That would be a stretch.
Shinji Kagawa
- Thread starter Baby Faced Assassin
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
- Status
That would be a stretch.
There was no plan till RVP. Rooney and Hernandez/Welbeck were both good partnerships. Kagawa gave a different option
I'm very confident that he'll be given a game in behind the forward soon. Moyes has acknowledged that it is his best position, so he'll no doubt give him a chance there. Maybe tomorrow? It's just important that Kagawa plays well when given this chance, or at least looks a lot more influential than he has done out wide.
Pace, coming through the youth team as a wide player, etc
Creativity isnt the only thing that suffers when you are moved wide. Goals too. See Wayne Rooney's goalscoring from matches started on the left or right
To be fair, Kagawa isn't a stranger to playing out wide.
He can play from the left and his performances haven't been as bad as people have made out when in that position, but his style of play doesn't seem to suit Moyes partly due to his preference of having protection for the full-back, something which Kagawa doesn't really offer. Maximising Kagawa's potential from the left would require Moyes' changing his style and reducing the need to float balls into the box at every opportunity. Not to mention Nani and Januzaj are two very talented wingers in their own regard, Kagawa not starting over them isn't a slight on him considering how good they are.
Also, the preference of Kagawa in front of the midfield isn't necessarily a reaction to Rooney's faults but more the struggles we have of playing two strikers at the same time. I'd be just as happy with Kagawa behind Rooney as I would with Kagawa behind van Persie. I think people feel that our midfield has been isolated recently which further highlights our midfield problems. People see the type of qualities in Kagawa that would seemingly remedy the problems we have - such as too much reliance on the wingers, little creativity through the middle, the team being poor under pressure and little movement in the final third. The reasons people want him to play are due to his qualities that he'd bring to the middle - we have two fantastic wingers, he's not needed out wide.
If anybody on this team needs competition it's Rooney. Make him stay in shape and concentrate. Last week he was fecking ridiculous.
I think Rooneys early form bought him a run in the team, though he is now back at his level of the last year or so. However, he won't just be dropped. Kagawa will get a chance and he needs to take it.
Another problem is that Fergie said himself that Rooney needs to be playing every game to have any sort of form/fitness. It's a bit of a headache really.
That looks a very strong lineup!
First off, calling Januzaj a more creative player than Kagawa is a questionable claim given that the former has not proven enough to back up that opionion. Secondly, I was under the impression, that Januzaj is a natural wide player and was brought up as such? He at least feels like a player who has played such a role for a lengthy period of time. That makes his case different to Kagawa, who is asked to change his play style to fit United´s system.
The question, why Kagawa can´t to adapt to a wide role while other central offensive midfielder managed to do that was already answered several times in this thread (at some point this discussion is bound to go in circles), so I´ll keep it short:
Kagawa´s position in the left midfield in itself is not the problem, it is the position in combination with Moyes´ system that makes Kagawa´s adaption so difficult. Moyes has shown to use either Rooney or Wellbeck in the position behind the striker, two players who don´t fit the role of an offensive midfielders, so naturally they move up the pitch. This transforms a 4-2-3-1 on paper into a 4-4-2 formation, which is even more build on width, a system that has become a rarity in modern football.
This also makes the point of allowing him freedom to drift inside moot, because the system does not only impact his own position but the movement of the whole offensive formation. Something that is frequently seen in United´s current play is a big gap in the central area of the final third of the pitch. Your supposed CAM stands on the same line as your striker, all your CM are not really the creative type (even Carrick has its strengths more in the defensive) to greatly move up the pitch and fill that hole, your wingers are supposed to create width.
So what happens if Kagawa drifts into that area? He has basically no movement around him. For a first and foremost link-up player, who excells at quick passing with little time on the ball and when he has multiple passing options around him, this greatly hinders his play. The main reason why he shined so much at Dortmund was the huge amount of off the ball movement they provided. He basically came from a system with three or even four constant passing options into a static one with often not a single one. This is the reason why he holds onto the ball way longer at United than he did in Dortmund or does for Japan.
If he would himself play as CAM, he could at least make the game more fluid, because he would provide the necessary movement and link up the rest of the offensive. This is something Rooney can´t do to such an extend.
"Shinji Kagawa is one of the best players in the world and he now plays 20 minutes at Manchester United – on the left wing! My heart breaks. Really, I have tears in my eyes. Central midfield is Shinji's best role. He's an offensive midfielder with one
of the best noses for goal I ever saw. But for most Japanese people it means more to play for Man United than Dortmund. We cried for 20 minutes, in each others' arms, when he left." Klopp.
It breaks my heart too. In all honesty, he's wasted here at United
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
I can't help but admire Klopp more for those words and if ever Moyes left us then he has to be the man! As for Kagawa, he'll go and we should be pissed off and we'll regret not getting the best out of him especially after Rooney shits on us in the summer.All in all it stinks and as fans we can't do anything about it.Yeah sure there are plenty that don't rate him but many do and i do.I would love for him to be given the chances to play more central and take off here but sadly i think he will take off before long but not in the way i'd like! *major Shinji love in here*
Klopp's a legend, you can tell how highly he rates Kagawa as a player, he did basically build his whole title winning team around him. It's a shame our manager doesn't rate him.
This would be ideal. Think Kagawa would have loads more success linking up with Nani, Januzaj and RvP than Valencia, Young and Rooney. I do agree with those who say he hasn't done much in his time here but we haven't given him much opportunity to shine.
I don't think the team was built around him, Kagawa was just the perfect fit and at one point in 11/12 it clicked and all came together, basically at the time Gündogan found his place in the team and Kagawa was back to his best after his long injury break the team started to play brilliant football again.
Dortmund did fine in the second half of 10/11 without Kagawa when he was out injured. Klopp's teams were always a collective, it was always about the team and at no point the team relied on a single player. Götze at the beginning of 11/12 was maybe the only exception, but then Sahin was gone, Gündogan still adapting to the new team, Kagawa and Barrios not fully fit yet and Lewandowski still at the beginning of his development.
It really is a shame. Not sure, however, what is more of a shame, that or Moyes perpetually taking Rooney's cock up the arse.
The truth is that united pushed themselves in the corner. If rooney doesnt play regularly in the position he likes then he fecks on cheap. Meanwhile players who deserves a chance like chicarito and kagawa are relegated to the bench. No one is bigger then the club.....right
Götze did carry us for some time, but it was never intended that way by Klopp. It was more that we struggled as a team and Götze took charge, which was extremely impressive for a 19 year old (as much as I have come to dislike him as a Dortmund supporter due to the way he left, the football fan in me can´t help to rate him extremely high as a player).
The last really central figure of our system was Sahin 2010/2011, which is why his departure was by far the hardest one to replace. Klopp learned from that and began to split up the burdens on multiple shoulders, which helped us greatly, when key figures such as Götze 2012 or Gündogan right now suffered serious injuries. We have become less and less dependent on single players, which also of course has to do with the grown depth as squad.
Yep, we've fecked ourselves. Watch us lose all 3 of them, RVP on the way down in his career and left with Welbeck as our lead striker
He'll be on bench again tonight.
Would really love to see him in No.10 position but we all know that aint gonna happen.
Would really love to see him in No.10 position but we all know that aint gonna happen.
I'll say it again, Kagawa is a player which our team should be built around. Not someone who is marginalised due to our manager daring not upset other players and their egos.
We have a player who can unlock defences and yet we don't fecking play him, its ridiculous really.
We have a player who can unlock defences and yet we don't fecking play him, its ridiculous really.
You can have Kagawa back if you give us Klopp.
Oh, and we should not take Klopp´s quote on that matter as absolute truth, because I´m certain he exaggerated a little bit there and said that not solely out of sentimentally. There is an agenda behind this and I expect more of those quotes to come the longer Kagawa struggles at United. They have a clear eye on his progress there just as they intently watch De Bruyne´s fate at Chelsea.
If Klopp would sign a contract until 2025 today at Dortmund, I would give you half of our current first XI. And I´m dead serious about it.
Januzaj is naturally a number 10, and most people on here aren't forming their opinions on him from the last few games in the first team, but from what they've seen from him over the last two years in the U18s and U21s. He should definitely be described as a creative player because he is a real creator of goals/goalscoring chances. He should have had at least two assists against Southampton alone. He has played behind the striker, and also out on the left and the right and can have a big impact on the game from any of those positions. He is able to dribble and run past people with a bit of trickery or skill but that isn't all his game is based on, he also has excellent vision and is able to slip balls through the channels, play little chips over the top of the defence and I genuinely feel he will be playing in behind a striker here before long. I won't get into the debate of who is more creative out of him and Kagawa because I don't think I've yet seen the best of Shinji in a United shirt.
I don't think Moyes has played Welbeck behind the striker this season has he? Against City he played RvP behind Welbeck. It's really been Rooney's position. Against Shakhtar Welbeck was on the left of a 4-1-4-1 iirc.
I agree with the rest of your post though. I'd personally like to see Kagawa at the tip of a midfield three with a licence to push up behind the striker and drift all over really. The way we play 4-4-2 the wingers are really far out wide at times with lots of spaces between the CMs and the wingers and the two high strikers and I
think Kagawa would thrive if we were more compact (not necessarily overly narrow either).
I agree with some of the other posters like Pocco though that Kagawa really needs to impact games now when he gets a chance and I hope he does. He thrives on good movement around him and I think he will benefit playing with Cleverley, Nani, Januzaj and one of the strikers - even Welbeck and Chicharito. He connected really well with Rooney and Cleverley in particular last season when they played together.
While i agree with the sentiment in general about not utilising Kagawa enough, getting Rooney back to form has been one of the very few things Moyes can actually be given credit for. So, you can see why he is continually playing him.
That said, Kagawa should have been given an opportunity. Playing him on the left is just ridiculous and unfair on the player. He cant showcase his ability in the wrong position. Yes, he can do a job, but he cant excel there. Kagawa could really transform things for us in the final 3rd if we play around him. Everyone deserves a chance so dont see why Moyes cant give him a run.
Said it before, but this whole Rooney No.10 thing is a bit of a conundrum. He isnt a No.10 - his first thought is to get into the box. A traditional No.10 would be looking to create openings and play people in. I genuinely believe we would see a far better cohesive performance from the team if we done that.
If's and buts i suppose.
Why is it unfair on him?
People get so up and arms about us using him out of position but I don't see why. Januzaj is as much a #10 as Kagawa yet he seems to have no problems of making the most of it out there. Welbeck is regularly used there. A trait of a Man Utd footballer should be that you can play in various positions, we have a big squad and we need players who can adapt in order to get games. If Kagawa can't make the most of playing on the left, a role in which he drifts in centrally from most of the time anyway when he plays there, it's his own fault. He also plays on the left for Japan!
Plenty of the best #10's play out wide and excel there, Silva, Mata, Cazorla, Gotze, Neymar (more of a #9 but still playing great there) etc, if Kagawa is as good as everyone seems to think he is, I fully expect him to deliver if we do use him on the left.
And to think he's a player who actually wanted to play for United above and beyond anyone else. We're nursing the ego of a player who doesn't really give a hoot about United anymore.
I'm not an anti-Rooney and I'm actually glad he stayed because he's a great player, but he's become almost invincible to Moyes as a result of his tantrum. If he stays, he should still have to fight for a place, but his quote in the summer of "I don't think I have to prove myself anymore" or words to that effect, make it seem like he believes he will walk into the team, regardless of form, effort or desire.
Then again, even when Rooney has been injured, which you would predict is the perfect time to give Kagawa the central role, Kagawa hasn't played. So perhaps it's not even a Rooney issue. Perhaps Moyes just doesn't like him.
I'd be surprised if he doesn't play tonight. And a bit perplexed. It'd be shit to lose him, after he rejected advances from other clubs because his heart was set on us. It just can't be because he's not good enough.
You make a very fair point and i dare say a lot will agree with you.
Its all about confidence. Maybe the problem is more about a run of games than position.
He's amazing. I wanted him as Fergie's successor ahead of Guardiola or Mourinho. And the football he gets your team to play is simply
Absolutely spot on. People love making excuses for Kagawa. When he plays on the left he drifts centrally most of the time. Pretty much in the same manner he does for Japan. He simply isn't playing well. Maybe it's just a lack of confidence? But the aspects of his game that has been disappointed when he has played has been nothing to do with his position.
Personally I don't think he should be starting at the moment. I don't see what he's shown so far for that. As you said look at the way Januzaj a natural number #10 imposed himself on the game playing on the wings. Most number #10s can play out-wide too as shown through Silva etc. If Kagawa can't adapt and have a play well in that position I don't expect to see him here next year. If we were to sell him I'd love us to try get Reus in return.
Aye, there's definitely something to this. The way I see it - and this is theory only, mind - if he would indeed improve us markedly as a No10 there is no reason why he should be completely lost as a (tucked-in) left winger. He is used to operating wide(ish). I think his problem is the way we play at most times. There just isn't enough movement for him to do his thing. But - and here's the thing - that would surely hamper him as a No10 too. He isn't a player who pulls magic out his arse, he seems very dependent on what the players around him are up to at any given time.
The reality is that at present we probably play in a way which quite simply doesn't suit him - not in any role. That said, I'm sure he would be better in the hole and as long as Rooney and RVP aren't creating any real sparks, I'd have no qualms about breaking up that "partnership" and give Kagawa a go behind either of these two - or behind a certain Mexican lad, for that matter.
Look at it from Moyes' point of view: Kagawa was unfit when he arrived and since then what has he shown in his (admittedly reasonably rare) chances to impress? Januzaj, for example, when given a chance did his stuff. That's what Kagawa has to do. If not then I can only see him moving on either in January or at the end of the season. Which would be a shame, obviously enough. He's certainly good enough to play for us when he's on it.
Well I don't know if I'd use the word "genius" but yeah, it was a pretty spectacular post.
Queue Mad_Winger to tell you that's bullshit in 3 ... 2 ...
I think Kagawa could thrive out wide, but perhaps not in a 4-4-2 system? He's not an out and out winger and should not try to play like one. Push him left in a 4-3-3 and he will do much better as those three behind the striker will change positions throughout the game.
It's among your best work. From that post it looks as if you have even watched the occasional game.
- Status