I have a feeling he feels the same about United. We're not playing him in his role, nor do we play to his strengths or a style that will get the best out of him, so what was the point of getting him anyway?
Shinji Kagawa
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I have a feeling he feels the same about United. We're not playing him in his role, nor do we play to his strengths or a style that will get the best out of him, so what was the point of getting him anyway?
With Kagawa I don't think there's any middle-ground. He'll either become one our best and most influential players, or he'll leave us and become a massive success somewhere else(back in Dortmund, for instance). The whole situation speaks volumes about the impact of playstyle and management. Kagawa is not a sure starter for us, and he barely gets any minutes in his best position. Yet if he went back to Dortmund, a team currently superior to us, he'd jump straight into the starting lineup in his preferred position. He'd be a hero in a league that's currently easily on par with the Premier League. He'd actually have a good chance at winning the Champions League. He'd be playing for a team where the fans and manager loves him. On opposing clubs' forums, people in the transfer thread would scream for Kagawa's signing. This webiste and others would be filled with the latest Kagawa gifs.
All of this is in an alternate universe, though. We have to deal with the reality: Kagawa is a United player. So what should we do with a player of his caliber? Should we try to integrate him fully into the team, or should we waste both his and our time? Keeping him as a backup is a bad deal for both parties, so that's just postponing the inevitable transfer.
I can't be the only one thinking that something is wrong when we can't make a player like Kagawa a part of our starting XI, when we've been screaming for a player like him for years. The only reason people are so willing to not put their trust into him, is because they didn't really see him play for Dortmund. For these people, the signing didn't feel like a big one. But it was. Don't let the price tag fool you.
I sometimes wonder what it would look like in here if we signed a more famous player, like Özil or Mata, but failed to integrate him into our starting XI. My guess is that people would behave a lot more like I've behaved in this thread. When you know that a player is brilliant/world class, you obviously want the manager of your team to make it work out. Failing to do so, is frustrating. Because it leaves you with the feeling: "if not this player, then WHO?!"
That's essentially what I feel about Kagawa playing for us. If not him, then who? And when? When Rooney retires/leaves us and the AM spot is "open"?
All of this is in an alternate universe, though. We have to deal with the reality: Kagawa is a United player. So what should we do with a player of his caliber? Should we try to integrate him fully into the team, or should we waste both his and our time? Keeping him as a backup is a bad deal for both parties, so that's just postponing the inevitable transfer.
I can't be the only one thinking that something is wrong when we can't make a player like Kagawa a part of our starting XI, when we've been screaming for a player like him for years. The only reason people are so willing to not put their trust into him, is because they didn't really see him play for Dortmund. For these people, the signing didn't feel like a big one. But it was. Don't let the price tag fool you.
I sometimes wonder what it would look like in here if we signed a more famous player, like Özil or Mata, but failed to integrate him into our starting XI. My guess is that people would behave a lot more like I've behaved in this thread. When you know that a player is brilliant/world class, you obviously want the manager of your team to make it work out. Failing to do so, is frustrating. Because it leaves you with the feeling: "if not this player, then WHO?!"
That's essentially what I feel about Kagawa playing for us. If not him, then who? And when? When Rooney retires/leaves us and the AM spot is "open"?
The Caf.
I dare you to find a poster who's seen more than 10 full Kagawa games for Dortmund who still thinks that he shouldn't play regularly for us. And if you somehow manage to find this poster, then I'm convinced that his reason for thinking so will go somewhere along these lines: "he just doesn't fit your team". Which again leads back to the whole purpose of my post: why aren't we able to make a brilliant player like Kagawa fit into our team?
Rooney is our number 10.
Let's play a game - see how long you can go without posting something about Kagawa.
You're like that cnut on the Buffy forum.
Last time I checked he's also a very capable striker. Some might say an even better striker than AM.
And Van Persie is our number 9.
I agree, and I think if Moyes is to make Kagawa an important player for us, I believe he is going to have to choose between RvP and Rooney as his first choice centre forward, or rotate them, with Kagawa playing behind the elected striker. But as it stands, Moyes is intent on forcing the RvP and Rooney partnership to work. It should work, and worked in spells last season, but isn't working right now.
Kagawa will line up on the left, and wander all over the place, leaving our left side a little imbalanced. He is the kind of player we are crying out for, but with the reputation of RvP and Rooney, it is unlikely one of them will be dropped to accommodate Kagawa. Which is a shame, but I can understand the headache Moyes has over these players. RvP or Rooney? Who do you leave out? It's a tough one. I think RvP is genuinely the best #9 in the world, but Rooney is in much better form right now.
So in other words; as long as we have Rooney and RVP, we can never play a proper AM, no matter who we sign? We'll stick with 4-4-2 no matter what?
Hmm... How many years do you reckon it will take before at least one of them retires? It will be good to know which year we're taking about, so that I can prepare my expectations. Because we're not gonna become one of the best until we play a proper AM or sign all of Bayern's midfielders and wingers.
We can play an attacking midfielder if they prove themselves to be better as a number 10 than Rooney or if they're doing better there than Van Persie is at number 9 so Rooney has to be moved forward. However, as of yet, Kagawa has not done that and at the moment Van Persie and Rooney are much more reliable in terms of performances (and are still likely to make a contribution when they're not at their best like Van Persie at the moment).
I have an issue with this idea that we have to change to suit him, the likes of Mata haven't always had teams that fitted their natural style or even played exactly where they'd want to but they've still managed to perform to a higher standard than Kagawa has. Hopefully he comes on because he does have the talent and he looked a really good player at Dortmund (although I don't actually think he'd get in their team now) but he's got to do more than he has so far when given opportunities.
If we can come up with a formation that gets the best out of Rooney, Van Persie and Kagawa then that would be ideal. But if we can't, and one has to sit out, then it's always likely to be Kagawa.
I agree completely with this. Being a manager isn't easy, and I genuinely feel sorry for Moyes right now. No one expected him to take the league by storm, but right now he's delivering below already fairly low expectations. To top it off, he has to make it work between Rooney and RVP. It seems like a luxury problem, but it really isn't. If you're gonna play with 2 strikers these days, then you need a really strong midfield ala Bayern in order to make it work.
If Rooney went to Dortmund/Barca/Chelsea/Arsenal/Real/Bayern(?), then there's no way in hell he'd get to play AM. He'd be tossed up front immediately, no matter what. And if the player up front was better than him, then he'd likely be sent to the bench.
Rooney is a bad no.10, but a world class striker.
When he plays behind RVP(or Hernandez for that matter), he's not really playing the role of an AM. He's playing the role of a hardworking, versatile striker. And thus, the goals/assists are rolling in. We can therefore say that he has done his job. But while Rooney's stats and individual game looks nice and shiny, our attacking play and team fluidity suffers severly. The reason for this, is because our midfield isn't good enough to cope with 2 strikers. The CM gets too little support, and the passing game in the attacking third becomes non-exsistent and overly dependent on wingers.
We're first and foremost struggling to create proper chances. That is because our attacking play is dire. As absurd as it sounds, Rooney(our best player this season) has to take the blame for this. Or rather, the man choosing to always play him in that role no matter what, needs to take the blame. That would be Moyes.
Kagawa is massively overrated on this forum. People act like he is one of the best players in the world and if we only used him correctly United would become world beaters. He was complete dogshit against Stoke and he doesn't deserve to be starting.
You could say the same thing about Kagawa. I doubt he would start for any of the teams you mentioned, so why should United drop Rooney so an inferior player can play his preferred position?
One or two flashes aside Kagawa has done feck all to justify a starting spot.
I can't help but feel there's something lacking in him. He's a good player, we all know that, we saw it at Dortmund. But this isn't Dortmund, he's been given an opportunity to play for one of the biggest clubs in the world, now he needs to get his head down and make himself invaluable, make it impossible for Moyes not to pick him, not rest on the fact that he was a good player at his last club and expect that that should get him a starting spot.
Shades of Berbatov about him for me, great player but lacking something.
I hope he proves me wrong. But it's up to him. If he's gone in January or the summer, it's him that's losing out, not Utd.
I can't help but feel there's something lacking in him. He's a good player, we all know that, we saw it at Dortmund. But this isn't Dortmund, he's been given an opportunity to play for one of the biggest clubs in the world, now he needs to get his head down and make himself invaluable, make it impossible for Moyes not to pick him, not rest on the fact that he was a good player at his last club and expect that that should get him a starting spot.
Shades of Berbatov about him for me, great player but lacking something.
I hope he proves me wrong. But it's up to him. If he's gone in January or the summer, it's him that's losing out, not Utd.
I don't think he'll miss out on much. He'll probably end up at Dortmund playing for a manager who can get the best out of him, in a system he thrives in.
Maybe in a couple of seasons if Rooney leaves or RvP starts to decline, we'll look back at his departure as a mistake.
He just needs a run of games, especially if he's not going to be played centrally. A consistent run of games in the side will allow him to regain his confidence.
Maybe in a couple of seasons if Rooney leaves or RvP starts to decline, we'll look back at his departure as a mistake.
He just needs a run of games, especially if he's not going to be played centrally. A consistent run of games in the side will allow him to regain his confidence.
I Like Kagawa but some of you people need to calm down. I think everyone loves watching an Ozil, Mata type player at the minute and are clinching at anything when we see Kag's play. As far as I'm concerned his a good two levels below and he can go Dortmund and be a hero again but its not the same level as being a top player here. The Real Mardid game last season summed him up for me... He looks good but when you really analyse him just not dangerous enough for what he's employed to do. Not playing in his best position is a bunch of crap too because Silva doesn't play in his best position for City however he still performs.
Of course he wouldn't, anything else is just red tinted bollocks.
Em.. What? Its true. If Klopp came here Kagawa would not play behind a striker.
Yeah the 'best position' argument is bollocks, all that's saying really is that he's a limited player.
We have plenty of players who play out of position and still affect a game.
Rooney, who presumably would be the player people would be happy to sacrifice, dropped into a position today that we all know he doesn't want to play in yet still had an impact, there are plenty of other examples down the years.
It's up to Kagawa to prove he's a Utd player, not for Utd to shift our best player this season out of position to accommodate him.
We have plenty of players who play out of position and still affect a game.
Rooney, who presumably would be the player people would be happy to sacrifice, dropped into a position today that we all know he doesn't want to play in yet still had an impact, there are plenty of other examples down the years.
It's up to Kagawa to prove he's a Utd player, not for Utd to shift our best player this season out of position to accommodate him.
This comparison keeps coming up and seems to be thrown about without anyone actually thinking through it. Expectations of a wide player in United is widely different to that of City or any other team for that matter. I doubt Silva will thrive as much being a winger in current United system. Our wingers are expected to beat a man and get behind him to put in a cross or drive towards the box. The moment they start cutting inside they end up congesting the midfield and also expose us badly to counter attacks.
Do you think he's being asked or expected to play the role of a traditional winger when he plays left for Utd?
Quite simply yes. The system we play simply demands far more defensive responsibility. It's not just with Kagawa, even when Rooney plays there he usually ends up playing more like a left back than a drifting inside play maker.
How much time did he spend wide left today?
Let's leave the defensive aspect to one side, I think its fair to accept that he won't offer as much defensively as a genuine winger.
Let's leave the defensive aspect to one side, I think its fair to accept that he won't offer as much defensively as a genuine winger.
Its easy not to defend when your in control of the ball. If he helps us dominate the game believe me the defend part is easy. Plus he was drifting in a lot today.. And because it was to no effect it made me wish he just stayed on the line.
Majority of it.
Nail on the head, people talk as if he's being asked to hug the touchline and that's why he's not having an impact.
He played the majority of today's game wide left?
Not sure what game you were watching mate.
It's pretty double standard that people excuse Rooney's performance sub par performances on the wing and acknowledge it as being played out of position but can't get their head around it happening to another player.
Rooney is far more effective on the left than Kagawa has been, he was also helped change the game when he dropped into MF today.
He might not love those positions but he's still effective from them.
Of course you could add to that that Rooney has already proven his worth to Utd many times over. Kagawa has it all to do at Utd. If he thinks he should be given a starting spot based on being good at Dortmund he'd be better off heading back there.
Well that's the area we are doing it wrong, aren't we ? Signing players not for what or where they were doing well for their previous clubs but trying to fit them in wherever we can accommodate.
You can't blame Kagawa for not becoming what you want him to become in the same way you can't blame Anderson or Jones or Powell becoming central midfielders.
Play two strikers up front and two man midfield and Rooney wide. It's a whole different proposition to playing wide in a front 3. It will be a criminal under utilisation of Rooney's talents.
I'm not blaming Kagawa, I'm just saying some players don't have what it takes to make it at Utd, based on performance to date for us I think he runs a risk of falling into that catagory.
That's not me saying he's not a fine player, but we've had plenty of those who for one reason or another couldn't cut it here.
The out of position argument will only get him so much grace.
That's not me saying he's not a fine player, but we've had plenty of those who for one reason or another couldn't cut it here.
The out of position argument will only get him so much grace.
stupid thing is that you could easily have Rooney and RVP playing either side with Kagawa as a false nine and have Carrick, Fellaini and Cleverly anchoring in behind the three of them with Fellaini and Cleverly bombing forward when necessary. Both Rooney and RVP are capable of adding width when necessary as both can cross a ball. Seems stupid that we could easily do this yet haven't adopted it.
Yes and the point that I'm driving is if we had signed Rooney and played him out wide in a 442 then the eventual failure would not have been on his part but our part.
We should either give him a fair shot at where he plays the best or just accept the mistake of signing him and sell him and move on. Making wild comparisons with Silva and the likes and expecting him to succeed in a position that he clearly is not best at is only going to set him as a player and us as a club back.
We should either give him a fair shot at where he plays the best or just accept the mistake of signing him and sell him and move on. Making wild comparisons with Silva and the likes and expecting him to succeed in a position that he clearly is not best at is only going to set him as a player and us as a club back.
What the hell have you been smoking? You're now saying that both RVP and Rooney should be providing us width just so Kagawa can play through the middle?
Seriously, what the hell is going on here? It's almost as if people are seeing something that I'm not with Kagawa at the moment. I'm starting to question my sanity.
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