Yep I would rather give Janujaz chances than Kagawa.
Shinji Kagawa
- Thread starter Baby Faced Assassin
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
- Status
Yep I would rather give Janujaz chances than Kagawa.
No argument there. Play him in his favourite position as often as that is possible. Moyes has a lot of attacking players on his hands, though. He will have to impress - really impress - in that role in order to make way for himself. I think, as I've said, he needs to show that he can be consistently good in a wider position first - and then Moyes will really warm to him, so to speak. It's tough breaks - but that's the reality right now, I think.
I really don't see any justification to play Kagawa as a no.10 instead of Rooney unless we had goal-scoring wingers/wing-forwards who looked to get into the box more frequently. We don't have many productive players. RVP and Rooney are by far our two most productive, probably followed by Hernandez who can't get a game either!
I can't see Rooney in a wide role unless we shifted away from the 4231/442 kind of model we have and switched to a Barca style 433, so that the wing forwards are very advanced, with the AM deeper. But even then I'm not sure it'd suit Rooney, and I'm not sure how Kagawa would do deeper either.
I can't see Rooney in a wide role unless we shifted away from the 4231/442 kind of model we have and switched to a Barca style 433, so that the wing forwards are very advanced, with the AM deeper. But even then I'm not sure it'd suit Rooney, and I'm not sure how Kagawa would do deeper either.
Based on his form this season do you think he should be dropped out of the No.10 position?
And how exactly do you know that? All I've seen him do is play with commitment and contribute probably more than any other player in the squad.
I think Smalling is an alien, I don't like the idea of us having an alien at CB, it's just not right, what would the young humans coming up think 'here's this big fecking alien, how am I meant to get a game with him here'....... will we continue along the lines of who should or shouldn't be dropped because of what we believe - because I haven't even started on the whole 'is Nani in fact made of wax' thing - or should we just let the manager pick the team based on form?
The main difference between Rooney and Kagawa's off-the-ball defensive movement is that the former runs after the ball, whereas the latter runs after the play. In the AM position, having the grit and roughness to come at players is a luxury skill, not really needed. It's way more important to always be there for the CM to support them.
Kagawa's coach back in Japan stated that this is what makes Kagawa special. It's not just that he has intelligence and brilliant technique. It's his constant moving around that makes him a truly great player.
It's easier to notice Rooney's defensive off-the-ball movements because he's chasing the ball more than anything. He's also way more aggressive. It's all very noticeable to the spectator. It's the same reason for why Carrick was underrated for so long. People didn't appreaciate all his movement in the other areas of the pitch, because it's hard to focus on what's happening in the areas where the ball isn't located.
All in all: playing with Kagawa in the no.10 role is like playing with an extra CM who's allowed to attack. Playing with Rooney is like playing with a mobile striker who's allowed to drop deeper. It makes all the difference in the world, and frankly, I'm surprised at how many people there are who can't see this. Rooney and Kagawa is essentially the difference between 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-2. None of the formations are better than the other, but the latter requires a much better midfield than we currently have. Which is why we should turn to the former, and let Rooney and RVP fight for the striker position, with Kagawa occasionally playing as winger.
Agreed.
I have to say I think his performance seems to be being exaggerated. I thought for the opening 60 mins he had the same problems that he always has: lack of strength causging him to get knocked off the ball, lack of focus causing him to give the ball away needlessly and a lack of urgency which causes the opposition to get organised.
He improved between 60-85 minutes when he changed position, but lets not act like he came alive ala Messi. He went from poor - good. What I am disappointed is that he can't get the basics correct from the left. There was a particular point where he passed the ball and sold (I think Evra) short, only for us to win the ball back instantly and him again misplace a simple pass (2 passes within 15 seconds).
He needs to start at least doing the basics correctly when he is on the pitch in order to get more chances in his preferred position. If he can't put in 5-6 consistent 7/10 performances from the left he won't get the opportunity to put in a 9/10 performance through the middle; and rightly so.
On current form if we were to play a true 4-2-3-1 it should be:
__Carrick Cleverley
Valencia Januzaj Nani
___RVP or Rooney
Thank god I'm not the only one.
I'm not one to be overly critical of our players, particularly reasonably new ones, but I'm asking myself if I'm missing something with Kagawa.
I certainly don't see anything that would justify a starting spot at the weekend, much less dropping Rooney for him.
If Giggs can play in central midfield, I don't see why Kagawa can't.
It wouldn't be optimal.
Januzaj isn't a number 10. He's a winger/wide forward. I've not seen much that would indicate he would excel in that position. He would be good at it, but why can't we just play players in their fecking proper positions? Strikers up front, wingers out wide, and Rooney/Kagawa in the "10" position?
Possibly.
It would be more optimal than playing Giggs or Fellaini there.
I think he and Hernandez are getting in each others way, with Hernandez currently being favoured. When Van Persie is rested it should be Kagawa off Rooney IMO, but Hernandez's great form and similar need for games makes it difficult to nt pick him too.
I think it may boil down to a decision between Kagawa and Hernandez in the summer, as much as I like Hernandez I think I'd rather see Kagawa stay and get more opportunities to stake his claim as one of the two strikers.
I think it may boil down to a decision between Kagawa and Hernandez in the summer, as much as I like Hernandez I think I'd rather see Kagawa stay and get more opportunities to stake his claim as one of the two strikers.
Januzaj is a number 10. That's his best position and Moyes seems to agree
I said once in awhile, not that he should displace Rooney. Also, Kagawa isn't your typical number 10. He's a goal scoring midfielder so our goal threat wouldn't be lessened as much as if we played David silva there. He was more a final third player at Dortmund if I'm correct than a playmaker anyway.
Aren't you the one who just said "why can't we just play players in their fecking proper positions? Strikers up front, wingers out wide, and Rooney/Kagawa in the 10 position? " ??? Be consistent with your views, you're all over the place.
That'd a decent point with regards to Kagawa and Hernandez. And it's not thee easiest call. But then surely Rooney will also once in awhile be rotated giving Kagawa an opportunity, like Hernandez gets upfront, in the no.10 position.
What have Nani or Valencia done to displace Rooney or Van Persie?
Rooney has been our best player this season so he would walk into the team. And whilst RVP hasn't been great, if you're dropping him then the person taking his place must really stake a claim - that hasn't happened with Nani at all.
Well since we won't play players in their proper positions, it's worth a shot, but in a perfect world that wouldn't be the case.
Yeah he looks a proper number 10 to me.
They're wingers, who can provide width. Rooney has been our best player this season, so if we were playing a 4-2-3-1 then he would be the go to striker. Januzaj would be the default winger on the left. Kagawa would be the default no 10. Let Nani and Valencia duke it out for the position on the right. Rotate as needed.
And I might be missing something, but Januzaj does best running at the defense, not in a static position. Against Stoke he looked as lost as the rest of the team, when we were facing 2 banks of 4.
Yeah, it's just a case of being 'next in line' after Rooney and RVP, because I think both he and Hernandez are too good to be anything less than that. Not sure how Moyes would play it when he wants to rotate Rooney, it would make most sense to play Kagawa (promising that he did so last night to be fair), but he also has the option of Hernandez up top with RVP just off him and it will boil down to who he would rather keep happy and prefers.
I'm sure it would spilt opinion on here if it we had to choose between Shinji or Javier.
It's also worth a shot to play to keep playing the current real CM in those positions.
Hernandez can play with either striker and Kagawa. Kagawa can play with any of our 3 strikers. RVP can play with Shinji and Hernandez. Rooney can play with Shinji and Hernandez. At the moment Rooney and Hernandez has potential to be our best pairing.
I wasn't replying to you
Yeah, you'd expect him to chip in with a few goals but nowhere near as many as Rooney does, but you'd also want him to be threading through the wingers/midfielders into goalscoring positions too. I just don't see us having enough goals in us unless we had at least one winger who could get 15+ goals a season, and preferably a goalscoring box to box midfielder too. The problem is, with so many under performing or unproductive wingers there is simply no way at all that we should ever be leaving RVP or Rooney on the bench in any game of importance.
I know they are wingers..?
Valencia--Rooney--Januzaj
-------- Van Persie -----
That is a 4-2-3-1 and doesn't drop either of our best players.
Yes, he's a winger. Personally I think the hype over Januzaj is to extreme levels if people think he's a number 10, but that's my opinion, and I may be speaking guff.
Januzaj is definitely mainly an attacking midfielder IMO, or a #10, but most of you on here are using Rooney as a basis for a #10 which is wrong. Rooney is more of a striker, whereas Kagawa is much closer to your normal #10, players like Ozil, Gotze, Mata, or Silva. Januzaj is much closer to those players then he is to Rooney, and Rooney is pretty much a striker playing deeper, but he still has a strikers mentality and not the mentality of midfielders. Januzaj is just equally comfortable on the wings, but long term I think he's definitely a #10 player. He's most effective when given a free role, roaming around the 3 behind the striker, like Ozil is, and not being restricted to a wing like many on here are suggesting would be his best position.
Edit: Did not realize this was the Kagawa thread... looked like the Januzaj thread based on the posts on this page
Edit: Did not realize this was the Kagawa thread... looked like the Januzaj thread based on the posts on this page
Rooney's not even a #10.
He plays as a second striker.
He plays as a second striker.
Yep.Rooney's not even a #10.
He plays as a second striker.
Which is why Moyes has to bite the bullet and give him a run there with Rooney and RvP alternating (or shifting Rooney wide). I don't give two shits if they are both currently the better overall players, we have to be building a team looking at the future and not design something which best suits the current personnel.
Mind you, I wouldn't play him against Arsenal, he needs to grow into that role over a few games before we put our chips on that in such a big game.
I don't see the logic in that. It happens sometimes that this is the natural trajectory for a player but it is patently clear there's no point transforming Kagawa into a winger. He simply isn't nor will ever be good enough or more effective than our other options. The silver lining for me from yesterday's experiment was to bring that point home, it couldn't possibly be overlooked, that's how clear it was.
I stated early on that expecting a winger or even a wide midfielder is going to give you false expectations because all he can offer at this level is the job of a AM. Moyes has recognized it as well after playing around with Kagawa's role, and is using him more and more centrally for every game.
I can't wait to see Kagawa as a pure AM with preferably RvP and Rooney in front of him, or one of Hernandez/Welbeck could do the job. I think he will positively surprise us all when he has a pure role of destroying opponents defences and delivering risky long/medium ranged balls to a efficient outlet.
I can't wait to see Kagawa as a pure AM with preferably RvP and Rooney in front of him, or one of Hernandez/Welbeck could do the job. I think he will positively surprise us all when he has a pure role of destroying opponents defences and delivering risky long/medium ranged balls to a efficient outlet.
Aye.
Yes. He should not play every game at the no 10. He's a striker.
I'm excited for you only having seen him play with commitment and contribute. I wished i had missed yesterday's game, as well.
Well, Kagawa has now played 35-40 minutes in the AM position in two very different game styles(though against the same opponent), and he was our best player by far in all of these minutes. We shouldn't underestimate Sociedad either. They're a Spanish side that managed to qualify for the CL, and they've only lost twice at home in 2013. Barcelona lost to them, and Real Madrid only managed a draw.
Kagawa has taken his chances really well in the AM position so far this season. He should be rewarded for that. It all boils down to whether or not Moyes has the balls to do so.
Kagawa has taken his chances really well in the AM position so far this season. He should be rewarded for that. It all boils down to whether or not Moyes has the balls to do so.
He created what should have been two simple chances.
No one else on the pitch did that.
I find it baffling. One of the best teams in the world playing players out of position all over the pitch. Why not move Smalling up to the wing while we're at it?
100% correct. Amazing how people see Rooney as a No.10 in the same mould as a Kagawa type. Rooneys instinct is to lay ball off and join rvp in the box.
Since Moyes isn't likely (well we never know in the future, suspensions,injuries bla bla bla ....) to play Kagawa ahead of Rooney in that position what other alternative is there to get the best of him ?
- Status