Why did Moyes get rid of our backroom team in favour of Evertons?

[RedRover]

Wake up and smell the coffee... the man's out of his depth, and the sooner we get rid of him the easier we mitigate the damage

If he can't show changes that he's trying to fix our predicament after 6 mths in charge (and 10 years playing against us), what makes you think he can do more than just steady the ship if given 5 years?

He hasnt had the opportunity to prove whether he is, or isnt "out of his depth".

The squad is bang average - other than Rooney and RVP, both of whom have been missing for large chunks of the season so far. You can make baseless allegations about him being able to sign whatever player, but you dont know the facts. What is clear is that he identified players who he believed would make the team better, and deal with deficiences, especially in midfield. The club did not go and get those players for whatever reason. I dont see how the blame can be laid at his door for the shambolic transfer window.

This is the most difficult job in football - and you are an example of why. Because despite the reality of the situation, fans expect him to be instantly succesful. He has Fergie attending every match looking over his shoulder - for what reason I dont know, and TV pundits and the press talking about the impossible job he has. He's under massive pressure to be Fergie mark II - an impossible standard.

Fergie worked miracles last year, and stood down when he saw that the writing was on the wall in terms of this particular squad - Moyes clearly isnt able to do that as it stands, but I dont see that its reason to sack him.

The names of the best managers get bandied about on here as if they're miracle workers. They are not - they largely have very good squads including numerous top class players.

This squad has had one player like that bought in recent memory - being RVP. How anyone can expect a club to keep pace in modern football without investment in players year on year - all the top sides do it - seemingly except us. Even Barca and Bayern spend on players despite having an embarrasment of riches. Fergie didnt do that for years, and Woodward cocked up in the summer.

I dont agree with what you're saying - basically that he should be sacked. He has had no opportunity to put his stamp on the team, nor put together "his" side, nor even bring in a couple of the players he badly needs to replace ageing or average players he has to rely on as it stands.

Some people would do well to remember that Fergie was given time - a huge amount of time compared to todays standards, before he got the club to where it needed to be. Clearly it shouldnt take that long this time around - but it will take longer than 6 months and one transfer window.

 

[Escobar]

I disagree, the squad is well above average. Last season, we won the League and did very well in the CL

 

[afrocentricity]

Why are so many people so keen to shift all blame to the players and absolve Moyes? The same professionals that have given us so much glory. I'm not part of the Moyes out brigade but what has he done to have some of you blindly supporting nearly everything he's done? Just seems like a position that suits some of you rather than a position you've arrived at by actually looking at things that have happened... the players are under-performing, so none of that's Moyes problem?

Anyway, I'd love to know how much of the caf think a compromise would have led to a smoother transition, and how many people think he was right to replace the backroom staff. Don't suppose the mods would be interested in attaching a poll? It's kinda hard to gauge the consensus... feels like I'm in a minority. Which is fair enough...

 

[Gladiator]

You seem to be suggesting that Moyes should take his lead from other, junior coaches in terms of training - none of whom have managed at any level. If that was required then what is the point in appointing Moyes in the first place? He will have his own ideas and way to do things, hence why he's a PL manager and the others in question aren't.

Unfortunately, it was always going to be "Revolution" not "Evolution" when Fergie retired in terms of the club moving on and entering a new era because that's how high profile managers work. They dont want to go into a club and be surrounded by people loyal to the old manager and face the inevitable - "Fergie doesnt do it like that..." day after day.

It may be different at a club where people are promoted internally, or where the set up is different with Directors of Football whan a manager is brought in purely to coach, but that's not the case here.

People are putting too much significance on the coaching and staff changes. The players are professionals - and supposed to be at the top of their tree. They are the ones underperforming, and if that's because things have "changed a bit", or it isnt like it was before then they need to take a long look at themselves.

If they cant do that perhaps they need to move on. Fergie always advocated this approach - that the Manager is the main man and that nobody is bigger than him. Infact, that's the legacy he's left at United.

But I'm sure you will admit things haven really changed "a bit"...we've lost a manager and coaching staff the players trust. I'm sure they're trying to implement Moyes' methods and it's just not working out at the moment. You're acting like coaching and staff changes werent that significant. I think in some ways, it's showing they are.

To blame the players like this seems a bit rich to me. You're acting like you know the effect the changes should have on the players more than the players themselves. They're professionals yes. But they're also human and when it comes to trust, that's something usually has to be earned. These players would run through walls for Fergie. What has Moyes done to deserve that same respect?

 

[Gladiator]

I shake my head at how hard some of our fans try to absolve Moyes of blame. The players, manager, staff all should be taking responsibility. Singularly scapegoating doesnt make any sense. Can't people realise this is a multi-dimensional issue we are seeing unfold? How that can lay at one person's feet only is beyond me.

 

[Revan]

Why are so many people so keen to shift all blame to the players and absolve Moyes? The same professionals that have given us so much glory. I'm not part of the Moyes out brigade but what has he done to have some of you blindly supporting nearly everything he's done? Just seems like a position that suits some of you rather than a position you've arrived at by actually looking at things that have happened... the players are under-performing, so none of that's Moyes problem?

Anyway, I'd love to know how much of the caf think a compromise would have led to a smoother transition, and how many people think he was right to replace the backroom staff. Don't suppose the mods would be interested in attaching a poll? It's kinda hard to gauge the consensus... feels like I'm in a minority. Which is fair enough...

For the first part, the answer is Fergie. 'Stick with the manager, blah blah blah'. The only way to defend Moyes right now is to shift the blame to players. People think that criticizing Moyes is in some way disloyance to Fergie.

I wouldn't have any problem if the coaches were replaced with good coaches. But I don't have anything to led me believe that the new coaches are anything good. Everton was an extremely boring side for the majority of last 10 years and there were the same coaches. They aren't winners too. And don't have any experience on this level. So while a Pep, Klopp or Mourinho replacing the staff wouldn't be a big deal, on Moyes case though I am not sure that it was the right decision.

 

[LR7]

Why are so many people so keen to shift all blame to the players and absolve Moyes? The same professionals that have given us so much glory. I'm not part of the Moyes out brigade but what has he done to have some of you blindly supporting nearly everything he's done? Just seems like a position that suits some of you rather than a position you've arrived at by actually looking at things that have happened... the players are under-performing, so none of that's Moyes problem?

Anyway, I'd love to know how much of the caf think a compromise would have led to a smoother transition, and how many people think he was right to replace the backroom staff. Don't suppose the mods would be interested in attaching a poll? It's kinda hard to gauge the consensus... feels like I'm in a minority. Which is fair enough...

Because apparently the players have magically all become shit in the last 6 months and all need replacing. If they were playing to their full potential but we still weren't winning then people may have a point, but they aren't. They are playing with little belief and look to be lacking ideas.

 

[Amir]

I wouldn't have any problem if the coaches were replaced with good coaches. But I don't have anything to led me believe that the new coaches are anything good. Everton was an extremely boring side for the majority of last 10 years and there were the same coaches. .

With Moyes being more hands on when it comes to every day training, keeping the old staff wouldn't have changed anything. It would still be his way of doing things.

 

[Enigma_87]

The squad is bang average - other than Rooney and RVP, both of whom have been missing for large chunks of the season so far.

Rooney has missed 4 games. Granted Persie more.

DDG, Jones, Evans, Ferdinand, Evra, Smalling, Vidic - give me a better back 5 in terms of depth and quality in the league at the moment(excluding Rafael as he has been injured most of the time).

CM - Carrick, granted there we lack quality. Wings we have upcoming Januzaj, Valencia, Nani, Zaha (who has hardly being given a chance regardless of how shit Young is). We also have Kagawa, Chicharito, Welbeck in attack.

Bar City and Chelsea is there anyone with better squad than us?

And even Chelsea need some reinforcement in central defence and attack.

 

[Hellboy]

Jimmy Lumsden and Steve Round are hardly household names. If I was a multiple PL winner, I wouldn't be impressed. Maybe that is exactly what happened with the players, going from a world class coach like Meulensteen (whom RVP talked a lot about) to nobodies like them.

 

[Ash_G]

Nothing wrong with him bringing his own people. People can rave about Rene but Moyes said he asked him to stay but his role would change as Moyes is more hands on in training, being younger than Fergie was. We'll see how Rene does as Fulham given he's pretty much portrayed himself as our manager these last few years recently.

I don't think there's any issues with players listening to coaches. For the top players it's not like P.Nev is gonna be telling them how to play, they already know what they need to know, it will just be about practise, new plans and fitness with them. For a younger player no reason you wouldn't listen to him or any of our coaches bar attitude problems.

End of the day though from the looks of it Moyes and his coaches seem to be failing to inspire the players and get them playing well and despite all this talk of fitness based training it hardly seems to be paying off on the pitch.

 

[RedRover]

But I'm sure you will admit things haven really changed "a bit"...we've lost a manager and coaching staff the players trust. I'm sure they're trying to implement Moyes' methods and it's just not working out at the moment. You're acting like coaching and staff changes werent that significant. I think in some ways, it's showing they are.

To blame the players like this seems a bit rich to me. You're acting like you know the effect the changes should have on the players more than the players themselves. They're professionals yes. But they're also human and when it comes to trust, that's something usually has to be earned. These players would run through walls for Fergie. What has Moyes done to deserve that same respect?

They still turn up to training every day at the same place and are surrounded by the same teammates and alot of the staff. They may know some of the new staff as well, or at least should do so by now. And even if things are different, they should be able to deal with that - being player supposedly good enough to represent the club and earn millions of pounds for doing so.

People up and down the land deal with the same situation at work everyday, and of course performance may be affected short term, but it seems here that people desperately looking for a reason for the drop in form seem to think its down to Mike Phelan, or whomever being missing, or training being different.

There is nothing to suggest that there are any problems with Moyes and how he handles training, and it seemed to work at Everton, so while the change will obviously have an effect the club needs to have players who are strong enough characters to deal with that. You accuse me of speculating, but others are doing the same - seemingly trying lay the blame for current form at anyone's door other than the players, who whilst not toally to blame are not immune from criticism.

I'm sure Pellegrini has made changes at City - and training wont be the same as Mancini, but the players dont seem to have any issue with it - its a fact at football clubs that things change when a new gaffer coomes in, and if players dont like it, they know where the door is.

The fact is that the sweeping changes were always going to happen when Fergie went. Mulensteen is now a PL manager in hsi won right, so whether he would have stayed is doubtful. The impact that Mike Phelan had is debatable, but the fact that nobody has snapped him up tells you a lot in my opinion.

This happens at every club when a new gaffer comes in. They dpont want the spectre of the old manager about and wantv their own people around them as it helps them settle in and transplant what they had elsewhere to the new club - this is surely especially the case when trying to follow a man who's built the club from the ground up.

 

[afrocentricity]

I've seen posts saying clear all the players out, now why the actual fcuk would we want to do that? In what alternate reality would that improve the situation? Ignore the fact that we swapped out our backroom staff for less experienced people and the manager & CEO are new and a bit green... how could that be a problem? No... it's the players, gotta be.

 

[afrocentricity]

Nothing wrong with him bringing his own people...

On this point, my bone of contention is more to do with replacing experience with inexperience, could they not have had a compromise? I don't mind him bringing his people in but he didn't really need to change so much so quickly did he?

SAF advised against it. It's not me pining for the status quo... it just makes sense.

 

[Ash_G]

On this point, my bone of contention is more to do with replacing experience with inexperience, could they not have had a compromise? I don't mind him bringing his people in but he didn't really need to change so much so quickly did he?

SAF advised against it. It's not me pining for the status quo... it just makes sense.

I don't know all the changes so can't say in full the main ones I know are AM, GK coach and Rene. I think it was always likely that Moyes would pick his own AM, and there's nothing wrong with that. Round may not be a household name but was McClaren- and he was there for the treble. With the change in GK coach that may have been unneccesary but then you look at what he's done with Howard, I'm sure he's pretty good. Then lastly as I said with Rene, by the sounds of it he'd have had a reduced role simply because Moyes is younger and able to get involved more than Fergie was and he didn't want that.

 

[Skywarden]

I've seen posts saying clear all the players out, now why the actual fcuk would we want to do that? In what alternate reality would that improve the situation? Ignore the fact that we swapped out our backroom staff for less experienced people and the manager & CEO are new and a bit green... how could that be a problem? No... it's the players, gotta be.

Surely they are speaking metaphorically. That is: "No-one is good enough right now" rather than "get rid of them all".

 

[Varun]

Much ado about nothing.

Rene- He was in charge of training and with Moyes conducting it himself, a change of role was inevitable. Moyes gave him another role but he wanted to move. Fair fecks to him, not Moyes's fault.

AM- No surprise at all that the new manager brought his own assistant. Most managers would have done the same.

GK coach- Only one that is contentious as Steele was very good.

 

[Gladiator]

They still turn up to training every day at the same place and are surrounded by the same teammates and alot of the staff. They may know some of the new staff as well, or at least should do so by now. And even if things are different, they should be able to deal with that - being player supposedly good enough to represent the club and earn millions of pounds for doing so.

People up and down the land deal with the same situation at work everyday, and of course performance may be affected short term, but it seems here that people desperately looking for a reason for the drop in form seem to think its down to Mike Phelan, or whomever being missing, or training being different.

There is nothing to suggest that there are any problems with Moyes and how he handles training, and it seemed to work at Everton, so while the change will obviously have an effect the club needs to have players who are strong enough characters to deal with that. You accuse me of speculating, but others are doing the same - seemingly trying lay the blame for current form at anyone's door other than the players, who whilst not toally to blame are not immune from criticism.

I'm sure Pellegrini has made changes at City - and training wont be the same as Mancini, but the players dont seem to have any issue with it - its a fact at football clubs that things change when a new gaffer coomes in, and if players dont like it, they know where the door is.

The fact is that the sweeping changes were always going to happen when Fergie went. Mulensteen is now a PL manager in hsi won right, so whether he would have stayed is doubtful. The impact that Mike Phelan had is debatable, but the fact that nobody has snapped him up tells you a lot in my opinion.

This happens at every club when a new gaffer comes in. They dpont want the spectre of the old manager about and wantv their own people around them as it helps them settle in and transplant what they had elsewhere to the new club - this is surely especially the case when trying to follow a man who's built the club from the ground up.

Isn't this speculation? At every club? If so why didnt pep do that then? He only brought one person with him.

Performance may be affected in the short term as well as the long term. The way I see it, when an inspirational figure leaves an organisation, it does take some time to recover from the situation unless the successor can inspire in a different way which stems the blow. How can we seriously assess if the characters are strong enough though? I'm not willing to go into that. These players obviously showed at one point they had some character to them and on the same token I'm not sure character is the main issue with our players. If you ask me, it's confidence.

We know that Moyes' training sessions focus on more running than ball work. Depending on how you feel about this, it may or may not be an issue to you. If it is, then it does suggest there are problems. Also people will look at how we've handled RvP as a suggestion that there are problems.

I dont think it's a case of a manager changing things and the players not liking it. More so, it's the fact that we're not getting the desired results for whatever reason and it's having an effect on everyone. The players arent used to this position. They are trying to get themselves out of it but I dont think more effort will mean we will. You can put more effort into a failing strategy and still fail

 

[RedRover]

Rooney has missed 4 games. Granted Persie more.

DDG, Jones, Evans, Ferdinand, Evra, Smalling, Vidic - give me a better back 5 in terms of depth and quality in the league at the moment(excluding Rafael as he has been injured most of the time).

CM - Carrick, granted there we lack quality. Wings we have upcoming Januzaj, Valencia, Nani, Zaha (who has hardly being given a chance regardless of how shit Young is). We also have Kagawa, Chicharito, Welbeck in attack.

Bar City and Chelsea is there anyone with better squad than us?

And even Chelsea need some reinforcement in central defence and attack.

I disagree. I think Arsenal and Spurs have better stregth in depth in certain areas - particularly in central midfield. Out wide Januzaj has been excellent but the others average at Best - Nani looks lost, Young out of his depth. Valencia has done alright I suppose but hasnt hit the heights for a season and a half.

That for me sums it up. The back 4, has little protection and the forwards are getting little to no service. Hence the results.

With Rooney and RVP fit and firing we're a very good side. Without there is little spark. City can lose a player and bring in a good enough replacement - likewise Chelsea, other than upfront - an issue they will surely address.

 

[afrocentricity]

Surely they are speaking metaphorically. That is: "No-one is good enough right now" rather than "get rid of them all".

Yeah it's hyperbole (I hope), caftards tend to go overboard with stuff like that but there are some posters where you have to wonder... I just found it strange.

 

[RedRover]

Isn't this speculation? At every club? If so why didnt pep do that then? He only brought one person with him.

Performance may be affected in the short term as well as the long term. The way I see it, when an inspirational figure leaves an organisation, it does take some time to recover from the situation unless the successor can inspire in a different way which stems the blow. How can we seriously assess if the characters are strong enough though? I'm not willing to go into that. These players obviously showed at one point they had some character to them and on the same token I'm not sure character is the main issue with our players. If you ask me, it's confidence.

We know that Moyes' training sessions focus on more running than ball work. Depending on how you feel about this, it may or may not be an issue to you. If it is, then it does suggest there are problems. Also people will look at how we've handled RvP as a suggestion that there are problems.

I dont think it's a case of a manager changing things and the players not liking it. More so, it's the fact that we're not getting the desired results for whatever reason and it's having an effect on everyone. The players arent used to this position. They are trying to get themselves out of it but I dont think more effort will mean we will. You can put more effort into a failing strategy and still fail

Pretty much everytime a manager moves on, the new takes his back room team with him. Assistants follow managers around and have done for years. They often come as a package - its how football works. Look at the English lad who is assitant to Ancellotti - folliwing him from Chelsea to PSG to Madrid.

People, not just football managers, like to work with people they know and trust, it is that simple.

You might think it would have been wise to offer the job to whomever and tell them that they can't bring their own staff. I would imagine that very few managers would want to work within someone else's regime, or would accept that.

Do we know he prefers running over anything else?

Regardless, what your suggesting that maybe Moyes isnt as good a coach as Rene Mulensteen, or the previous regime. That may very well prove to be the case long term, and if so he wasnt the right man for the job. But I dont think you can say that after 6 months. But you would imagine that the club checked out what he was like on the training pitch, spoke to people in the know and considered this when they made their decision.

If he had been able to stregthen areas that clearly need to be stregthened and things were not going well, I'd be more inclined to agree that perhaps this has caused issues. But he hasnt so I reserve judgment.

 

[Isotope]

Still doesn't explain why Everton and Liverpool, who have more average players than United, are sitting above us. Maybe..., just maybe, it's not the players to blame for our current position.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

The thing about ex players becoming coaches for us. Butt, Scholes work or have worked with the kids. Fletch helped with the U21's when he was out. The best coach from that ilk was OGS, who also worked with the then reserves/now U-21's. That seems to be the usual route into coaching for our ex players, also Brian McClair and Clayton Blackmore. It seem really strange to throw Phil Neville and Ryan Giggs straight in as first team coaches with no prior experience lower down the club.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Pretty much everytime a manager moves on, the new takes his back room team with him. Assistants follow managers around and have done for years. They often come as a package - its how football works. Look at the English lad who is assitant to Ancellotti - folliwing him from Chelsea to PSG to Madrid.

People, not just football managers, like to work with people they know and trust, it is that simple.

You might think it would have been wise to offer the job to whomever and tell them that they can't bring their own staff. I would imagine that very few managers would want to work within someone else's regime, or would accept that.

Do we know he prefers running over anything else?

Regardless, what your suggesting that maybe Moyes isnt as good a coach as Rene Mulensteen, or the previous regime. That may very well prove to be the case long term, and if so he wasnt the right man for the job. But I dont think you can say that after 6 months. But you would imagine that the club checked out what he was like on the training pitch, spoke to people in the know and considered this when they made their decision.

If he had been able to stregthen areas that clearly need to be stregthened and things were not going well, I'd be more inclined to agree that perhaps this has caused issues. But he hasnt so I reserve judgment.

Until someone leaves the club or retires, we probably won't know.

 

[Gladiator]

Pretty much everytime a manager moves on, the new takes his back room team with him. Assistants follow managers around and have done for years. They often come as a package - its how football works. Look at the English lad who is assitant to Ancellotti - folliwing him from Chelsea to PSG to Madrid.

People, not just football managers, like to work with people they know and trust, it is that simple.

You might think it would have been wise to offer the job to whomever and tell them that they can't bring their own staff. I would imagine that very few managers would want to work within someone else's regime, or would accept that.

Do we know he prefers running over anything else?

Regardless, what your suggesting that maybe Moyes isnt as good a coach as Rene Mulensteen, or the previous regime. That may very well prove to be the case long term, and if so he wasnt the right man for the job. But I dont think you can say that after 6 months. But you would imagine that the club checked out what he was like on the training pitch, spoke to people in the know and considered this when they made their decision.

If he had been able to stregthen areas that clearly need to be stregthened and things were not going well, I'd be more inclined to agree that perhaps this has caused issues. But he hasnt so I reserve judgment.

But it's not always the case that a manager always bring his back room team. Sometimes he chooses to work with what he's got.

Does wanting to work with people you know and trust justify bringing in coaches less experienced than the ones Fergie left behind? Even though I feel it was the wrong decision, not saying it inherently is as you've stated.

I'm willing to give Moyes until next January. There can be no more excuses after that. None.

To the bolded parts, but other managers have and will continue to do so. Just because they would like to bring their own backroom staff doesnt mean they will. Therefore, it's not always the case that when a new manager arrives, he brings his own backroom team. What happens in general doesnt necessarily justify what has happened this summer. That's my point.


I think that all went out the window when SAF told him he was new manager and he told everyone to back him. Think Moyes has got the liberty to make his own decisions once he stepped in.


On the running bit, I said the players and others have said there is more running than before. Nothing more.

 

[afrocentricity]

SAF specifically advised him to keep them on, he decided to reject that advice... rightly or wrongly. What usually happens elsewhere is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

You had the United perspective - the manager saying, 'Keep what we've got, keep the continuity, work with them and they'll guide you through. You're taking on a massive machine here. You've gone from Marks and Spencer's to Harrods.'

Someone posted earlier that they feel he did it because it strengthens his position, and he'll have a easier ride in-house. Who knows? but I can believe that...

 

[mic.m]

Because he's an idiot. It would have made sense if the backroom staff he was bringing included some highly regarded coaches who would improve the team not his Everton buddies, Phil Neville and Giggs. He underestimated the task at hand and overestimated the quality of his crew. I doubt any new signings will make an impact if he doesn't change the makeup of his staff. The injuries, the uninspiring performances show that something is wrong with his methods.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

It was a dumb idea to let go of the entire previous back room staff. He is paying for it now. It not by mistake a man like Mourinho always mixes his back room staff with people who were there at the club before.

 

[Enigma_87]

I disagree. I think Arsenal and Spurs have better stregth in depth in certain areas - particularly in central midfield. Out wide Januzaj has been excellent but the others average at Best - Nani looks lost, Young out of his depth. Valencia has done alright I suppose but hasnt hit the heights for a season and a half.

That for me sums it up. The back 4, has little protection and the forwards are getting little to no service. Hence the results.

With Rooney and RVP fit and firing we're a very good side. Without there is little spark. City can lose a player and bring in a good enough replacement - likewise Chelsea, other than upfront - an issue they will surely address.

Well I think you actually agree, rather than disagree. Of course Arsenal and Spurs have better strength and dept in CM and some may say on the wings, however I don't agree I think in terms of quality and talent we have better options than both Arsenal and Spurs. Apart from CM neither team has better defence, GK or attack than us. They just play better as a unit at the moment, especially Arsenal.

And not like both teams didn't have a fair share of injuries and suspensions so can't see that being an excuse really.

The problem lies with motivation, tactics, will to win if you like. We have the quality but don't seem to be playing like a unit at the moment. It may be due to loss of staff, the new manager etc etc, but certainly you can't expect a title winning side that kept all the team, adding a rejuvenated Rooney and that oaf Fellaini to completely turn to shit in the space of 5 months...

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

The real difference between us and all the teams above us in he league is they all have more than one creative center midfielder. We have none.

 

[Ixion]

If Moyes thinks Felliani is good enough to be a Manchester United midfielder and worth 28 million I imagine he didn't really understand what United's level really is, and he probably made the same mistake with his staff. Good enough for Everton doesn't mean good enough for United, player or staff.

 

[Ash_G]

The real difference between us and all the teams above us in he league is they all have more than one creative center midfielder. We have none.

I dunno, Chelsea's midifeld options are hardly creative, certainly not beyond Lampard, if you include oscar than we have to include rooney. Same with liverpool after Gerrard. Even City don't really have much creativity in cm after Toure. What each other them has though is a midfield that can give their attacking players the base they need and enough defensive protection. Some are more creative than ours, some are more solid than ours. On the whole though City and Arsenal aside I'd say it's more a case of ours under performing and not acting as a unit than being weaker. I definitely for example wouldn't say that Chelsea's cm is better than ours but they do enough and have a good enough attack that it balances out its short comings.

Our midfield is rarely solid, too often one of the midfielders is out wide for some reason and our attacking players aren't doing enough as individuals and as a group. We're just not functioning very well. The lack of solidity in the middle is what I find most frustrating. They should be more solid, there's no reason to allow players to drift there as often as they do. If they would just do that we'd probably be in a much better position. We've also suffered from a couple of players used there, Clev, Fellaini looking very low on confidence during the season.

But if they did play as they should we wouldn't be in this mess. Some of it is clearly players underperforming, but some of it, like for example allowing Clev to wonder is surely failings on the coaching/tactics side, as he definitely can do it if told to.

 

[afrocentricity]

The impact that Mike Phelan had is debatable, but the fact that nobody has snapped him up tells you a lot in my opinion...

What does it tell you? Doesn't tell me anything...

 

[Escobar]

The real difference between us and all the teams above us in he league is they all have more than one creative center midfielder. We have none.

No, that's not the problem. The problem is that the manager (through his training, tactics, line ups, motivation skills etc) is not able to make us play good, successful football

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

No, that's not the problem. The problem is that the manager (through his training, tactics, line ups, motivation skills etc) is not able to make us play good, successful football

You will never convince me that Moyes is the reason Cleverly only passes the ball sideways. Or that his training stops all our attacking midfielders not named Giggs from being capable of doing evenr half of what Schoels could do in a creative sense.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I've found that we look a lot like we did last season.

 

[.Rossi]

You will never convince me that Moyes is the reason Cleverly only passes the ball sideways. Or that his training stops all our attacking midfielders not named Giggs from being capable of doing evenr half of what Schoels could do in a creative sense.

Cleverley is an awfully average footballer, who is not good enough for a club at this level and no manager is going to change that.....

There I said it. Being dying to post that since last year

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I dunno, Chelsea's midifeld options are hardly creative, certainly not beyond Lampard, if you include oscar than we have to include rooney. Same with liverpool after Gerrard. Even City don't really have much creativity in cm after Toure. What each other them has though is a midfield that can give their attacking players the base they need and enough defensive protection. Some are more creative than ours, some are more solid than ours. On the whole though City and Arsenal aside I'd say it's more a case of ours under performing and not acting as a unit than being weaker. I definitely for example wouldn't say that Chelsea's cm is better than ours but they do enough and have a good enough attack that it balances out its short comings.

Chelsea don't play 4-4-2 nor a 4-2-3-1 system with 2 natural strikers so do not need a creative center midfielder. Their creativity is taken care of by their central play maker and his two wide helpers. Liverpool employ a play maker in Coutinho, and Gerrard too can do a similar job from deep.
For us save fora 40 year old we have no one who can create from deep and its hurting us bad.

Our midfield is rarely solid, too often one of the midfielders is out wide for some reason and our attacking players aren't doing enough as individuals and as a group.

I don't buy that at all. A midfield that has one partner who consistently only passes the ball sideways and hardly contributes enough defensively (Cleverely) can never count as solid. Our wide men under perform because most of them a being thrust a responsibility that has never been theirs. Namely being the creative focal point of the team. If we insist on playing Rooney as 10 with a center forward ahead of him, it will never work with a center midfield that can't pass the ball forward or create things consistently from deep. Even if we were able to go out and bag the likes of Reus to play on our wings.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I've found that we look a lot like we did last season.

Difference is Fergie switched to a diamond when the wings failed or played Rooney in midfield for creativity. And he never lost games easily at home as Moyes has been doing..

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

I've found that we look a lot like we did last season.

Yeah, aside from injuries, I'm not really seeing a big difference.