praise. Didn't read that. If that's from this season can only be a lack of fitness that's kept him (relatively) marginalised. Expect him to feature a lot more on that basis.
 
LR7 said:
I think confidence is an issue. I'm pretty sure Kagawa implied that last season too. Plays within himself at times when I'd just love him to take a game by the scruff of the neck and impose himself on it. Chances are the opposition will struggle to deal with him. We haven't seen that consistently enough yet unfortunately, but at the same time, even when not in the best of form he creates more chances than some of our other attacking players.
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Yeah, he still seems to be overwhelmed. Looked like a player that was bordering on world class at Dortmund and mostly when he plays for Japan.

We can put it down to our style of play too, for example vs West Brom, we were mostly playing down the right to Nani in the first half. However, it's still up to Kagawa to make himself available and impose himself more. No matter how good a player is, he can't expect a game to come to him.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Wow. Serious praise. Didn't read that. If that's from this season can only be a lack of fitness that's kept him (relatively) marginalised. Expect him to feature a lot more on that basis.
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Might have been in Andy Mitten's UWS podcast a few weeks back featuring Rio, but he definitely said it.
 
LR7 said:
Might have been in Andy Mitten's UWS podcast a few weeks back featuring Rio, but he definitely said it.
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Yup, it was in Andy Mittens podcast straight before or straight after the first game in Japan. Rio was the guest.

What's even more interesting is that Andy Mitten himself in one of his more recent blog posts(for the Norwegian United forum) wrote that both Rio and Rooney were opposed to signing Kagawa. Fergie and Phelan wanted to sign Kagawa in order to get a player who offers something different and who can bring a bit of class, composure and ball retention in the attacking third. Rooney and Rio felt that this was not "The United Way", and wanted us to keep doing what we had done for a while. You could therefore say that the signing of Kagawa was an unpopular but necessary step in order to improve. Hopefully Moyes will be able to see the same necessity. Fergie and Phelan clearly rated Kagawa and had big plans for him, but it's all up to Moyes now.

Either way, it's good to see that Rio acknowledges Kagawa's skills, despite originally being opposed to signing him. A cynic might say that he's only compensating for his former attitude and that he overestimates Kagawa's abilities, but I like to think that Rio is mature enough to admit it when he's been wrong.

Additional fun fact:
Rio was also asked by Andy Mitten which United player he would sign if he was the coach of a different team. His answer? Danny Welbeck!
 
It will be a big shame if Kagawa doesn't make it here as he is clearly good enough.

Agree with whoever it was that said it could be a 'Veron situation' of trying to fit a good player into a team where it doesn't quite work.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Agree with whoever it was that said it could be a 'Veron situation' of trying to fit a good player into a team where it doesn't quite work.
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I think it's pretty clear by now that it does in fact work with Kagawa in the team. In the last 360 days or so, we've only lost once when Kagawa has played for more than 2 minutes, and that was in this weekend's game against WBA, where Kagawa was one of the best players on the field before he was taken off. Kagawa's goal/assist ratio from last season is also better than any of our midfielders and wingers. Way better, in fact! Only RVP, Rooney and Hernandez have better stats.

It all comes down to whether or not Moyes is satisfied with what Kagawa offers, or if he has other plans.

I'm gonna lose a lot of respect for Moyes if he can't find a way to play Kagawa regularly. It shouldn't be that hard.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
It will be a big shame if Kagawa doesn't make it here as he is clearly good enough.

Agree with whoever it was that said it could be a 'Veron situation' of trying to fit a good player into a team where it doesn't quite work.
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We signed Veron with no intention of marginalising Keane/Scholes and signed Kagawa with no intention of marginalising Rooney. Also, I would suggest that a large part of Kagawa's brilliance at Dortmund was down to the football they played. We don't play with half the speed and interplay, so I don't think we are necessarily best suited to his assets.
 
Mad Winger said:
I think it's pretty clear by now that it does in fact work with Kagawa in the team. In the last 360 days or so, we've only lost once when Kagawa has played for more than 2 minutes, and that was in this weekend's game against WBA, where Kagawa was one of the best players on the field before he was taken off. Kagawa's goal/assist ratio from last season is also better than any of our midfielders and wingers. Way better, in fact! Only RVP, Rooney and Hernandez have better stats.

It all comes down to whether or not Moyes is satisfied with what Kagawa offers, or if he has other plans.

I'm gonna lose a lot of respect for Moyes if he can't find a way to play Kagawa regularly. It shouldn't be that hard.
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Thats a ridiculous point to use...

Its also up to the player to force himself into the managers players. His own comments back this up. He knows himself he has to do better...
 
The stat about games lost when Kagawa plays > 2 minutes is also beyond absurd. Of course this MW guy is fast becoming a parody of himself so, anything he posts about Kagawa need to be taken with a pinch of salt.
 
Rozay said:
Also, I would suggest that a large part of Kagawa's brilliance at Dortmund was down to the football they played. We don't play with half the speed and interplay, so I don't think we are necessarily best suited to his assets.
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Just quoting my other post:

Fergie and Phelan wanted to sign Kagawa in order to get a player who offers something different and who can bring a bit of class, composure and ball retention in the attacking third. Rooney and Rio felt that this was not "The United Way", and wanted us to keep doing what we had done for a while. You could therefore say that the signing of Kagawa was an unpopular but necessary step in order to improve. Hopefully Moyes will be able to see the same necessity. Fergie and Phelan clearly rated Kagawa and had big plans for him, but it's all up to Moyes now.
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It is evident that Fergie and Phelan wanted us to change our style a bit, perhaps to more of a "Dortmund style". RVP sudden signing altered the Kagawa plans for a bit, but they did work hard in order to include Kagawa in the starting XI. The last few weeks of last season is the evidence of this. Kagawa started many games, and it did in fact look like our "style" changed a bit because of this.

The theme of this Andy Mitten bllog post was actually about how Moyes seems to be breaking apart the nice project that Fergie and Phelan had successfully started. If Kagawa turns out to not be a part of Moyes plans(which it's still way too early to say), then there's no one but Moyes to blame. Not Fergie, Not our style. Not Kagawa himself.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The stat about games lost when Kagawa plays > 2 minutes is also beyond absurd. Of course this MW guy is fast becoming a parody of himself so, anything he posts about Kagawa need to be taken with a pinch of salt.
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The point is that whenever Kagawa has been on the pitch for a serious number of minutes(you can't call 2 minutes that), we haven't lost for about a year in the league. That's roughly 25 games. Obviously stats can be misleading, but if we haven't even lost when Kagawa's played, then it's fair to say that Kagawa at least isn't breaking up our game and ruining for everyone else.

That was my point... Calm the feck down, will you?:D
 
I don't think it's fanboyism when being frustrated when seeing the team clearly lacked the creativity to open up defences, playing predictable football then also seeing a player who offers both in abundance is not being used. Are we not allowed to criticized Moyes when we think that he didn't get things right?

Hell even people can complain when Fergie won the league 11 points clear
 
Rozay said:
We signed Veron with no intention of marginalising Keane/Scholes and signed Kagawa with no intention of marginalising Rooney. Also, I would suggest that a large part of Kagawa's brilliance at Dortmund was down to the football they played. We don't play with half the speed and interplay, so I don't think we are necessarily best suited to his assets.
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Is that really an excuse? Chelsea don't play like Dortmund, yet a player like Mata has no problems shining there. Truly top players can adjust to any system.
 
Shark22 said:
Is that really an excuse? Chelsea don't play like Dortmund, yet a player like Mata has no problems shining there. Truly top players can adjust to any system.
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Chelsea have more players like Mata for him to play the ball around with. But in any case, I am not even saying Kagawa is a truly top class player. But then again, you cannot say that Veron was not.
 
Sticking with the Veron analogy, let's not forget he didn't cut the mustard at Chelsea either. Does this mean that both Chelsea and United lacked the tactical flexibility to accomodate this mercurial genius? or maybe, just maybe he never had what it takes to thrive in English football? I know it's trendy to slag off the standard of football in the Premier League but there are loads of very talented footballers who - for some reason - just couldn't hack it in this league. The pace, the physicality, the refereeing, whatever. It's not always the fault of the club that signed them.
 
I'd like to see Kagawa be more direct. I'm a huge fan of his, but sometimes I feel he tends to 'play it cool' too often rather than be more direct. Then again, it's not as if our forward lines make great off the ball movement for him to be direct.
 
Last season people were all trying to figure out who would be the best addition between Kagawa, Hazard and Cazorla... I wonder what people's opinions are now...
 
Dirty Schwein said:
Last season people were all trying to figure out who would be the best addition between Kagawa, Hazard and Cazorla... I wonder what people's opinions are now...
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Tough one. Kagawa excites me more than the other two. I really like his style, and I'm always so eager for him to play, and to play a full 90 minutes. I think I'd rather keep Kagawa than take Hazard or Cazorla, if we could only have one. I think he's exactly what we need, but for some reason he's not as trusted as other less technically proficient players.
 
Dirty Schwein said:
Last season people were all trying to figure out who would be the best addition between Kagawa, Hazard and Cazorla... I wonder what people's opinions are now...
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It really depends on what you value. Cazorla and Hazard have obviously made a much bigger impact on their respective clubs, but I'm still confident that Kagawa will end up as the better player overall. Cazorla will turn 29 before this year has passed, so I doubt that he'll develop much more as a player. Hazard is an obvious talent, but I feel that his type player is rather "common"(in lack of a better word). It takes a lot more work for these "flair players" to truly put their footprints on football history, unless they reach Ronaldo/Messi level(or something similar).

Kagawa is more of a rare talent, in the sense that he looks more like an Iniesta type of player. He's not gonna become the biggest and most obvious star, probably in any part of his career, but he will reach world class level none the less, though in a more subtle fashion.

Kagawa will therefore become a better player than Hazard, simply because of his uniqueness. The latter will never be more than "flavor of the month", while having the odd brilliant season or two. When I see Hazard, I see a slightly more promising version of Nani. When I see Kagawa, I see a combination of Iniesta and Silva. Less direct playstyle than the former, though more so than the latter.

/Muppets: flame on
 
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