Why did Moyes get rid of our backroom team in favour of Evertons?

The real difference between us and all the teams above us in he league is they all have more than one creative center midfielder. We have none.

I think it goes well beyond that now. More weaknesses have been highlighted...it's just the central midfield issue has lingered on for such a long time.

The wings and the fullback slots (first and second choice LB and second choice RB) are as much of a concern especially because we use these as our primary attacking threats to little or no effect almost every week.

In regards to changing the dynamic of the senior coaches, I have to say I understand why Moyes did it. But I think going for 4(?) Everton guys including the inexperienced Phil Neville may well have been a bit too much. I imagine the old fella Jimmy Lumsden isn't a particularly insightful or innovative coach and is almost here on merit of being with Moyes for a long long time to add a sense of comfort and familiarity rather than first class coaching. It's an assumption on my part but if true, it concerns me.

The transition from the Ferguson to Moyes regime including the team who supplement the manager seems to have lacked real thought into what's best for the club and the team and more so a view as to how David Moyes can settle into the club. Again it's an assumption but other than De Gea taking a liking to Chris Woods I've not heard a single player mention how they love working with Round, Lumsden or Neville whereas over the years the likes of Quieroz and Meulensteen have been lauded for giving players new ideas and confidence. It might simply be teething problems, but the trio mentioned don't come across as top top level coaches.
 
I think Moyes made the right decision to bring in his own people. Sir Alex probably beat it into his head that no man is more important than the manager and he needed people he trusted and were loyal to him. Moyes didn't walk into United with the trust and respect from the players that someone like Mourinho would and he needed people around him to give the perception of a powerful figure like Fergie was. It was a genius to move to give Giggs a coaching role, as it took one of the most respected players in the locker room and had him side with the new manager. If Giggs supports the new manager, then the others should follow suit.

I totally agree with him for bringing in his own staff, I just wish the staff he brought with him weren't so shit with archaic ideas and views on football.
 
I think Moyes made the right decision to bring in his own people. Sir Alex probably beat it into his head that no man is more important than the manager and he needed people he trusted and were loyal to him. Moyes didn't walk into United with the trust and respect from the players that someone like Mourinho would and he needed people around him to give the perception of a powerful figure like Fergie was. It was a genius to move to give Giggs a coaching role, as it took one of the most respected players in the locker room and had him side with the new manager. If Giggs supports the new manager, then the others should follow suit.

I totally agree with him for bringing in his own staff, I just wish the staff he brought with him weren't so shit with archaic ideas and views on football.

It could also be him who has those archaic ideas.
 
I think that Moyes should have created a new coaching team which would be mix of old and new boys.

Ideally, Moyes, Rene, Round and Steele. Add Giggsy and Nevile and you have a brilliant balance of new and old. this would ensure that Moyes is in charge and in fact not much is changed.
 
Chelsea don't play 4-4-2 nor a 4-2-3-1 system with 2 natural strikers so do not need a creative center midfielder. Their creativity is taken care of by their central play maker and his two wide helpers. Liverpool employ a play maker in Coutinho, and Gerrard too can do a similar job from deep.
For us save fora 40 year old we have no one who can create from deep and its hurting us bad.

I don't buy that at all. A midfield that has one partner who consistently only passes the ball sideways and hardly contributes enough defensively (Cleverely) can never count as solid. Our wide men under perform because most of them a being thrust a responsibility that has never been theirs. Namely being the creative focal point of the team. If we insist on playing Rooney as 10 with a center forward ahead of him, it will never work with a center midfield that can't pass the ball forward or create things consistently from deep. Even if we were able to go out and bag the likes of Reus to play on our wings.


As I said with Coutinho/Oscar that's their 3rd man which would be like us including Rooney or Kagawa in their, we have that option, whether we choose to option is another matter. Gerrard can create from deep but then so can Carrick. As I said from their actual deepest players Arsenal/City aside I don't think we're that much worse off (although each team is lacking).
On the last point I think we've seen from Clev in the past say City last season where he can play a disciplined role, I think he played quite solid against Chelsea. I think if he was told to just sit then he would do that, but he seems to be given lisence to go forward which he seems to take him outwide which leaves us with 3 players in the right hand corner usually, valencia, rb and clev and then just one midifelder in the middle. Jones is another, he's got better but previously when he wasn't given a specific tactical role he seemed to end up as an attacking midfielder. I don't see any reason they can't be told to stay central. Neither of them are lazy, they just lack the intelligence to be able to be given more freedom over their movements. Some of it, is of course due to how Valencia plays as I mentioned above, but some of it just seems to be them not being able to deal with some creative license atm.
If you look at chelsea, they typically play mikel/ramires and Lampard. I'd say Carrick offers similar protection to Mikel whilst offering more going forward and then I don't see why Clev/jones should be any less solid than ramires/lampard, but as I said too often they seem to be allowed to drift. Even if you rate Ramires better defensively which would be fair enough, that can be countered by the extra work rate of the likes of Valencia/Rooney.
Lastly I sort of agree with your final point however I don't think there's any problem wanting the wide players to be creative, again using Chelsea as an example their wide players, Hazard/Willian atm are expected to be key creative forces. Our problem from an attacking point of view, aside from the wingers poor form, is that centrally we don't really have a specialist creator ie an Oscar. Carrick is a good base but isn't a true playmaker in the scholes/pirlo mould, few of the other midfielders play good forward passes, and Rooney isn't someone who really creates centrally. He's much happier knocking it wide and he rarely carries the ball through the middle, which I guess is what you're getting at.
As a result our options are limited, we work the wide option well but they usually fail to make the most of it, and centrally we lack the players who can influence there. Even for someone like Kagawa/Januzaj though, even if they might create through the middle better than Rooney would with our current players there's a lack of players who would make runs from out wide for them to really find as they themselves would be the players, with nani most equiped to make those runs and they rarely play together or close enough to be able to link in such a way.
But as I said I see no reason for us to be as open as we are, I think Clev/Jones can be told to sit more when partnering Carrick and then for now we can grind something out and I'm not sure why they're not being told to do that more often. Going forward with our current players I think we can get a better mix of creative options if we can get januzaj and kagawa playing close to each other, Nani as well for me ideally, but I accept Kagawa and Nani need to find their own forms, but given how much consistent time Valencia has had to find his then I think we can give them more time. Certainly I hope next game if Rooney is out we see Kagawa/Januzaj central and the other playing tucked in on one side.
 
Not going to read the entire thread, but:

Mike Phelan was a coach at Stockport County before he joined United in 99. He then advanced at United.

Rene came from Al-Sadd (or something similar) when he joined in 2001.

It's not like our previous coaches were signed as fully evolved persons from the likes of Bayern, Barcelona etc. They probably were promising in some way, and evolved while being at United. There are probably hundreds of great coaches at lower level teams (and other PL teams). Us having coaches from Everton does not bother me the slightest.

I do see the argument concerning lack of consistency when Moyes changed the whole staff. On the other hand that should be limited somewhat by Neville returning and Giggs sticking around.
 
The issue might not be the actual coaching itself so much as the psychological impact it has on the players (and other staff).

No one likes to see their long-time colleagues lose their jobs.
 
Mike Phelan was a coach at Stockport County before he joined United in 99. He then advanced at United.

Rene came from Al-Sadd (or something similar) when he joined in 2001.

It's not like our previous coaches were signed as fully evolved persons from the likes of Bayern, Barcelona etc. They probably were promising in some way, and evolved while being at United. There are probably hundreds of great coaches at lower level teams (and other PL teams). Us having coaches from Everton does not bother me the slightest.

All well and good if we weren't the Premiership champions and hoping to continue that trend. In any walk of life replacing experience with inexperience is a set back. I and some others just think it would have made sense to mitigate that... whereas some people disagree and state that a clean slate was the better idea. Thread summarized for you...

The issue might not be the actual coaching itself so much as the psychological impact it has on the players (and other staff).

No one likes to see their long-time colleagues lose their jobs.

I think a lot of people are ignoring the psychology behind it, motivating and inspiring the team has got to be a whole lot harder. As well as knowing what type of approach to take with any given individual, the sort of thing you get to know after working with and getting to know someone over a prolonged amount time.
 
In my humble opinion, the backroom staff isnt the problem. Nor the psychological effect of the change of it. I'll be concerned about the players if this affected them more than our results and the feelings of 70k fans at OT and millions over the world. Plus, I think they have enough ability to believe in themselves. The main job of the coaches is to keep them fit to realize their potential.
 
Not the sole problem and probably not even the main problem but you cant swap SAF and his staff with Moyes and his staff and not have any issues. Especially if you're one of those that think SAF et all had them playing beyond their capabilities last season... the old 'Average team, World class manager' argument.
 
Isn't this speculation? At every club? If so why didnt pep do that then? He only brought one person with him.

Performance may be affected in the short term as well as the long term. The way I see it, when an inspirational figure leaves an organisation, it does take some time to recover from the situation unless the successor can inspire in a different way which stems the blow. How can we seriously assess if the characters are strong enough though? I'm not willing to go into that. These players obviously showed at one point they had some character to them and on the same token I'm not sure character is the main issue with our players. If you ask me, it's confidence.

We know that Moyes' training sessions focus on more running than ball work. Depending on how you feel about this, it may or may not be an issue to you. If it is, then it does suggest there are problems. Also people will look at how we've handled RvP as a suggestion that there are problems.

I dont think it's a case of a manager changing things and the players not liking it. More so, it's the fact that we're not getting the desired results for whatever reason and it's having an effect on everyone. The players arent used to this position. They are trying to get themselves out of it but I dont think more effort will mean we will. You can put more effort into a failing strategy and still fail

I think at Bayern things are different - there is a structure in place that the manager is required to work in - including Directors of Football etc. It may also be the case that people dont want to leave Barca to move to Bayern when they'll probably have a job for life within the Barca structure.
 
Well I think you actually agree, rather than disagree. Of course Arsenal and Spurs have better strength and dept in CM and some may say on the wings, however I don't agree I think in terms of quality and talent we have better options than both Arsenal and Spurs. Apart from CM neither team has better defence, GK or attack than us. They just play better as a unit at the moment, especially Arsenal.

And not like both teams didn't have a fair share of injuries and suspensions so can't see that being an excuse really.

The problem lies with motivation, tactics, will to win if you like. We have the quality but don't seem to be playing like a unit at the moment. It may be due to loss of staff, the new manager etc etc, but certainly you can't expect a title winning side that kept all the team, adding a rejuvenated Rooney and that oaf Fellaini to completely turn to shit in the space of 5 months...

Of course not - but some on here seem to want to look everywhere else but the players. Of course there will be issues when a new team comes in and things change at the club - especially when things have been the same for decades and certainly as long as the players have been there.

My view - the squad isnt good enough and we have too many players who simply dont perform well enough, often enough, and too many quality players edging over the hill. Those who have the neccessary quality need to perform and a new manager and team taking training, isnt to my mind an excuse for the very poor levels of performance seen recently.
 
I think at Bayern things are different - there is a structure in place that the manager is required to work in - including Directors of Football etc. It may also be the case that people dont want to leave Barca to move to Bayern when they'll probably have a job for life within the Barca structure.
Yeah then there's no reason to claim it happens at pretty much every club. We dont really know that. Unless you're claiming "pretty much any club I've seen handle a managerial changeover" does it in the way you're describing.
 
But it's not always the case that a manager always bring his back room team. Sometimes he chooses to work with what he's got.

Does wanting to work with people you know and trust justify bringing in coaches less experienced than the ones Fergie left behind? Even though I feel it was the wrong decision, not saying it inherently is as you've stated.

I'm willing to give Moyes until next January. There can be no more excuses after that. None.

To the bolded parts, but other managers have and will continue to do so. Just because they would like to bring their own backroom staff doesnt mean they will. Therefore, it's not always the case that when a new manager arrives, he brings his own backroom team. What happens in general doesnt necessarily justify what has happened this summer. That's my point.


I think that all went out the window when SAF told him he was new manager and he told everyone to back him. Think Moyes has got the liberty to make his own decisions once he stepped in.


On the running bit, I said the players and others have said there is more running than before. Nothing more.

More often than not, that isnt the case, and the reasons for that are understandable. I can think of more times where they have brought their own staff than haven't.

Here I can see why Moyes would want to bring his own men in - firstly to have the support of those he rates and trusts and who have helped him succeed before, and secondly to try and make it clear that this is a new era - as tough as that is to accept, things have changed.

He has a hard enough time replacing Fergie and it might be the case that the old staff, who will likely be loyal to Fergie and used to how he ran things, may not be easy to work with.

The close personel he's brought in are experienced, having worked with him at Everton, so I dont accept that as a criticism. Phil Neville is the exception - but its no different to other players at the club being given coaching roles.

You can argue that it may not have been a wise thing to do - and it may prove to be right. But I can see why MOyes didnt just want to drop into Fergie's old team and take up the reigns as if Fergie wasnt gone - because long term, he needs to have the people around him he wants and who he can delegate to. The club need to trust him to make those changes, and back him when he does.
 
Yeah then there's no reason to claim it happens at pretty much every club. We dont really know that. Unless you're claiming "pretty much any club I've seen handle a managerial changeover" does it in the way you're describing.

How many other examples can you name? Seems to me that its much more common for it to happen than not.
 
Here I can see why Moyes would want to bring his own men in - firstly to have the support of those he rates and trusts and who have helped him succeed before, and secondly to try and make it clear that this is a new era - as tough as that is to accept, things have changed.

He has a hard enough time replacing Fergie and it might be the case that the old staff, who will likely be loyal to Fergie and used to how he ran things, may not be easy to work with.

The close personel he's brought in are experienced, having worked with him at Everton, so I dont accept that as a criticism. Phil Neville is the exception - but its no different to other players at the club being given coaching roles.

You can argue that it may not have been a wise thing to do - and it may prove to be right. But I can see why MOyes didnt just want to drop into Fergie's old team and take up the reigns as if Fergie wasnt gone - because long term, he needs to have the people around him he wants and who he can delegate to. The club need to trust him to make those changes, and back him when he does.

Even though SAF (a guy who's been there and done it with experience to spare) advised against it?
 
Nice rant Dominos. I agree with a lot of what you said, my own bugbear is people thinking Giggs can or should be our manager one day, or calling for Ole as our Moyes replacement. Totally bonkers. It has to be said though, it is interesting that you mention Pep in that very post, because his elevation at Barca was exactly the sort of romantic bullshit situation you (and I) have just slagged off. Pep "knew the Barcelona way", maybe that was merely coincidental but maybe that contributed to the speed of his success.


Pep was a no nonsense hard as nails club legend who the players loved and who had the fear factor in the dressing room. I just can't see Ole or Giggs ever having that kind of fear factor when walking into a dressing room...Roy Keane would have had it had he been able to forge a decent career in managment, but time proved he didn't have the patience for managment......Pep was an air of calmness on the bench in all Barcas big games.....Of all the recent crop..The Neville brothers are the only ex players who strike me as possibles for a good career in amangement..but the game seems to have moved on and I think we may need to go the Martinez/Laudrup foreign manager route to play the kind of attacking winning football that fans want to see these days while also attracting top yooung players from spanish speaking countries
 
GK coach- Only one that is contentious as Steele was very good.

And Chris Woods comes well regarded.
Even though SAF (a guy who's been there and done it with experience to spare) advised against it?
Ferguson will obviously be loyal to his old colleagues, but it's par for the course in any regime change for there to be a turnover in managerial staff.
 
Ferguson will obviously be loyal to his old colleagues, but it's par for the course in any regime change for there to be a turnover in managerial staff.

Apparently he spoke about continuity, guidance and the difference between United and Everton... Is that loyalty to his old colleagues? Or just managerial advice from the old manager to the new? I've said all I intend to say on the second part of your post as I feel like I'm going round in circles...
 
As I said with Coutinho/Oscar that's their 3rd man which would be like us including Rooney or Kagawa in their, we have that option, whether we choose to option is another matter. Gerrard can create from deep but then so can Carrick.
Yet unlike us they utilise their version of Kagawa. Also, when it comes to Chlesea, Lampard, Mikel, Ramires and the injured Van Ginkel all pass the ball forward way more and with more imagintion than Carrick's most consistent partners, Jones or Cleverely.
As I said from their actual deepest players Arsenal/City aside I don't think we're that much worse off (although each team is lacking).
We are far worse of than Chelsea. Lampard, the injured Van Ginkel, Mikel and Ramires all play deep. Even Luiz in emergencies. All play more attacking passes than Cleverely or Jones are currently capable of. Yet unlike Chelsea we rely on a 2 man midfield to start and all build our attacks.
On the last point I think we've seen from Clev in the past say City last season where he can play a disciplined role, I think he played quite solid against Chelsea. I think if he was told to just sit then he would do that, but he seems to be given lisence to go forward which he seems to take him outwide which leaves us with 3 players in the right hand corner usually, valencia, rb and clev and then just one midifelder in the middle. Jones is another, he's got better but previously when he wasn't given a specific tactical role he seemed to end up as an attacking midfielder. I don't see any reason they can't be told to stay central. Neither of them are lazy, they just lack the intelligence to be able to be given more freedom over their movements. Some of it, is of course due to how Valencia plays as I mentioned above, but some of it just seems to be them not being able to deal with some creative license atm.
Our problem is having too much discipline an not enough inspiration in center midfield. Discipline wont create play nor goals for us.

If you look at chelsea, they typically play mikel/ramires and Lampard. I'd say Carrick offers similar protection to Mikel whilst offering more going forward and then I don't see why Clev/jones should be any less solid than ramires/lampard, but as I said too often they seem to be allowed to drift. Even if you rate Ramires better defensively which would be fair enough, that can be countered by the extra work rate of the likes of Valencia/Rooney.
I feel you are plain missing the point. Our issue isn't Carrick nor work rate in center midfield, so comparing him to whom Chelsea have and their comparative work rate levels is pointless. Our issue is all who play beside him: We have zero creativity alongside him save for Giggs and it is costing us big time! As a result of it we differ too much creative burden to wingers and fullbacks who's game (save for Evra) isn't about doing all the creating and worse, we feed our forwards on scraps such that once they get marked out and Carrick and Evra, our current main creative outlets are kept busy defending, we become predictable and easy to deal with, placing our center backs under enormous pressure all game long to keep everything out. I personally don't buy the ''we are too open'' argument. We look open simply because we are toothless going forward. Hence we spend all game long trying to keep raiders out. I mean we didn't lose at home to Everton, Newcastle, nor Swansea nor drop points there to Chelsea and Southampton due to being open. We lost them points simply because we couldn't create squat to kill off the opponents and place permanently them on the back foot at any time during those games. Honestly I feel vs West Brom and Man city were the 2 times we were shockingly open. It really hasn't been my complaint since. I believe you can't shield a back four by creating next to nothing going forward. That is why our defence seems under protected.
 
Not going to read the entire thread, but:

Mike Phelan was a coach at Stockport County before he joined United in 99. He then advanced at United.

Rene came from Al-Sadd (or something similar) when he joined in 2001.

It's not like our previous coaches were signed as fully evolved persons from the likes of Bayern, Barcelona etc. They probably were promising in some way, and evolved while being at United. There are probably hundreds of great coaches at lower level teams (and other PL teams). Us having coaches from Everton does not bother me the slightest.

I do see the argument concerning lack of consistency when Moyes changed the whole staff. On the other hand that should be limited somewhat by Neville returning and Giggs sticking around.
Fact is Giggs and Neville know little about how to run United as coaches. Moyes should have kept at least one of the old backroom staff.
 
Its now sounding like Moyes only brought Steve Round in after Rene had decided to move on. Which is quite different to the arguments being put forward here.
 
Fact is Giggs and Neville know little about how to run United as coaches. Moyes should have kept at least one of the old backroom staff.

Im not sure if you understand their roles as coaches at Utd. They will be running training drills, their job is to get the coaching points across in the training drills relative to whatever type of training session they are looking after. It may be a technical team session, an individual technical session, a tactical session which could in turn be a phase of play, small sided games tactical work, full 11 v 7, 9 0r 11 sessions. Moyes will be dictating what the sessions are, what he wants looked at and achieved. It also sounds like Moyes is more hands on than Fergie which means Moyes will be present and in charge at the more involved sessions and Giggs and Neville will be assisting him.
 


Yes but what was offered to Rene was a step down and only a promotion in name. Rene had design and control of training. Moyes wants to be heavily involved, which imo is an example and a reflection of how he has misjudged the size of the United job (as opposed to his role at Everton) with other non-coaching responsibilities. This left Rene out of the primary responsibility he had under Fergie.

In that article, it also mentioned that Moyes thought the media glare would lessen once after he starts the United job... another indication of his misjudgement of the United job.

The basic problem really is that he replaced a well-oiled WINNING machine with a team that has little to no experience in the CL,winning the EPL or managing a global operation and the higher profile players. You could see the consequences coming from miles away.

Roost. Home.Hatch!
 
Im not sure if you understand their roles as coaches at Utd. They will be running training drills, their job is to get the coaching points across in the training drills relative to whatever type of training session they are looking after. It may be a technical team session, an individual technical session, a tactical session which could in turn be a phase of play, small sided games tactical work, full 11 v 7, 9 0r 11 sessions. Moyes will be dictating what the sessions are, what he wants looked at and achieved. It also sounds like Moyes is more hands on than Fergie which means Moyes will be present and in charge at the more involved sessions and Giggs and Neville will be assisting him.

The problem is that, Giggs are just a teammates most have been playing for years (specially with the likes of Evra, Carrick, Rio, Vidic, Rooney, etc who has been here more than a few good years)

They have been drilled / coached by the same coach, managed by the same manager.

IMO Moyes just take Giggs/Neville as a token, and there is absolutely no way that he can properly assess whether or not Giggs has what it takes to become a coach technically (mentally probably without doubt). Moyes barely know Giggs, how the hell he knows he got what it takes.

And Phil doesn't have a glorious career compared to the rest of our squad, how can they take him seriously when all he incorporated are Everton shithouse training methods that Neville got himself accustomed to?
 
The problem is that, Giggs are just a teammates most have been playing for years (specially with the likes of Evra, Carrick, Rio, Vidic, Rooney, etc who has been here more than a few good years)

They have been drilled / coached by the same coach, managed by the same manager.

IMO Moyes just take Giggs/Neville as a token, and there is absolutely no way that he can properly assess whether or not Giggs has what it takes to become a coach technically (mentally probably without doubt). Moyes barely know Giggs, how the hell he knows he got what it takes.

And Phil doesn't have a glorious career compared to the rest of our squad, how can they take him seriously when all he incorporated are Everton shithouse training methods that Neville got himself accustomed to?

The problem is that Giggs and Neville have been doing their UEFA badges, those course teach people how to coach, what coaching techniques and methods to use and why to use them. If you have done any coaching at a decent level you will know that it isnt a hard thing to see and assess if a coach is taking drills the right way etc. Moyes will be more than capable of assessing a Giggs or Neville run session.
I think you are confusing managing a side with the coaching staff who run training sessions for the manager following a managers direction.

A player who hasnt had a career as glorious as other players doesnt mean he isnt capable of running good coaching sessions. Coaching is an entirely different animal to training and players respect coaches because of the feedback and instruction they get at training rather than what they themselves did as a player.
 
The problem is that Giggs and Neville have been doing their UEFA badges, those course teach people how to coach, what coaching techniques and methods to use and why to use them. If you have done any coaching at a decent level you will know that it isnt a hard thing to see and assess if a coach is taking drills the right way etc. Moyes will be more than capable of assessing a Giggs or Neville run session.
I think you are confusing managing a side with the coaching staff who run training sessions for the manager following a managers direction.

A player who hasnt had a career as glorious as other players doesnt mean he isnt capable of running good coaching sessions. Coaching is an entirely different animal to training and players respect coaches because of the feedback and instruction they get at training rather than what they themselves did as a player.

Yeah, and Rene has been doing that too, infact not only he's fresh from the oven, he has done it 10+ years.

I can't believe how having the UEFA badges merits to anything, anyone with half a working brain can pass. But not everyone have it takes to manages United.

He can coach, no doubt about it. But not at United. He could have done well anywhere else where people listen to him and take him seriously. I don't think the likes of Rooney, Rio can take him seriously even if they respect him.

EDIT: and based on that, we can simply hire anyone with a badges because all they do is instruct players based on Moyes' direction.

Rene is more than a coach, he give inputs, he gives opinion and ideas based on what he sees, and that takes experiences and nous more than simply a badges. I believe he also gave ideas and inputs on how our opponents works. It's like scouting, the longer you are in the job, the faster you see things.
 
Yeah, and Rene has been doing that too, infact not only he's fresh from the oven, he has done it 10+ years.

I can't believe how having the UEFA badges merits to anything, anyone with half a working brain can pass. But not everyone have it takes to manages United.

He can coach, no doubt about it. But not at United. He could have done well anywhere else where people listen to him and take him seriously. I don't think the likes of Rooney, Rio can take him seriously even if they respect him.

EDIT: and based on that, we can simply hire anyone with a badges because all they do is instruct players based on Moyes' direction.

Rene is more than a coach, he give inputs, he gives opinion and ideas based on what he sees, and that takes experiences and nous more than simply a badges. I believe he also gave ideas and inputs on how our opponents works. It's like scouting, the longer you are in the job, the faster you see things.

Anyone with half a brain can get a UEFA badge?. Seriously? Do you have any idea whats involved and how much work and how difficult they are to obtain? Clearly not.

Both Giggs and Neville have spent most of their lives being coached by a long list of high quality coaches from junior to youth to senior. Along the way they will have seen a thousand different training drills and will also understand why those drills are used and how to run them. Between their time as pro players and their time coaching youth teams and reserve sides whilst obtaining their various coaching badges they will have built up a considerable amount of knowledge related to running the drills effectively. Moyes will be setting the drills etc with Steve Round and Giggs and Neville will be among a number of coaches at Utd who are implementing the sessions. I think you are comparing apples with oranges if you are comparing Giggs and Nevilles rolls with what Rene did. Two quite seperate things
 
Anyone with half a brain can get a UEFA badge?. Seriously? Do you have any idea whats involved and how much work and how difficult they are to obtain? Clearly not.

Both Giggs and Neville have spent most of their lives being coached by a long list of high quality coaches from junior to youth to senior. Along the way they will have seen a thousand different training drills and will also understand why those drills are used and how to run them. Between their time as pro players and their time coaching youth teams and reserve sides whilst obtaining their various coaching badges they will have built up a considerable amount of knowledge related to running the drills effectively. Moyes will be setting the drills etc with Steve Round and Giggs and Neville will be among a number of coaches at Utd who are implementing the sessions. I think you are comparing apples with oranges if you are comparing Giggs and Nevilles rolls with what Rene did. Two quite seperate things

Yup. Every coaches in the league got them, big deal. You don't drive for 20 years and fail the license.

But to drive like a F1 driver takes more than the license.

Big deal again, so does Evra, Rio, Vidic, and the rest of the players (probably not the youth), but most of them have been coached by first class coach.

What's different between Rene and Giggs, they're both coach.
 
Yup. Every coaches in the league got them, big deal. You don't drive for 20 years and fail the license.

But to drive like a F1 driver takes more than the license.

Big deal again, so does Evra, Rio, Vidic, and the rest of the players (probably not the youth), but most of them have been coached by first class coach.

What's different between Rene and Giggs, they're both coach.

theres your problem, you dont understand the difference between Rene's coaching job and Giggs coaching job.
 
theres your problem, you dont understand the difference between Rene's coaching job and Giggs coaching job.

What's different?

Explain.

Round = Phelan

Giggs = Rene

Unless I'm missing something then? The point is, Rene >>> Giggs at this moment, and sacking him and putting Neville + Giggs there weakens us alot. It might not show against the likes of Stoke and Sunderland (tbf, it does though), but take it against Bayern, Madrid, Barca, having that extra experiences in tactical department help.

If you can't understand a simple fact that Rene > Giggs, then we don't have anything to argue.
 
What's different?

Explain.

Round = Phelan

Giggs = Rene

Unless I'm missing something then? The point is, Rene >>> Giggs at this moment, and sacking him and putting Neville + Giggs there weakens us alot. It might not show against the likes of Stoke and Sunderland (tbf, it does though), but take it against Bayern, Madrid, Barca, having that extra experiences in tactical department help.

If you can't understand a simple fact that Rene > Giggs, then we don't have anything to argue.

Are you deliberately being obtuse? Moyes takes the coaching sessions himself, so Moyes is in Rene's role (and SAFs).

I agree that we should have kept our existing coaching staff but Giggs isn't doing Rene's role at all. From what he has said he might take the wingers for crossing sessions if they're not in the matchday squad. He isn't preparing the team for games, Moyes is.
 
What's different?

Explain.

Round = Phelan

Giggs = Rene

Unless I'm missing something then? The point is, Rene >>> Giggs at this moment, and sacking him and putting Neville + Giggs there weakens us alot. It might not show against the likes of Stoke and Sunderland (tbf, it does though), but take it against Bayern, Madrid, Barca, having that extra experiences in tactical department help.

If you can't understand a simple fact that Rene > Giggs, then we don't have anything to argue.

Giggs is not doing Rene's job at all. Yes Rene is better than Giggs is because Giggs is just starting out but Giggs doesnt do any of the things Rene did. Giggs is part of the coaching staff who help run sessions, Rene when working with Fergie designed and set up the drills in sessions to obtain required outcomes with respect to tactics and preparation for games. Giggs is one of many coaches who Rene would have been overseeing with respect to setting up and running drills.
 
Even though SAF (a guy who's been there and done it with experience to spare) advised against it?

Is this the case? Maybe you can post a link or something?

Regardless, yet again people go back to what Fergie said or wants, or thinks is preferable. He's gone, and should keep his nose out and allow Moyes to do his job.

If Moyes is considered good enough to be handed a six year contract by the club then surely he is able to decide what he thinks he needs to be successful and who he needs around him to do his job? If not, then why employ him in the first place?

Anyway, If we go down that route, Fergie's parting words were to give the manager 100% backing. Aimed at the fans but also, I suspect at the club management.

Perhaps not moving people on may have brought more immediate success, but to me, you're simply delaying the inevitable and trying to sugar coat the truth - that there is a new manager, with new ideas and new ways and means of doing things. Everyone at the club needs to accept that, deal with it and move on.

A good example of where this hasn't happened is Liverpool in the 90's - still stuck in the past with the "Liverpool Bootroom" harking back to years gone by with the same old coaches knocking about trying to repeat previous successes. It didn't work and the club ended up living in the past.

That, for me is a major reason why a new manager should be able to bring his own staff in and build a structure to suit him, just like Fergie did at United, without immediate success.
 
Yeah then there's no reason to claim it happens at pretty much every club. We dont really know that. Unless you're claiming "pretty much any club I've seen handle a managerial changeover" does it in the way you're describing.

I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make.

I said that more often than not a manager will want to take his own staff with him when he moves clubs, which I believe to be the case. I've also explained why I think that is the case.
 
I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make.

I said that more often than not a manager will want to take his own staff with him when he moves clubs, which I believe to be the case. I've also explained why I think that is the case.


You're right. The management team is a 'team' too. Moyes was appointed because of the job he did at Everton, for which Lumsden, Round and Woods were part of. I would be more surprised that a manager would abandon his trusted team,rather then wanting them alongside him.
 
You're right. The management team is a 'team' too. Moyes was appointed because of the job he did at Everton, for which Lumsden, Round and Woods were part of. I would be more surprised that a manager would abandon his trusted team,rather then wanting them alongside him.


Moyes said he offered Rene assistant manger role. Basically a promotion.