Compare him with Adnan when it comes speed of execution, he sees an opening and he tries to pass the ball or run with the ball. Kagawa has to believe in himself and play with cojones.
Shinji Kagawa
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Compare him with Adnan when it comes speed of execution, he sees an opening and he tries to pass the ball or run with the ball. Kagawa has to believe in himself and play with cojones.
If we sign 3 world class midfielders then we still have to bench one between Rooney and RVP. Unless 1-2 of those midfielders are beasts like Roy Keane in his prime was who was capable of supporting an all attacking 4-4-2 system with a forward who cant tackle playing partnering him in CM
I'm not saying that Kagawa can't play well outside the AM position. It's just that he's so much better as an AM.
Rooney is not an AM. People need to understand this. His passing, first-touch, and creativity is too poor for that role. He's a world class striker. We're playing 4-4-2, and Rooney is one of the two strikers. In theory there is of course nothing wrong with this. But look at our midfield! It can't cope with 2 strikers!! That's why it's better to play Kagawa as an AM. It offers much better support to our midfield.
Just because Rooney and RVP are scoring goals, it doesn't mean that the rest of the team is doing its job well. We're basically just sacrificing our general play in order to accommodate 2 strikers. This works fine if your ambitions are low... But I want to see us become the best in the world again.
This really is the key point. There are things Kagawa should be doing that he isn't doing regardless of any other factors. A player of his quality is capable of far more than what he is producing irrespective of his position or our system.
Doesn't seem to have any bollocks, is the stage too much for him?
Yes. He first needs to show enough to warrant to even being put on the pitch. This is not about him reaching the heights he was at Dortmund or setting the league on fire, this is about becoming even a small contribution for the team. I have wrote wall of texts about the differences in systems, which cause a lot of Kagawa´s problems, but this does not excuse everything. He needs to do better as a whole and not just as offensive midfielder. That includes some of the most basic stuff like work rate (can´t believe I would ever critizise him for that), thinking, positioning, passing or the first touch. Seriously he had scenes today, where I had to double check his kit number because I could not believe Kagawa having such a bad first touch.
If he managed that he can start and show things, which would make him a great number 10 in Moyes´ eyes. You can show glimpses of that without actually playing in that position.
If his attempts of being more creative were not successful, at least we'd appreciate the effort. He doesn't attempt enough killer passes and shots at the goal for my liking. He has to force himself, something has to give if he wants to become a regular starter because he ain't even one now. You can't give such an important role as a 10 to a player who is shy to try things.
And who knows, it might convince even Moyes to play him there from time to time.
It's all about self-belief I think. But we are talking about a player was the Player of the Year in Germany 2 seasons ago. It's a mystery to me, maybe he's overawed by playing for United. But then he's played in front of 80k at Dortmund. Complete mystery.
Why did Ferguson buy Kagawa then?
It's a catch 22 with Kagawa that people aren't getting. He needs a run of games to become good and become familiar with the team's movement. However he's not going to get into the team unless he showcases his talent in one performance. He's being put in a very hard spot. Compare that to what we did with Berbatov, when he first arrived. Despite Tevez playing much better at the start of the 2008-09 season, he was benched for Berbatov, and the reason given by many people for the switch was that Berbatov needed to be bedded in. Then again, I don't think we needed Berbatov, and that ended up with both Tevez and Berbatov leaving the club...
If a player is bought, they should be given a proper chance, a run of games in their preferred position. I can't think of any other player we have that has been asked to impress in an unfamiliar position before being moved to their proper position in the team. Kagawa has not been granted that. Yes, Rooney has been great (as a striker mind, not so much as a number 10), but our team would benefit in the long run if Kagawa was fully integrated into the squad. If we can't promise a new signing a proper chance, what's the point? At this point I would be fine with letting Kagawa leave for another team in December, at least he would have a new start at a team willing to use him in the proper way. It's not a criticism of Manchester United and Moyes, it's just that the signing has not worked out for any party.
I'd argue that Rooney is more of the AM/CF in a 4411. The barrier between attacking midfielder and a deep lying centre forward is so small that the two positions are essentially the same. Rooney's attributes that you mentioned can be hit and miss at times, but when he's on form there's no denying that he's a world class attacker.
We either play with one inside forward on the left, ie. Januzaj or Young and either a traditional winger on the right hand side in Valencia or Nani who you could argue is equally skilled in both roles.
You only have to look at Rooney's performance today to see how him playing as a CF is perfect for the team. He was everwhere, creating the goal for Valencia, linking the play with good link-up with Januzaj and then also being present in the defending side of the game, eg. his unfortunate OG.
I've yet to see anything from Kagawa to show that he'd give that kind of effort for the team, at the moment he looks disinterested and majorly lacking in confidence. And until he starts demonstrating that willingness to get involved more, I've got no problem with Moyes not playing him at all, let alone in his preferred position as a #10.
I'm assuming the plan was to play Rooney up top, with Kagawa behind but once Van Persie came available it was too good a deal to say no to.
You're right, Kagawa has suffered from the overstock of attacking talent that we have. And maybe he hasn't had a fair chance in his preferred role, but when you're at a club with the talents United have at their disposal, you need to impose yourself on the game in whatever position the manager plays you.
Moyes won't have played Kagawa on the left wing to make him a scapegoat so he can say "Look I gave him a chance" it's because he feels he's good enough to play there. And he might be, but he isn't showing it at all.
I think he bought Kagawa and RVP to replace Rooney. After Rooney's interview things never really got back as they used to be.
You say this but its pretty clear than Rooney is playing significantly deeper than Van Persie, which is making it more of a 4-2-3-1. That's why he's getting involved in the play so much more and averaging over twice the passes. It's not a 4-4-2 at all in my opinion
We can discuss all we want, but Klopp still said it best:
"Shinji Kagawa is one of the best players in the world and now he plays 20 minutes at Manchester United - on the left wing!
My heart breaks. Really, I have tears in my eyes.
Central midfield is Shinji's best role. He's an offensive midfielder with one of the best noses for goal I ever saw."
"Shinji Kagawa is one of the best players in the world and now he plays 20 minutes at Manchester United - on the left wing!
My heart breaks. Really, I have tears in my eyes.
Central midfield is Shinji's best role. He's an offensive midfielder with one of the best noses for goal I ever saw."
When Rooney keeps pumping the ball out to the wings, is unable to create chances out of nowhere(unless he brings out the striker in him), and needlessly loses the ball, it very much turns into a 4-4-2. Just because a striker drops deep, it doesn't turn him into an AM.
What are you talking about?
If a player is playing in attacking midfield then that's where he's playing. I don't understand what you're on about really, Rooney clearly isn't playing as a striker and it clearly isn't a 4-4-2.
Except he's not one of the best players in the world is he. And he didn't play in central midfield for Dortmund, he played almost even more attacking than Rooney is now, right off the front of Lewandwoski!
What about irrespective of form/confidence though? We've stuck with players through bad forms plenty of times in the past to know what sort of difference it can make..
I also think that we (rightly or wrongly, just pointing it out..) criticize more harshly his ability to impose himself on a game because of seeing young Adnan do it with ease. Adnan's a young lad playing without fear and in form, apart from him though - our players have generally struggled to impose themselves on games for a few years now. Rooney this season has managed to, but struggled plenty in other recent ones - even Van Persie has had plenty of games which he just can't force himself into to.
Like I said, I'm not saying it's wrong to compare, but if we compare to pretty much any other player of ours and Kagawa isn't any more out of place in this sense than most.
Ehm, Klopp points out that he's thinking about offensive central midfield. He just highlighted the "central" part to stress that Kagawa doesn't belong on the wing.
And it's bullshit that Kagawa didn't drop deep to help out the midfield for Dortmund. He did that just as often as Rooney, if not more. At least in those 20 or so Kagawa games I saw for Dortmund. It's only easier to notice Rooney dropping deep because of his aggressive style. Rooney runs after the ball. Kagawa runs after the play(in order to be available for passes). Those are two very different styles of defending. In the AM position, I think that Kagawa's defending style is much better than Rooney's. It's much more useful for the CM to have an extra passing option than it is to have an extra player making tackles.
Poor Kagawa, he's the only AM ever to be played on the left. 
Once again, Mad Winger is making people slate Kagawa purely because of his ridiculous bias.
Once again, Mad Winger is making people slate Kagawa purely because of his ridiculous bias.
It's all a matter of perception, really. The hole behind the striker is a tricky area to define. The player in that area should be a weird cross between a striker, a cm, and a winger, usually leaning a bit more towards one of the roles. If the player in the hole is a striker(or mainly does the job of a striker), it's completely fair to say that you're playing 4-4-2. Formations like 4-2-3-1 suggests that the player in the hole is an offensive midfielder. In other words, a creative central midfielder, who happens to be too much of an offensive threat to play in CM. This does not define Rooney at all! Rooney will first and foremost score goals. He will not control to the tempo or the flow of the passing game in the attacking third. He will not hold onto possession when he's deep into the opponents half. He will play the role of a mobile striker, who helps out the midfield by "bothering" the opponent when they have the ball. To call this role an "attacking midfielder" is stretching it. If anything, call it a deeplying striker.
What makes Kagawa unique, is that he's pretty much perfectly molded for the AM role. While he has a lot of qualities important for CMs, he's lacks the necessary aggression and interception ability to play there. It's the same story on the wing. He has good technique, decent speed, and has a good cross. But again, he's not aggressive enough in the sense that he's unwilling(and unable) to consistently take on defenders. A lot of his best abilities are also isolated in this position, making it all a terrible waste. As for the striker position, it's pretty obvious that he's not gonna cut it. Even with a good nose for goal, he's not clinical and explosive enough for this position..
The only "AM ability" that Kagawa "lacks" that I can think of, is a powerful longshot. Other than that, he has everything necessary to cut it at the highest level in this position. That's why he did so well for Dortmund. Not just because they were a better team or because their style suited him. Credit where credit's due: Kagawa might not be as versatile as the likes of Mata/Silva/Özil/Iniesta etc. But he's damn classy in the AM role! That you can't take away from him.
I do sympathise with Kagawa admittedly, and would like to see him given a run behind the striker. We need what Kagawa can offer on form more than what Rooney is offering even now, in my opinion. It's just that I can't really argue as passionately as someone like MW in favour of giving him this time when things like movement, expression and touch - possibly the most important attributes for a player playing ahead of the midfield - have been poorer regardless of his position on the field. Even in central areas these have not been at the level they have been in the past. When we are in the situation we are this season, with pretty much every player barring Rooney having underperformed considerably, I don't see it as being wise to displace Rooney.
It is clearly a confidence issue though, and it goes to show how important mindset actually is. I think at this point it's pretty clear that, when you reach a particular level of footballing talent, mentality makes a lot more difference than actual skill.
I can hardly understand why he seems unable to play well consistently. I'm not talking about bossing the play but just doing the basics right. He wasted the ball today in a manner I'd never expect him to. There were 2 or 3 simple passes that he managed to feck up which begs a question as both his footballing brain and execution has always been top-notch.
I still hope he turns brilliant for good. Too good a player not to.
I still hope he turns brilliant for good. Too good a player not to.
Let's just hope we don't drive Kagawa out for the fat one to then sod off for more money.
As I read this, Aaron Ramsey is giving his post match interview on MOTD.
Today he looked like a misfit, simply and brutally put.
He needs to use what he has - what he undoubtedly has - in a slightly different way. He needs to be more aggressive, take charge more, as it were. And these neat little attempts of his won't come off when his team mates aren't on the same wavelength - it's never going to work.
He needs to find a way to make a wide role of sorts his own - or he won't make it. That's the simple truth. At the moment he isn't much of an asset.
He needs to use what he has - what he undoubtedly has - in a slightly different way. He needs to be more aggressive, take charge more, as it were. And these neat little attempts of his won't come off when his team mates aren't on the same wavelength - it's never going to work.
He needs to find a way to make a wide role of sorts his own - or he won't make it. That's the simple truth. At the moment he isn't much of an asset.
Nail on head. The true winners such as SAF, Ronaldo are on a different level in terms of mentality.
And why players like Rooney and Nani have had so many ups and downs in the past. Rooney seems to have got his head down again this season (came back to pre-season looking really focussed and sharp) but let's see how long it lasts.
As for Kagawa, I think he can get through it but he might need a little bit of a break (an injury or loss of form of some other players in the squad) for him to be given the opportunity and confidence make a starting berth his own.
Wonder will he push for a move in January?
I rate him as high as his biggest fans, he is a great footballer. However, when he is out there, he just looks like he will be on of those players that just won't work out. I don't know how he is taking to English life, the language and all that but as a few have said, he just looks out of place.
I would love to see him have a big career at United because he is a wonderful footballer but from what we have seen so far, the moments of class and brilliance and getting further and further apart. Right player, wrong time in my opinion. Praying I'm wrong though.
I would love to see him have a big career at United because he is a wonderful footballer but from what we have seen so far, the moments of class and brilliance and getting further and further apart. Right player, wrong time in my opinion. Praying I'm wrong though.
He has already played for us this season.
Who would spend money on him in January
I'd imagine Dortmund would quite gladly, as they're a club that would look at the bigger picture rather than worrying about him being cup-tied for the CL. Whether we'd have any incentive to sell in January is another matter entirely.
You dont have to be a transfer muppet to realise we need to sign a midfielder. Our wings are sorted so are our strikers and AM. You are obsessed with Kagawa and want to bench RVP or Rooney for his sake which is just ridiculous. If we really needed an AM we would have bought Ozil, we don't cause we have Rooney. I wish we would sell him back to Dortmunt that way you could you go and support them too.
It would make no footballing or business sense to let Kagawa leave in January.
It's probably just me but for some reason this Klopp stuff with Kagawa really pisses me off.
Fair enough he's an ex-player of his and he likes him but it seems like he reels out these quotes and everyone takes it as gospel. The German league is different to the premier league, not every player works out as a great signing regardless of quality and equally as has been said many times here Rooney is playing great football in the position Kagawa is playing.
Yes he is playing out of position, you'd forgive some positionally lack of awareness but it's not that at all. He just seems to fail to get in to games and is a passenger. Yesterday he was drifting in to the middle and didn't stand out at all.
I hope it does work out because it's never nice to see a player fail but for all the stick Moyes got for not playing him it does look like he has been proven right. He just doesn't look good enough to be playing. Maybe you are out of position but then the likes of Rooney and Welbeck play out of position at times and do a much better job. Phil Jones was out of position yesterday and in the 1st half in particular looked good enough and that's a much harder positional switch than that of what Kagawa has been asked to do.
Honest question but why are people willing to excuse him so many times? I really don't get it, especially this season. The likes of Valencia, Young and Cleverley have got plenty of stick this season but Kagawa gets away with it when in reality he hasn't been that much better than any of them 3.
Looked like a little boy lost again yesterday. He's getting few chances in the team but he has to take them when they come.
He's going the Berba route in that we're denting his pride and confidence. When he first came he spoke openly about getting his team mates to improve on the movement and you could see he felt it was job to dictate during games. Now he's playing under a new manager who isn't giving him regular playing time and he's being asked to do a job he doesn't enjoy. Unless Moyes has written him off he needs to start handling the mentality of his players.
Its difficult for Moyes to change things up to be fair but I'm with MW that Rooney is an individually great player but he ain't a number 10. Our midfield needs to be a lit better than it is to support Rooney. Kagawa or even Adnan would give us a better balanced team.
As long as Rooney is performing he ain't going to get dropped though no matter how much he weakens our set up
Its difficult for Moyes to change things up to be fair but I'm with MW that Rooney is an individually great player but he ain't a number 10. Our midfield needs to be a lit better than it is to support Rooney. Kagawa or even Adnan would give us a better balanced team.
As long as Rooney is performing he ain't going to get dropped though no matter how much he weakens our set up
I can't agree with this at all, Rooney drops so far to help our midfield at times that he may as well be a midfielder (just don't tell him that, he'll get upset and want to leave). He influences games like most of the best #10's can't. Look at the Chelsea #10's yesterday, they were losing and none of them looked capable of turning the tide for their team. Silva and Nasri both tend to disappear when their team struggles too (it's usually Yaya or Aguero who have to drive their team on) Rooney on the other hand has basically carried us at times this season when we've struggled.
The idea that Rooney is better individually but worse as a middle ground between our attack and midfield is nonsensical to me, he's our most important player, our most influential player and anyone who thinks Kagawa can fix the problems he can't is deluded.
EDIT: Oh and the last paragraph, he weakens our setup? fecking hell.
When Klopp talks about a player it often sounds like they'd be deserving world player of the year winners, doesn't matter if it's his best player or a role player filling in because of someone is injured. What Klopp said about Kagawa really shouldn't be taken that seriously. The whole interview with the Guardian in which he talked about Kagawa sounded crazy emotional and over the top, I don't think I've ever heard a grown man talking about his heart and his emotions, how he cried or could not speak, like that in public ever. I like Klopp a lot but often enough he gets carried away in his way of talking and he really doesn't realize what it actually means to the ones listening or even worse reading quotes.
The annoying thing is when someone uses it out of context to make his point and therefore disrespects the decisions of Ferguson/Moyes. That surely wasn't what Klopp was trying to say, whatever it was and if Dortmund played United, you probably would read quotes from him about Rooney being one of the best players in the world and being incredibly dangerous to play against.
Overrated based on nothing more than playing for Dortmund - every second persons secret favourite team suddenly it seems.
Looking/pushing/demanding a move? Don't make me laugh, on current form he'd be lucky not to be flogged into league 1.
Looking/pushing/demanding a move? Don't make me laugh, on current form he'd be lucky not to be flogged into league 1.
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