Shinji Kagawa

Status
Not open for further replies.
Brophs said:
That's about right. I think he's one of the most talented players at the club. At his very best I think he's probably one of the best players in the league. The problem is we haven't seen it. Obviously that's not completely down to him as he's playing sporadically in a team which has had its problems, in a system he's apparently not especially comfortable with, and often in a position that requires him to do things which are not strong points in his game.

But this rush from some posters to denigrate the team and our tactics to spare Kagawa from criticism is galling, not least using 'zombie passing/movement' as a mindless catch all for when we play poorly.
Click to expand...


Agree with all of that.

The criticisms that have been flowing on the CAF(generally variants of Zombie passing movement or similar) after the Hull and Norwich games are really misplaced IMO. As far as I am concerned if we beat Spurs, we have transformed our season in three weeks from being completely off the pace and heading ominously towards mid table to back into the mix for the top four. We are only two points off the Dippers and 3 off third and no matter whatever happens in the remaining games today, we would have gained on another rival.

I don't know about anyone else but we were so far off the chasing pack that every game has been like a cup final in the last 3 weeks and we have managed to win every single one, with an absolutely massive injury list, players who were obviously rock bottom for confidence, a manager who was under huge strain/pressure and in the last two games with half a team who are clearly physically fatigued. To have achieved what we have is easily the first time this season we have risen to the occasion and passed every single test. It would not have taken much for the 6 points we got against Norwich and Hull to have been 4 or 2 and we were really in a situation where that was not good enough.

The football, cohesion, style and performances should be expected in the second half of the season when we should have plenty of injured players back, much more confidence and a certain level of momentum from whittling away the leads others had. If there is no improvement then fair enough, it's time to complain then. But to complain about it when we are gradually salvaging what could have been a disaster season in a busy period of games with a big injury list is so far removed from the way I feel I don't get it. I'm relieved and elated the way we have reacted since that Newcastle defeat.
 
I havent watched our games since west ham so I dont really have clue how we've been performing other than skimming through match reports. i did read v norwich that kagawa is still suffering from illness and that's according to moyes so i guess he's not up to speed? i dont know.

Do you guys feel we should sell him? Has he had enough chances? From the perspectives of some of our fans on social media, he hasn't taken advantage of the opportunities he's been given, others have said he just doesnt suit our team.
 
He's a talented lad who has likely not been used in his ideal AM role. Given that Rooney and Welbeck are ahead of Kagawa there, Moyes may want to evaluate moving him on this summer or even earlier. Would love to see him return to Dortmund as part exchange for someone like Gundogan or Reus (however unlikely).
 
He was looking quite promising before he got ill. There's no reason he can't find that form again with a few games as he builds up his match fitness. Let's not write him off because of a below-par performance on his return from illness.
 
Brophs said:
That's about right. I think he's one of the most talented players at the club. At his very best I think he's probably one of the best players in the league. The problem is we haven't seen it. Obviously that's not completely down to him as he's playing sporadically in a team which has had its problems, in a system he's apparently not especially comfortable with, and often in a position that requires him to do things which are not strong points in his game.

But this rush from some posters to denigrate the team and our tactics to spare Kagawa from criticism is galling, not least using 'zombie passing/movement' as a mindless catch all for when we play poorly.
Click to expand...


The zombie passing thread was created in Aug 2012. Nothing has changed. We've been playing this way for years now. It's an appropriate criticism and relevant to the thread.

Kagawa is a player that will never work with players who stand around. Kagawa may not be the answer but players like him are.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
The zombie passing thread was created in Aug 2012. Nothing has changed. We've been playing this way for years now. It's an appropriate criticism and relevant to the thread.

Kagawa is a player that will never work with players who stand around. Kagawa may not be the answer but players like him are.
Click to expand...

Agree. Particularly the first part. People are acting like it was Moyes who inflicted this shite, slow, static football on us. It wasn't. We've been like this for years.

We do need to move toward a more mobile style of football so that our players are able to pass (or even fecking throw) the ball to each other properly. Kagawa is not a player that will thrive in a team as static as ours but we should be looking to craft a team where players like him will thrive.

I'm not necessarily defending Kagawa's underwhelming performances. He has an excuse for not thriving but not for playing so poorly and anonymously.
 
Lets do a slight resume of what happened before Kagawa and RVP signed with us. Rooney criticized the team and that same summer the club spent big on a world class strker (RVP) and a very promising attacking midfielder who done wonders at Dortmund playing in the hole (Rooney is perfectly comfortable in both roles). Then SAF spent the entire season playing Rooney in the wrong position and created a mountain out of a molehill by going in the open about a private chat he had with Rooney. Does that ring a bell?

In my opinion its pretty evident that Kagawa-RVP signing were meant not to strengthen the team's quality but to replace someone called Wayne Rooney. With Moyes taking over, it was evident that one of them would end up redundant and it turned out to be Kagawa.

I think that we're not selling him for the simple reason that Rooney haven't yet signed the contract. Once that is achieved Kagawa will be allowed to leave and the money will be spent not to settle the manager's feuds but in for the good of the club ie CM.
 
devilish said:
Lets do a slight resume of what happened before Kagawa and RVP signed with us. Rooney criticized the team and that same summer the club spent big on a world class strker (RVP) and a very promising attacking midfielder who done wonders at Dortmund playing in the hole (Rooney is perfectly comfortable in both roles). Then SAF spent the entire season playing Rooney in the wrong position and created a mountain out of a molehill by going in the open about a private chat he had with Rooney. Does that ring a bell?

In my opinion its pretty evident that Kagawa-RVP signing were meant not to strengthen the team's quality but to replace someone called Wayne Rooney. With Moyes taking over, it was evident that one of them would end up redundant and it turned out to be Kagawa.

I think that we're not selling him for the simple reason that Rooney haven't yet signed the contract. Once that is achieved Kagawa will be allowed to leave and the money will be spent not to settle the manager's feuds but in for the good of the club ie CM.
Click to expand...


is correct.
 
AlwaysRedwood said:
The zombie passing thread was created in Aug 2012. Nothing has changed. We've been playing this way for years now. It's an appropriate criticism and relevant to the thread.

Kagawa is a player that will never work with players who stand around. Kagawa may not be the answer but players like him are.
Click to expand...

This. I've been saying this for a while now. The sooner we move away from this slow static rubbish we've been producing ( by buying a proper playmaker and winger), the sooner we can stop relying on individuals carrying us and instead watch us play a system in which many players will shine as a team, kagawa included.
 
Freak said:
This. I've been saying this for a while now. The sooner we move away from this slow static rubbish we've been producing ( by buying a proper playmaker and winger), the sooner we can stop relying on individuals carrying us and instead watch us play a system in which many players will shine as a team, kagawa included.
Click to expand...
I pretty much agree and really hope we find a way to get the best out of Kagawa and also him finally stepping up
 
devilish said:
Lets do a slight resume of what happened before Kagawa and RVP signed with us. Rooney criticized the team and that same summer the club spent big on a world class strker (RVP) and a very promising attacking midfielder who done wonders at Dortmund playing in the hole (Rooney is perfectly comfortable in both roles). Then SAF spent the entire season playing Rooney in the wrong position and created a mountain out of a molehill by going in the open about a private chat he had with Rooney. Does that ring a bell?

In my opinion its pretty evident that Kagawa-RVP signing were meant not to strengthen the team's quality but to replace someone called Wayne Rooney. With Moyes taking over, it was evident that one of them would end up redundant and it turned out to be Kagawa.

I think that we're not selling him for the simple reason that Rooney haven't yet signed the contract. Once that is achieved Kagawa will be allowed to leave and the money will be spent not to settle the manager's feuds but in for the good of the club ie CM.
Click to expand...

Great post.
 
devilish said:
Lets do a slight resume of what happened before Kagawa and RVP signed with us. Rooney criticized the team and that same summer the club spent big on a world class strker (RVP) and a very promising attacking midfielder who done wonders at Dortmund playing in the hole (Rooney is perfectly comfortable in both roles). Then SAF spent the entire season playing Rooney in the wrong position and created a mountain out of a molehill by going in the open about a private chat he had with Rooney. Does that ring a bell?

In my opinion its pretty evident that Kagawa-RVP signing were meant not to strengthen the team's quality but to replace someone called Wayne Rooney. With Moyes taking over, it was evident that one of them would end up redundant and it turned out to be Kagawa.

I think that we're not selling him for the simple reason that Rooney haven't yet signed the contract. Once that is achieved Kagawa will be allowed to leave and the money will be spent not to settle the manager's feuds but in for the good of the club ie CM.
Click to expand...
When did Rooney criticise the team in 2012 which led to Van Persie signing for us? Also, are you referring to last season when you say that Rooney was being played out of position?
 
devilish said:
Lets do a slight resume of what happened before Kagawa and RVP signed with us. Rooney criticized the team and that same summer the club spent big on a world class strker (RVP) and a very promising attacking midfielder who done wonders at Dortmund playing in the hole (Rooney is perfectly comfortable in both roles). Then SAF spent the entire season playing Rooney in the wrong position and created a mountain out of a molehill by going in the open about a private chat he had with Rooney. Does that ring a bell?

In my opinion its pretty evident that Kagawa-RVP signing were meant not to strengthen the team's quality but to replace someone called Wayne Rooney. With Moyes taking over, it was evident that one of them would end up redundant and it turned out to be Kagawa.

I think that we're not selling him for the simple reason that Rooney haven't yet signed the contract. Once that is achieved Kagawa will be allowed to leave and the money will be spent not to settle the manager's feuds but in for the good of the club ie CM.
Click to expand...

Could be true, but it isn't. SAF had no intention on buying a striker that summer. We only bought RVP because he suddenly became available at such a low price SAF has pointed this out numerous times.
 
I'm not so sure Fergie brought in Kagawa and RVP with a mind to letting Rooney go. There's a good chance he wouldn't have done anything to keep him if he hadn't retired, given what happened - but I doubt he was thinking actively about letting Rooney go at the time of the transfer(s).

I think Fergie regarded Kagawa as a player in the Hazard bracket - a tricky, little offensive player who could be employed both centrally and wide. And who could provide goals. He was after such a player - a Ronaldo replacement of sorts. I doubt he brought him in with the explicit idea to use him as a number ten, thus replacing Rooney in that role.

RVP was a bonus, I think. He became available - which was a surprise to most people, that he was actually available for us to buy, that is - and the opportunity was too good to pass on. Again, I doubt it was part of any thought-out strategy to phase Rooney out.
 
Agreed. I thought he bought them with a mind to making United less reliant on Rooney, rather than to actively replace him. It was reaching the point where we had no-one to replace him as a creator or as a finisher, so Fergie bought a class player in each role. And it worked. Rooney has been playing well creatively for a couple of seasons so Kagawa wasn't needed much, which possibly contributed to him being slow to settle in here. Last season Rooney was struggling to provide the goals at times, so RVP's contribution was key. But in a way it was the strategy behind both signings, not just the signing of RVP, which led to us winning the title.
 
MoneyMay said:
When did Rooney criticise the team in 2012 which led to Van Persie signing for us? Also, are you referring to last season when you say that Rooney was being played out of position?
Click to expand...


Got the dates wrong but the argument still stands. Rooney did the interview at around October 2010. Just two summer transfer windows later we ended up signing two quality players who 'hint:hint' played in Rooney's role rather then tackle the weak CM that had been screaming for quality reinforcements for years. In 2012-2013 Rooney was being played less in his position (Rooney himself complained about that) with SAF created a mountain out of a molehill by going public about Rooney's so called transfer requests which placed new manager Moyes into a rather annoying situation.

I have followed United for enough time to know that no matter how important a player is, those who criticize SAF or our system tend to have a short career span at United. It may not be possible to replace them immediately but one day or another the only way will be out and usually it would be painful indeed.

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11667_6456970,00.html
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Could be true, but it isn't. SAF had no intention on buying a striker that summer. We only bought RVP because he suddenly became available at such a low price SAF has pointed this out numerous times.
Click to expand...


RVP was not the only 'deal too good to refuse' which we allowed not to get involved into. Lets face it, it was always to be very difficult to fit 3 quality players like Kagawa, Rooney and RVP in a team which usually play with 1 striker upfront backed by a player playing in the hole.

Money would have been better spent in CM UNLESS SAF was planning to get rid of someone whose pretty important in the team but whom he didn't liked very much/wasn't committing himself to our cause for the long run.
 
devilish said:
RVP was not the only 'deal too good to refuse' which we allowed not to get involved into. Lets face it, it was always to be very difficult to fit 3 quality players like Kagawa, Rooney and RVP in a team which usually play with 1 striker upfront backed by a player playing in the hole.

Money would have been better spent in CM UNLESS SAF was planning to get rid of someone whose pretty important in the team but whom he didn't liked very much/wasn't committing himself to our cause for the long run.
Click to expand...

It's not the wildest theory I've heard, admittedly. Fergie might have carried a grudge over what happened in 2010 - I don't see that as impossible. And with the arrival of RVP he didn't have to rely on Rooney for goals to the same extent - and could thus allow himself to treat him less gingerly, if you will. All of this points to a relationship between the two of them which was - perhaps - souring somewhat.

But the problem with the theory is nevertheless that both the RVP and Kagawa transfers are typical Fergie movies that he would have pulled even if Rooney had been like a son to him. Fergie was an idiosyncratic old sod. Most other managers would have splashed the combined transfer fees of Kagawa and RVP on a top notch CM. Not Fergie, though. He thought he'd get away with the CM options he had - and rather went for that extra attacking strength. And it paid off, yet again.

In short, I don't think Fergie was planning on letting Rooney go. He liked Rooney too much as a player. More so, I think, than any of the other stars he fell out with over the years. And there was still a place for Rooney in his team - if Rooney himself wanted it. As it turned out, he didn't - or so it can be interpreted. But even that isn't clear cut. Who knows - if Fergie had stayed on, the two of them might have worked things out. In many ways I think Rooney is an easier person to handle than, say, RVN was. If he had been the absolute egomaniac and manipulator some make him out to be - he would've been gone by now.
 
The day we signed him, I was over the moon but more and more I think he'll end up not coming close to the player so many were excited were getting. The way we play and the continued use of him on the left - we won't ever but, perhaps on rare days see him really influence games.

Think it may be for the benefit of both parties that he moves on in the summer. We keep trying to play a player in a position he is not suited for because of his potential and the team suffers for it and he continues to play in a position / team where he won't get to play his best.
 
He needs to do better himself no doubt about that, others have said that he needs players to play a certain way but that just speaks of his own limitationsthan anything, same as when people say Clev needs someone who will pass/move quick. However I do think if he was given a run in the hole with players like Januzaj and Nani either side, players who will make the runs he thrives on that he will look better, same as how Rooney seems to do better when the other player he's partnered with stretches the opposition and opens space for him.

Additionally I think until cm is sorted out we'd struggle with any player of his ilk in a wide spot. Other players might have more to their game and so might do better in the more isolated wing role than he does, but I don't think any of them would be able to show their best unless they can drift freely from the wing and to do that they need a midfield that can cover them if they vacate their flank and also a midfield that can get them the ball in the right areas.
 
That's brilliant. I love how they celebrated that second goal like a real game.

Wonder how Messi would have done it.
 
Hugely disappointed with Kagawa, he seems gutless and lacks any initiative. He always comes across as somebody who passes the himself out of attention so to speak. Journeyman.
 
He came on today, would get the ball, look up to see who is moving around him, and what he can begin.

Surprise, everyone is stood still.

I just hope in January we sign at least one decent midfielder to give Kagawa a chance of showing what he is capable, before he leaves us (and shows what he is capable of)
 
Hasn't shown anything in a United shirt yet, he just doesn't seem to fit pur style and will be another Veron imo.
 
Tibs said:
He came on today, would get the ball, look up to see who is moving around him, and what he can begin.

Surprise, everyone is stood still.

I just hope in January we sign at least one decent midfielder to give Kagawa a chance of showing what he is capable, before he leaves us (and shows what he is capable of)
Click to expand...

Totally agree with this. It would help if the other players actually returned the ball to him quickly, instead of waiting 10 seconds then passing it backwards.
 
Well not sure how putting him and rooney together as CMs helped proceedings. He was okay but I guess that's the problem people have with him. As much as we can point the finger at him or any player, still feel the issues are throughout the team.

He was positive I thought when he came on but obviously that's not enough
 
Ballache said:
Hasn't shown anything in a United shirt yet, he just doesn't seem to fit pur style and will be another Veron imo.
Click to expand...

You're right - he doesn't fit a style of play that involves either everyone standing around and the ball being hoofed from the back, or the ball being constantly shifted out to Valencia, resulting in an inevitable misplaced cross.
 
Doesn't work at United. Aside from a few good performances he has shown nothing. Another player that should be sold and clear the wages. Sad but true. Would have loved to have seen him make it here but looks really, really unlikely now.
 
Put him in centre mid next to Carrick, surely can't be any worse then the others. He's obviously not suited to us and his time is coming to an end, but at least make use of him while he's here. Who knows, it might even work out.
 
I'd sell him in January to fund a centre mid to be honest. A quality player, we're just the wrong club for him unfortunately.
 
Thought we could have gotten more from him off Welbeck today, especially with Januzaj coming inside on to his left, than Hernandez and Welbeck as a two up front.
 
Pointless. He was jogging about on the half-way line making short time consuming passes when we were chasing the game at the death.
 
A fine player, but I don't see it ever working for him here. His mentality hasn't been great, and for a player whom some claim is some sort of creative genius, he shows a staggering lack of progressive passing and impetus.

Astonishingly ridiculous that some have claimed and perhaps still claim Kagawa to be better than Rooney and/or Özil. It's just such a bizarre, baseless opinion.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.