This. A set 11 needs an extended run of matches together to have any sort of cohesion. And Valencia, Young, Evra should be kept far away from that.
Won't happen though.
Shinji Kagawa
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Won't happen though.
While I don't agree that he is too good for the squad, I understand where he is coming from. He is far different to anything we have had.
But your point that top players will always shine through no matter what is just wrong. Many great players have gone to clubs and haven't produced for all kinds of reasons.
I doubt the reasons are ever that they are too good for the squad
Great players find a way past a hindrance and still put in good numbers. Kagawa's productivity has been poor for us, he's easily a 15+ assists-a-season player, and though the system has let him down, it isn't the only thing that has stopped him. His own performances could be better. Look at Ibrahimovic for example. He didn't suit Barcelona's system - Messi needed a point of reference to drag players away, but Ibrahimovic wanted to be something a bit more. Nonetheless, he achieved some great performances, scored crucial goals, and set up goals. I thought Kagawa's performance was good yesterday, he looked dangerous in the middle, which is no shock, but he can't do much when the system fails him. I agree with you on that. Fans can downplay this, but it's crucial to get the best out of him. The interplay and one-touch pass to Welbeck is exactly what we need more of.
Does that not apply to every forward player in our team?
I'll be the first to admit that Kagawa is not having a very good season in the Premier League.
But why is he having a mediocre season now? Never mind Dortmund and Japan; he was also good for us under Fergie! No, he wasn't brilliant or world class like he was for Dortmund, but he was still good. Significantly better than he is now, anyways. So, what is different this season compared to last? Why is Kagawa so anonymous on the left now, when he's playing with pretty much the same team in the same league? Why isn't he scoring or assisting anymore, when he last season had great stats in this department, almost on par with Hazard for Chelsea? Hmm... Could it be the changes that happened under Moyes?
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Let's look at the huge differences between Kagawa under Fergie and Moyes:
1. Under Fergie, Kagawa started the season by becoming Player Of The Month in August. He also started roughly 5 out of the 6 first PL games, half the time in his favored position if I'm not mistaken. Under Moyes, Kagawa didn't even start the season. He was left out in the cold for more than a month.
2. Under Fergie, Kagawa started roughly 75% of the PL games when he wasn't injured. Under Moyes so far, he's started roughly 35%. It's also worth keeping in mind that Fergie would play Kagawa regardless of form. This is because he was confident in his qualities. And wouldn't you know: it payed off! By the end of the season, Kagawa had become one of our better players, looking sharper each game. Sure, he wasn't nearly as good as he was for Dortmund, but given that he was improving game by game and easily was our best winger, it made perfect sense to continue playing him on the left. Especially considering the fact that switching him to the central position is a powerful weapon.
3. Under Fergie, Kagawa would start even when both Rooney and RVP were fit. Not only that, but he was the often the first option to play in the AM position the moment Rooney or RVP were out. Under Moyes, Kagawa has had a hard time starting regardless of injuries. And he's far from being the first choice in the AM position, even with both Rooney and RVP out.
4. Under Fergie, it was a rarity to see Welbeck play behind the striker when Kagawa was available. Under Moyes, this has slowly become the norm.
5. Under Fergie, we tested out new formations such as the diamond, mainly to fit Kagawa into our side and to compensate for lack of wingers on form. Under Moyes, we've stuck to the flat 4-4-2, despite playing like shit.
6. Under Fergie, we played relatively fluid attacking football with less dependency on width, mainly to make the combination of Rooney, RVP and Kagawa work out. And it did! We didn't lose a single game when these 3 started together, and we won nearly all of them. Under Moyes, we've become more depedent on width than ever(proved by stats), and our attacking football is the worst I've ever seen.
7. Under Fergie we played well. Under Moyes we've been shit. It's pretty well established that Kagawa is a so-called "multiplier" that makes us tick when we play good football. When we play like we do now, he's left standing there, wondering what to do.
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Now, I'm not saying that Kagawa isn't to blame at all. That would be unfair. Of course he ought to do more to leave his mark on the game. Of course he needs to play with more guts. Of course he needs to sort out that insane lack of confidence. But looking at the glaring facts above, it's pretty fecking obvious why he isn't playing well anymore. How can we expect him to play with confidence when he's given only a fraction of the trust he enjoyed under Fergie? He's playing much less, he's behind Welbeck in the AM pecking order, and to top it off Moyes just doesn't seem to think that playing with a playmaker is necessary, neither on the left nor behind the striker. Compared to Fergie and his Kagawa vision, he's taking the exact opposite direction.
While Kagawa is more suited for the likes of Dortmund, Barca, Arsenal etc, I don't believe for a second that he can't adapt to us and play almost equally well. We only have to try and meet him on the half-way, like Fergie did. Moyes fails to see the value of this, and that is partly why we fail.
People need to stop thinking that the current Kagawa is typical "United Kagawa". It's just plain wrong. Last season he was good. This season he's not. And the facts above gives us an idea why.
But why is he having a mediocre season now? Never mind Dortmund and Japan; he was also good for us under Fergie! No, he wasn't brilliant or world class like he was for Dortmund, but he was still good. Significantly better than he is now, anyways. So, what is different this season compared to last? Why is Kagawa so anonymous on the left now, when he's playing with pretty much the same team in the same league? Why isn't he scoring or assisting anymore, when he last season had great stats in this department, almost on par with Hazard for Chelsea? Hmm... Could it be the changes that happened under Moyes?
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Let's look at the huge differences between Kagawa under Fergie and Moyes:
1. Under Fergie, Kagawa started the season by becoming Player Of The Month in August. He also started roughly 5 out of the 6 first PL games, half the time in his favored position if I'm not mistaken. Under Moyes, Kagawa didn't even start the season. He was left out in the cold for more than a month.
2. Under Fergie, Kagawa started roughly 75% of the PL games when he wasn't injured. Under Moyes so far, he's started roughly 35%. It's also worth keeping in mind that Fergie would play Kagawa regardless of form. This is because he was confident in his qualities. And wouldn't you know: it payed off! By the end of the season, Kagawa had become one of our better players, looking sharper each game. Sure, he wasn't nearly as good as he was for Dortmund, but given that he was improving game by game and easily was our best winger, it made perfect sense to continue playing him on the left. Especially considering the fact that switching him to the central position is a powerful weapon.
3. Under Fergie, Kagawa would start even when both Rooney and RVP were fit. Not only that, but he was the often the first option to play in the AM position the moment Rooney or RVP were out. Under Moyes, Kagawa has had a hard time starting regardless of injuries. And he's far from being the first choice in the AM position, even with both Rooney and RVP out.
4. Under Fergie, it was a rarity to see Welbeck play behind the striker when Kagawa was available. Under Moyes, this has slowly become the norm.
5. Under Fergie, we tested out new formations such as the diamond, mainly to fit Kagawa into our side and to compensate for lack of wingers on form. Under Moyes, we've stuck to the flat 4-4-2, despite playing like shit.
6. Under Fergie, we played relatively fluid attacking football with less dependency on width, mainly to make the combination of Rooney, RVP and Kagawa work out. And it did! We didn't lose a single game when these 3 started together, and we won nearly all of them. Under Moyes, we've become more depedent on width than ever(proved by stats), and our attacking football is the worst I've ever seen.
7. Under Fergie we played well. Under Moyes we've been shit. It's pretty well established that Kagawa is a so-called "multiplier" that makes us tick when we play good football. When we play like we do now, he's left standing there, wondering what to do.
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Now, I'm not saying that Kagawa isn't to blame at all. That would be unfair. Of course he ought to do more to leave his mark on the game. Of course he needs to play with more guts. Of course he needs to sort out that insane lack of confidence. But looking at the glaring facts above, it's pretty fecking obvious why he isn't playing well anymore. How can we expect him to play with confidence when he's given only a fraction of the trust he enjoyed under Fergie? He's playing much less, he's behind Welbeck in the AM pecking order, and to top it off Moyes just doesn't seem to think that playing with a playmaker is necessary, neither on the left nor behind the striker. Compared to Fergie and his Kagawa vision, he's taking the exact opposite direction.
While Kagawa is more suited for the likes of Dortmund, Barca, Arsenal etc, I don't believe for a second that he can't adapt to us and play almost equally well. We only have to try and meet him on the half-way, like Fergie did. Moyes fails to see the value of this, and that is partly why we fail.
People need to stop thinking that the current Kagawa is typical "United Kagawa". It's just plain wrong. Last season he was good. This season he's not. And the facts above gives us an idea why.
He's a nothing player. He plays every game like it's a practice match. When we don't have the ball he just pointlessly floats around, trying to give the impression that he's a hard worker, when in reality he's not putting any pressure on the opposition and is actually very lazy. When we do have the ball he isn't much better: his passing can be great one minute, but hopeless the next. Everyone says that he is a "multiplier", but I see far more moves break down when he's in possession than chances created (he either under-hits a pass, fails to execute a Hollywood through ball or just gets nudged off the ball, I'm also presuming he can't shoot as he cowers when he's in a good position). This has been the case in every position he has played; people see him perform well for 20 minutes and try to say that their was some big tactical change during that finite period of time that allowed him to play his game, but the reality is that he hasn't been good enough full stop. He gets defended so much because he is a highlights reel player, he'll do a lovely pirouette to get out of a tight spot or play a beautiful one-two once or twice a game and then go missing for 30 minutes and some remember the 5 seconds of beauty, rather than the 30 minutes of anonymity.
The last person that I saw so many excuses for was Berbatov (another player who was defended because he could pluck a 50 yard hoof out of the air majestically, but would then disappear for the remainder of the game) and a team like United couldn't carry Berbatov and can't carry Kagawa. No doubt some people will try to blame Moyes, but he was mediocre under Ferguson.
The last person that I saw so many excuses for was Berbatov (another player who was defended because he could pluck a 50 yard hoof out of the air majestically, but would then disappear for the remainder of the game) and a team like United couldn't carry Berbatov and can't carry Kagawa. No doubt some people will try to blame Moyes, but he was mediocre under Ferguson.
It's not going to work for him. He's not the sort of player that can fit in our tumescent, aimless build up play and unfortunately he's not good enough to shine despite the system. He'd be a very good player for a good footballing team (like we saw he could be at Dortmund) but he's not got the sheer talent or force of will to overcome our bollocks football that hinders that type of player. He's not a winger, so he won't impress from the wing and when he comes inside he's:
A) doing his fecking job wrong because whatever position he would prefer to play he's been deployed on the wing so that's where he should play
B) stuck trying to play 1-2s and quick, creative plays with a squad of players who stare blankly at him, receive the ball, pirouette a few times then play it back to Evans
It's a shame because had we brought in one or two other capable, footballing players (not that fecking giant microphone) and changed our system up a bit Kagawa could have become a very good player for us. All this about using him as a make-weight in a transfer for one of Dortmund's more traditional centre mids is silly because while we clearly need a player like that, if we get one we can start to use Kagawa properly. If there's no intention to start playing proper football we might as well sell him but any improvement to the footballing capability of the team would probably allow Kagawa to play a bit more like his old self.
A) doing his fecking job wrong because whatever position he would prefer to play he's been deployed on the wing so that's where he should play
B) stuck trying to play 1-2s and quick, creative plays with a squad of players who stare blankly at him, receive the ball, pirouette a few times then play it back to Evans
It's a shame because had we brought in one or two other capable, footballing players (not that fecking giant microphone) and changed our system up a bit Kagawa could have become a very good player for us. All this about using him as a make-weight in a transfer for one of Dortmund's more traditional centre mids is silly because while we clearly need a player like that, if we get one we can start to use Kagawa properly. If there's no intention to start playing proper football we might as well sell him but any improvement to the footballing capability of the team would probably allow Kagawa to play a bit more like his old self.
He's a very good player and you can see why Fergie wanted to bring him in. He could have been the link to make us a better team.
Let's be honest, in this team he's wasted and Moyes' old school tactic and style of play just dont suit him. Shame really
Let's be honest, in this team he's wasted and Moyes' old school tactic and style of play just dont suit him. Shame really
He's a brilliant player in the right set up. But then again, name me a player who's been consistantly good over the last 18 months. No one, and that's shocking.
He's been shockingly bad this season.
Throw out whatever reasons you like but he's doing nothing other than making up the numbers.
Probably a little harsh to single him out from yesterday, but overall he's failing quit drastically at Utd.
Throw out whatever reasons you like but he's doing nothing other than making up the numbers.
Probably a little harsh to single him out from yesterday, but overall he's failing quit drastically at Utd.
Yeah, it is starting to feel a bit like the Berbatov situation. Though for all of the criticism Berbatov got he contributed far more than Kayawa has thus far.
I think you're putting too much blame on the manager and not enough on the player by saying that. It seems clear to me he's not overly suited to the PL in general, more than anything, yesterday he looked unable to cope with the pace and aggression of Swansea, it'd also explain why he's been comfortably better for us in Europe this season too.
Frankly, a Utd player should be able to be versatile, they're not always going to play exactly where they want all the time, that's just how it is. Playing players like Januzaj, Jones, Rooney, Welbeck out of position never stopped them, did it? he should be making the most of the chances he gets on the left, and by doing so, then get his games in the middle. The club shouldn't just automatically put him in his favoured position despite the fact that we've other players playing better than him there. Where's the justice in that?
I think Kagawa's a great player when he has everything tailor made in the team to suit him and when the pace of the game suits him, but neither of those things will ever be the case at Utd and in the PL and that's just how it is.
Yeah Veron springs to mind too, but again Veron probably contributed more and all.
Idont want have a go at anybody...but do you guys remeber the Ozil gossips....nah, we have Rooney and Kagawa playing in the hole
Makes me chuckle now.
Makes me chuckle now.
What exactly would Ozil have fixed, for £42.5m, no less? Do pray tell.
Oh, and Kagawa wasn't a factor in most peoples minds, it was the fact that we have Rooney and RvP up top.
I have to say I rarely saw him play for Dortmund (maybe 3 CL games) so have absolutely no idea how good he really was. From watching him consistently I haven't seen anything to suggest he's brilliant.
For all I know he had 12-18 months where he played at a level which was far above what he is normally capable of (think Nani or Valencia) and that he isn't actually that brilliant at all. A lot of people are saying he's brilliant based on one full really good season in his entire career. It could be that the season in Dortmund was the exception.
Ok, I'm actually getting a little bored of you comparing him to Hazard, mainly for the fact that you are hopelessly wrong on this point:
Hazard- 2012-13 season:
Premier League- 34 games, 9 goals, 14 assists
Champions league- 6, 0, 3
Europa league- 7, 1, 2
League cup- 5, 2, 2
FA cup- 6, 1, 2
=58 games, 13 goals (0.22 per game) and 23 assists (.40 per game)
Kagawa- 2012-13 season:
Premier league- 20 games, 6 goals, 4 assists
Champions league- 3, 0, 2
FA cup- 3, 0, 0
=26 games, 6 goals and 6 assists (.23 per game)
His stats aren't the same. Even if you double Kagawa's stats he is about 15 G+A off Hazard, who did in fairness have a lot more games. He had a far superior season and was the better player, please stop using his statistics as comparison. It's like saying RvP has the same stats as Suarez this season; he clearly doesn't.
At club level it wasn't a full season actually. He had 6 surprisingly great months for a young unknown player new to the league, country, continent, then he was injured for 6 months, then he needed half a season to get back to his best and was very underwhelming before he was truely outstanding for half a season in which Dortmund was already out of all European competitions, so we're talking about 20 games here.
I haven't seen a lot of him for Japan, but he supposedly looked great for them throughout the last 2 years, whatever that means.
I agree that he should be doing much better and show his true quality. But with the system we currently have, I doubt any player of similar ilk could blossom. In fact, there is no player who was consistantly brilliant for us so far with the exception of Rooney maybe. And that's where the manager comes into play and where Moyes has done a poor job.
He was a much better player when he wasn't being picked.
Still I'd rather have him in the side then some others...
Still I'd rather have him in the side then some others...
At the moment Kagawa would fetch a good transfer fee, based on his Dortmund form. The further into the past that form becomes then the lower any future fee will be.
So we have two choices, keep him as part of a rebuilt team that will suit him, or sell him now whilst we can still get a big fee. If that re-shaping of the team starts seriously this January then fair enough, but otherwise I would sell him, this window if possible. We need to spend, and the money's got to come from somewhere.
So we have two choices, keep him as part of a rebuilt team that will suit him, or sell him now whilst we can still get a big fee. If that re-shaping of the team starts seriously this January then fair enough, but otherwise I would sell him, this window if possible. We need to spend, and the money's got to come from somewhere.
I expect a lot more from him given his abilities
No matter how its dressed up, he's simply not good enough for us at the moment.
Its nice to see fans defending one of players for a change but He had as much freedom centrally yesterday as hes ever going to get. I think that excuse can be dismissed now as well.
No matter how its dressed up, he's simply not good enough for us at the moment.
Its nice to see fans defending one of players for a change but He had as much freedom centrally yesterday as hes ever going to get. I think that excuse can be dismissed now as well.
Breaking my rule for the third time because I don't like being called a liar.
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1. I've never said that their stats are the same. I've said that Kagawa's stats are almost on par with Hazard's.
2. Minutes per goal/assist is a far more reliable stat than goals/assists per game.
3. Seperating goals and assists is pointless when comparing wingers/AMs. Both stats are equally important for these players.
4. Including a bunch of tournaments that Kagawa didn't even take part in, is unfair(League Cup and Europa Cup).
5. Generally, using anything else than the domestic league and the Champions League is hopeless, seeing as one of the teams could get lucky and face team from a lower division and score a brace.
So, if we go by goals/assists per minutes played in the CL and PL, then these are the results:
Hazard: 118 min
Kagawa: 125 min
That's pretty fecking close if you ask me. And even if you add the FA cup, the distance between the two is not much more than 15-20 minutes. That's nothing, if we also take into consideration that Hazard has several penalty goals. In fact, if only 2 of Hazard's goals were penalties and we remove them, then Kagawa's stats in the PL and CL are better.
That sounds pretty stupid to be honest. One could easily be used as a squad player and only be played in the signficantly easier matches while the other one played against the strongest teams in the league and was rested for games in Europe against the weaker teams. Stats from the group stages of the CL are pretty useless anyway, because the quality of the teams differs so much between the groups. Your selection of games doesn't make sense at all.
If his stats are genuinely comparable with Hazard it tells us 2 things
1. There's a remote possibility that Hazard is slightly overrated
2. Stats on their own are useless
I hope he comes good but it's hardly a controversial call to say he's been shite for Utd.
1. There's a remote possibility that Hazard is slightly overrated
2. Stats on their own are useless
I hope he comes good but it's hardly a controversial call to say he's been shite for Utd.
Yes, when you amend the stats to your preference, then you have a much larger chance of improving them to make them look favourable in your argument. I can do the same and add the minutes of extra competitions for each player to make it:
Hazard: 125 minutes
Kagawa:140 minutes
That's the thing with stats: they can be manipulated in any way to back up your point. You ask any neutral fan whether these two had similar stats and they would laugh in your face, because the simple truth is Kagawa wasn't even close, goals+assists to minutes or by games.
Hazard: 125 minutes
Kagawa:140 minutes
That's the thing with stats: they can be manipulated in any way to back up your point. You ask any neutral fan whether these two had similar stats and they would laugh in your face, because the simple truth is Kagawa wasn't even close, goals+assists to minutes or by games.
I think you chased the wrong part of the post.
Ozil would have fixed nothing. It's just Kagawa was mentioned to be a player in direct competiton with Ozil.
Which he was, and is, so what's your point, especially if you just agreed that Ozil would've fixed nothing in our team, or been of any benefit? How is that then some victory against those who claimed we didn't need Ozil because we already have a number of players, including Kagawa in that position?
He's amazing for Japan, there's no ifs or buts about it.
Stats on their own are useles.
Thanks for the correction.
Again it would suggest that his great form could be the exception to the rule, rather than his current poor form.
He's too inflexible. He seems to need everyone playing a particular way for him to shine. It's fine if a particular kind of football suits you but a top player has to be able to have an impact in other systems too even if it's a lesser impact. Also, I don't get why he's so ball less and passive. He should be trying to do everything possible to prove himself.
I thought he was pretty good yesterday. Still looks like he's getting back to fitness and match sharpness but there were sone positive signs.
Kagawa was dominant in the J-League from his late teens until he was picked up by Dortmund at age 21. In his first season in Dortmund he made 'Bundesliga Team Of The Year' despite being injured for the second half of the season. In his second season he was even better, and easily one of(if not the best) Dortmund players overall. In his first season for us he was also good. There were only 3 midfielders/wingers/strikers that did better than Kagawa; RVP, Carrick and Rooney(barely). Meanwhile, he's been one of the key players for Japan for the past 3 and half years, being the stand out player in the Asian Cup, winning Asian POTY 2012, and generally playing well against even the strongest national teams in the world.
But yeah, these 5 competitive months under Moyes where he has played less than 500 minutes in the PL, is surely "standard Kagawa". This is his actual level. All that other stuff was just short spells and/or luck
Or, maybe he's just not working out under Moyes so far? Nah, it can't be that!
But yeah, these 5 competitive months under Moyes where he has played less than 500 minutes in the PL, is surely "standard Kagawa". This is his actual level. All that other stuff was just short spells and/or luck
Or, maybe he's just not working out under Moyes so far? Nah, it can't be that!
But yeah, these 5 competitive months under Moyes where he has played less than 500 minutes in the PL, is surely "standard Kagawa". This is his actual level. All that other stuff was just short spells and/or luck
Who said those exact words
He needs a more dynamic midfield to work with and not the tediously average deadwood we work with who usually just ping it to Valencia, who then prays that one of his 4000 poorly hit crosses each game reach their target. He's also more suited for a manager that applies a certain flair to his team, Moyes is not that manger.
But yeah, these 5 competitive months under Moyes where he has played less than 500 minutes in the PL, is surely "standard Kagawa". This is his actual level. All that other stuff was just short spells and/or luck
Or, maybe he's just not working out under Moyes so far? Nah, it can't be that!
Do you even read threads relating to Kagawa or do you just formulate an argument then post it regardless of whether or not it's applicable to the thread?
Another one that's seriously under-performing this season. Had high hopes for him but doubt we'll ever see anything near his best at this club.
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