Shinji Kagawa

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Sticking with the Veron analogy, let's not forget he didn't cut the mustard at Chelsea either. Does this mean that both Chelsea and United lacked the tactical flexibility to accomodate this mercurial genius? or maybe, just maybe he never had what it takes to thrive in English football? I know it's trendy to slag off the standard of football in the Premier League but there are loads of very talented footballers who - for some reason - just couldn't hack it in this league. The pace, the physicality, the refereeing, whatever. It's not always the fault of the club that signed them.

'Tis a far point, that. It was perhaps even more so back then - but I think it's still true that a certain type of player just isn't cut out for a certain type of league. You could argue that the difference between the big leagues of Europe is smaller now than it was, due to players being imported from all over the world* and the consequent loss of a "national" style. But there is undoubtedly still a difference - in terms of speed and physicality.

The analogy is worrying, though. Veron was a top class player who simply didn't fit in. He wasn't found out, in my opinion, as much as it turned out that he just wasn't the right fit. In Europe, where Fergie ditched his regular formation for a three of sorts in the middle, Veron was much better. I suspect Kagawa would benefit from us changing our set-up slightly too - but the reason Fergie didn't change his formation permanently was simple and valid: Veron wasn't the only top class player we had at the time, far from it. We had others, who worked better in a different set-up, and in the end we were better off letting Veron go.

* Which was the case back when we signed Veron too, of course, but to a lesser degree. The equivalent to today's Swanseas and Sunderlands weren't loaded with foreign imports to the same extent, etc.
 
Sticking with the Veron analogy, let's not forget he didn't cut the mustard at Chelsea either. Does this mean that both Chelsea and United lacked the tactical flexibility to accomodate this mercurial genius? or maybe, just maybe he never had what it takes to thrive in English football? I know it's trendy to slag off the standard of football in the Premier League but there are loads of very talented footballers who - for some reason - just couldn't hack it in this league. The pace, the physicality, the refereeing, whatever. It's not always the fault of the club that signed them.


The Bundesliga is probably as close as it gets to the Prem in terms of physicality and his former team Dortmund played/s (one of the) fastest football style in Europe. All that didn't stop him from shining. In my opinion his problem is simply United's style. He works more like a multiplicator than a independent playmaker. If the team plays as static as United he struggles, if his team plays fast, direct football he thrives.
 
The Bundesliga is probably as close as it gets to the Prem in terms of physicality and his former team Dortmund played/s (one of the) fastest football style in Europe. All that didn't stop him from shining. In my opinion his problem is simply United's style. He works more like a multiplicator than a independent playmaker. If the team plays as static as United he struggles, if his team plays fast, direct football he thrives.

Amen!

But I also believe that if he's given enough playtime, Kagawa will be able to shape our play to fit him as well. That is why it's so important to give him a lot of playtime. Not only for him to adapt to the team, but also for the team to adapt to him.
 
Someone please tell Moyes these 2 are NOT the same player :

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The Bundesliga is probably as close as it gets to the Prem in terms of physicality and his former team Dortmund played/s (one of the) fastest football style in Europe. All that didn't stop him from shining. In my opinion his problem is simply United's style. He works more like a multiplicator than a independent playmaker. If the team plays as static as United he struggles, if his team plays fast, direct football he thrives.

I think you're pretty much spot on there. He isn't, as you suggest, a playmaker as such - he needs a certain fluidity around him in order to work at his best. The question is whether he can capitalize on his qualities in a different system. He might need to do just that. Right now, as United are likely to set up under Moyes, he would probably be better in what we like to call the Rooney role. And that isn't feasible as long as Rooney plays well. The latter is a goal scorer in a system like ours to an extent that Kagawa simply can't match. He, Rooney, is also a superior long-range passer - a feature that still matters as long as we insist on attacking, partly, through pinging balls out to the wings.

Kagawa needs to be bedded in as a tucked-in winger in a system which is different from the one he's used to playing for Japan. He won't see as much of the ball, for one. And the collective pressing will be very different from anything he knows from either Dortmund or the national team. He needs to slightly adjust his approach, I think. If he can manage that, he could be brilliant for us.
 
To think the term "AM" used to make me grit my teeth. Now we're talking about "multiplicators"?

:lol: I know. It's purely nominal, though. Fancy bollocks. There's still eleven players out there and they're still playing football. Passing the ball around, trying to score a goal. Trying, hopefully, to prevent the other eleven men from scoring one.
 
Seriously, what's a multiplicator? Is this a word we're using now? :(
 
Seriously, what's a multiplicator? Is this a word we're using now? :(

It's what provides the circulation, man. The...key to the circuit. If I understand him rightly, that is. Kagawa is a playmaker who can only function fully as such in a system which, you know, flows around him. Not a classic playmaker who will create something out of nothing, if you will, but one who depends on a circulatory flow around him...to...yeah. It's metaphysical, man.

What it means is that Kagawa must have a set-up. He won't shine unless he does so within a particular set-up. If that is a definite limitation, however, we have trouble. Because we aren't going to alter our entire, basic approach just to accommodate his multiplying arse.
 
The Multiplicator. Has a ring. Between himself and The Equaliser, the oppo should be quaking in their boots by Christmas.
 
Someone please tell Moyes these 2 are NOT the same player :

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I'm sure he knows. After all, they're different people, with different names, ages, looks and nationalities. I mean, you'd have to be properly, terminally stupid not to realise that.
 
It's what provides the circulation, man. The...key to the circuit. If I understand him rightly, that is. Kagawa is a playmaker who can only function fully as such in a system which, you know, flows around him. Not a classic playmaker who will create something out of nothing, if you will, but one who depends on a circulatory flow around him...to...yeah. It's metaphysical, man.

What it means is that Kagawa must have a set-up. He won't shine unless he does so within a particular set-up. If that is a definite limitation, however, we have trouble. Because we aren't going to alter our entire, basic approach just to accommodate his multiplying arse.

So this other dude. The non-multiplicating playmaker? He can unpick the meanest defence even if his team-mates are standing around like gormless statues?

We should sign one of them. They sound amazing.
 
It's what provides the circulation, man. The...key to the circuit. If I understand him rightly, that is. Kagawa is a playmaker who can only function fully as such in a system which, you know, flows around him. Not a classic playmaker who will create something out of nothing, if you will, but one who depends on a circulatory flow around him...to...yeah. It's metaphysical, man.

What it means is that Kagawa must have a set-up. He won't shine unless he does so within a particular set-up. If that is a definite limitation, however, we have trouble. Because we aren't going to alter our entire, basic approach just to accommodate his multiplying arse.

Our approach right now is dull and ineffective so maybe we should. Id personally love us to play a midfield 3 of carrick cleverly and kagawa with those two linking and pressing forward. I don't think Rooney high on the left would be an issue it suits his game and he'd float anyway.

Our midfield and wings are too much of an issue to ignore for the sake of a central Rooney.
 
To think the term "AM" used to make me grit my teeth. Now we're talking about "multiplicators"?

Us oldies always called them inside forwards.
 
Seriously, though. Isn't it a bit of a cop-out to say an attacking player won't be at his best until all of the other attacking players improve their movement? Wouldn't that be true for every attacking footballer ever?
 
Our approach right now is dull and ineffective so maybe we should. Id personally love us to play a midfield 3 of carrick cleverly and kagawa with those two linking and pressing forward. I don't think Rooney high on the left would be an issue it suits his game and he'd float anyway.

Our midfield and wings are too much of an issue to ignore for the sake of a central Rooney.


I wouldn't say it suits him, can't think of many good performances he's put in there. Think you can get more from putting kagawa wide and allowing him to drift than from sticking rooney there. I just think we need to let Kagawa have a run there so he can adapt and the team can adapt, no reason it can't work at all.
 
Seriously, though. Isn't it a bit of a cop-out to say an attacking player won't be at his best until all of the other attacking players improve their movement? Wouldn't that be true for every attacking footballer ever?

Basically he's not very good 1 v 1 and so he won't do things on his own. He's dependant on combinations and other players making runs for him to shine. Which, yes, is true of very many other players.
 
Seriously, though. Isn't it a bit of a cop-out to say an attacking player won't be at his best until all of the other attacking players improve their movement? Wouldn't that be true for every attacking footballer ever?

Fans making excuses for their favourites. Top players should adapt, not the other way around.
 
Seriously, though. Isn't it a bit of a cop-out to say an attacking player won't be at his best until all of the other attacking players improve their movement? Wouldn't that be true for every attacking footballer ever?

There's this weird, self-hating thing going on with Kagawa that I just don't get. A lot of our fans seem to think we're beneath him, that somehow we need to change entirely to accommodate him. It's really odd.
 
Something else that's bothering me is how the feck we won all our recent league titles with attacking players capable of no more than the most rudimentary movement in the opposition half?

Only that's very much the impression I'm getting from this place despite the fact we've got essentially the same personnel. Other than the addition of Robin Van Persie. Who's quite good.
 
Well obviously people take it too far but I think Kagawa gives us an attacking option that's pretty different to what else we have and through him it opens up a few more different options. If there's one thing you can criticism about our attack is that sometimes we lack cutting edge through central areas which he brings. Other teams such as Arsenal, City etc in recent years have suffered through being too central based, we've had a slightly better mix but for us it's been more focused in wide areas. Kagawa gives us an option to increase our central option.

If we can get him settled in than in him, nani and valencia we have 3 players for the other two attacking styles who can give us some good variety in attack.
 
Seeing as I'm unburdening myself here. Is there any reason nobody EVER pointed out during Rooney's many dips in form how terribly hard he must find playmaking at United while handicapped by all these static team-mates?

I'll leave it at that because I'm sounding like I've got a massive personal agenda against Kagawa and I do quite like him as a footballer. Neat tidy and easy on the eye. Just needs to find his mojo, that's all.
 
Well personally I've always thought we can lack runners opening options centrally for whoever is in the number 10 spot, but for me Rooneys problem is also that he doesn't seem to pick up the ball in that position and fully face the opposition goal. That's what was so good about his early games this season against Chelsea and Bayer Lev, he did a full turn and went forward with the ball as opposed to his half turn which usually leads to a wide pass that we more often see.
 
I see it as using Kagawa to alter our approach than the other way round. We're a team that focuses on wide play to the detriment of our central play and it shows, especially without our full backs providing it so far this season.

We have another tool in our locker now that we should be using when our width fails us. Even if we go Rooney and Kagawa behind RVP and rely solely on our full backs for the width.

There's nothing appealing about failed cross after failed cross.
 
Seeing as I'm unburdening myself here. Is there any reason nobody EVER pointed out during Rooney's many dips in form how terribly hard he must find playmaking at United while handicapped by all these static team-mates?

I'll leave it at that because I'm sounding like I've got a massive personal agenda against Kagawa and I do quite like him as a footballer. Neat tidy and easy on the eye. Just needs to find his mojo, that's all.

This is the problem. Too many people worry about Kagawa and take any form of criticism towards him as some sort of agenda. I don't understand the massive defence the lad gets. He's done nothing so far this season to warrant his inclusion and last year he only really performed in games late in the season.

I too really rate him, and hope we get to see the Shinji we saw at Dortmund. However I get the impression he's a square peg for a round hole at the moment. Unless we drastically change our style of play, or he learns to adapt to his wide role and the physicality of the PL he may flatter to deceive.
 
So this other dude. The non-multiplicating playmaker? He can unpick the meanest defence even if his team-mates are standing around like gormless statues?

We should sign one of them. They sound amazing.

They're extinct, man. Wouldn't work in the modern world - too much emphasis on keeping fit, being "professional", all sorts of bollocks. Running around for ninety minutes - it's unnatural. Bleedin' robots is what people want these days.
 
Something else that's bothering me is how the feck we won all our recent league titles with attacking players capable of no more than the most rudimentary movement in the opposition half?

Only that's very much the impression I'm getting from this place despite the fact we've got essentially the same personnel. Other than the addition of Robin Van Persie. Who's quite good.

Compare the numbers for Valencia and Nani from last season to the seasons before it and it's pretty clear to see why fans think this now.

Do we think that this is simply form? In Nani's case, there is no reason he can't get those numbers back up.

Valencia? I dunno.. personally I think Van Persie isn't the sort of striker who benefits a great deal from a winger like Valencia. Plus, even when he was getting those numbers, we were still criticizing how predictable he was and that it was far less effective against teams who parked the bus.

To be picky, since Ronaldo and Tevez left (assume you mean post them, since you say 'essentially the same personnel) and before Van Persie (you say he's an addition since so I assume you mean pre-Van Persie) we only won 1 title and Berbatov was our top scorer with 20 goals! Admittedly, it's a bit pointless, as we lost by one point and by goal difference the other two league opportunities in that period.
 
English isn't his first language, there's probably a much more appropriate term in German to describe him.

I don't see the need to take the piss out of him, the Germans have added a lot to the football forum over the past year or so.
 
There's this weird, self-hating thing going on with Kagawa that I just don't get. A lot of our fans seem to think we're beneath him, that somehow we need to change entirely to accommodate him. It's really odd.

It's not so much about accommodating him as it is playing better football. The sort of football Kagawa thrives in is the sort of thing we want to see from United, rather than the awfully restricted and boring system of getting it to the wing and crossing it.
 
People have a strange perception of what it means to attack down the flanks. It doesn't have to be aimless punts into the box from deep. When our wingers are on form there's so much more to their game than that. Look at Arsenal's goals tonight. Technically they would be described as "getting the ball wide and crossing it". I'm not going to pretend we've been at our fluent best anywhere near as often as I'd like, going back at least one year. Arguably two. I don't see this fundamentally flawed approach people are bemoaning though. Just key attacking players well below the level we know they can reach.
 
Seriously, what's a multiplicator? Is this a word we're using now? :(

What I'm trying to say is that I get the impression that people see him as a classic no10, someone like Özil who creates and shapes attacks on his own, someone who receives the ball in a deep position and then sets up his team mates.
But the truth is that Kagawa has never shown these qualities, he's neither amazing in 1v1s nor is his passing world class, especially long range and his pace isn't amazing either.
His biggest strengths are his intelligence/game reading and his first touch. Something which he can bring in best when playing in a narrow, free flowing offense. There his ability to indentify critical spaces has the biggest impact and because his quick and impressive decision making paired with his quick and clean handling of the ball allows him to speed up combinations and make them more direct.
His intelligence also was of great use for Dortmund's counter pressing which allowed them to play their offensive approach in the first place.
In other words he's the kind of guy that links up your attack when combinating and can be an important factor in making your team better than the sum of its parts.
 
What I'm trying to say is that I get the impression that people see him as a classic no10, someone like Özil who creates and shapes attacks on his own, someone who receives the ball in a deep position and then sets up his team mates.
But the truth is that Kagawa has never shown these qualities, he's neither amazing in 1v1s nor is his passing world class, especially long range and his pace isn't amazing either.
His biggest strengths are his intelligence/game reading and his first touch. Something which he can bring in best when playing in a narrow, free flowing offense. There his ability to indentify critical spaces has the biggest impact and because his quick and impressive decision making paired with his quick and clean handling of the ball allows him to speed up combinations and make them more direct.
His intelligence also was of great use for Dortmund's counter pressing which allowed them to play their offensive approach in the first place.
In other words he's the kind of guy that links up your attack when combinating and can be an important factor in making your team better than the sum of its parts.

Another good post. I can see why you got promoted.

I agree that Kagawa's overall passing isn't World Class per se(at least not if Xavi and Iniesta are the standard there), but I do think his passing is incredibly underrated. Not only does he have an average passing accuracy of around 90%, despite being played higher up the field than CMs, but I also think he's got a pretty good passing repertoire as well. When it comes to one-touch passes and generally controlling the speed of the pass(in order to time the teammates run), I certainly think he's World Class, or at least bordering to it. And while I agree that Kagawa's long balls never really impressed anyone in Germany, it's a totally different story for Japan, where he play on the left side. Some of his 20-30 yard passes/lobs over the opponent's defense have been absolutely breath-taking, and whenever I see Japan's strikers miss their chances, I'm always thinking; "had that been Van Persie, then it would have been one of the goals of the season".
 
Rooney must make way for another position if we are ever going to get the best out of Kagawa. Shinji's best position is as a trequartista, not as a wide player. We lose a large chunk of Kagawa's creativity playing him out wide. To make matters even worse, Moyes started Jones & Buttner(2 of the worst crossers in the history of association football). The defeat was inevitable. Doncaster United would have beaten us on Saturday with the horrible tactical approach & the awful team selection.
 
Rooney must make way for another position if we are ever going to get the best out of Kagawa. Shinji's best position is as a trequartista, not as a wide player. We lose a large chunk of Kagawa's creativity playing him out wide. To make matters even worse, Moyes started Jones & Buttner(2 of the worst crossers in the history of association football). The defeat was inevitable. Doncaster United would have beaten us on Saturday with the horrible tactical approach & the awful team selection.

Explain the horrible tactical approach and how it varied so differently to what we've seen over the last couple of years.
 
Rooney must make way for another position if we are ever going to get the best out of Kagawa. Shinji's best position is as a trequartista, not as a wide player. We lose a large chunk of Kagawa's creativity playing him out wide.

Oh that's good lets lose a large chunk of Rooney's creativity instead. Rooney is only our best player at the moment but no lets play him out of position for Kagawa.
 
I agree that Kagawa's overall passing isn't World Class per se(at least not if Xavi and Iniesta are the standard there), but I do think his passing is incredibly underrated. Not only does he have an average passing accuracy of around 90%, despite being played higher up the field than CMs, but I also think he's got a pretty good passing repertoire as well. When it comes to one-touch passes and generally controlling the speed of the pass(in order to time the teammates run), I certainly think he's World Class, or at least bordering to it.

World Class, is something I would not associate with Kagawa. He is a highly intelligent player and that's it. World Class should have a better definition that someone who can influence a whole game and not just anyone who just excels in a particluar facet of the game. I don't think Kagawa will be remembered in the same category of a Ronaldo or a Messi ever in future.

Tbf, my thought was that United fans got excited after it got known we were interested in him. A year / couple of months before, he was not there in any United fans shortlist to buy, and I still think it is a wrong decision...in a Berbatov kind of way. Talented, very good...but no way he fits in with our gameplay. What we desperately needed was a CM, but got a AM who then get shunted out wide. Defintiely not good for either Kagawa or for the team. Like Jose is doing to mata, Kagawa needs to 'adapt' and flourish from wide areas.
 
There's this weird, self-hating thing going on with Kagawa that I just don't get. A lot of our fans seem to think we're beneath him, that somehow we need to change entirely to accommodate him. It's really odd.

Seeing as I'm unburdening myself here. Is there any reason nobody EVER pointed out during Rooney's many dips in form how terribly hard he must find playmaking at United while handicapped by all these static team-mates?

I'll leave it at that because I'm sounding like I've got a massive personal agenda against Kagawa and I do quite like him as a footballer. Neat tidy and easy on the eye. Just needs to find his mojo, that's all.

I definitely agree with these two observations.
 
I'll leave it at that because I'm sounding like I've got a massive personal agenda against Kagawa and I do quite like him as a footballer. Neat tidy and easy on the eye. Just needs to find his mojo, that's all.


He's looking more and more like a square peg in a round hole. Much like Berbatov was. It's disappointing. I wanted Kagawa on United for a couple of years before he got here and now it seems he's being wasted. Once we signed RVP he because superfluous. Now he's just waiting to see if Rooney leaves, which is unfair on such a talented player.
 
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