At the end of the day both Rooney and Mata are very different number tens but both are excellent. I feel with their respective skill sets we would be better with Rooney at 10 and Mata out wide. But this is a "wide" that is different to United traditions. Not the winger bombing forward but the player who drifts and floats in the hole.
Using Mata effectively
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At the end of the day both Rooney and Mata are very different number tens but both are excellent. I feel with their respective skill sets we would be better with Rooney at 10 and Mata out wide. But this is a "wide" that is different to United traditions. Not the winger bombing forward but the player who drifts and floats in the hole.
@MadWinger While I mostly agree with you (I think Rooney is the level below world class as a 10 but is world class as a #9), I think Rooney has shown throughout the years how versatile he is and how adaptable to different playing styles he is. The style of our changed has constantly changed throughout these last 10 years, and Rooney has always been a key player and looked great. Back when Ronaldo was here we played quick football with the front players interchanging and he looked great, then the next season he's the leading striker and plays great, and then the season later a more rigid formation behind Hernandez and once again, Rooney performs. Doesn't matter the style of football, world class players like Rooney and Van Persie and mata will find a way to make it work. Rooney always seems to form really good partnerships with whoever he's partnered with anyways, so I'm not too worried about fitting them both in.
Assists come in all shapes and colors. If the ball deflects off your foot and then another player scores, it's an assist. If the goalkeeper saves your shot and another player scores from the rebound, it's an assist. Corner kicks and freekicks that aren't particularly well taken but ends up in the back of the net, are also often assists.
My point is: Rooney would probably not have any less assists playing as a main targetman. And if he did, then he'd probably just compensate with more goals. That's the type of player he is. Target man or "deep striker": it makes no difference. He offers the same thing: goals/assists. What he doesn't offer though, is creativity, quick one-two's, quick turns etc etc. He has a tendency of passing the ball out to the winger and rush into the box, go for a long shot(which ends up in the back of the net 1 out of 10 times), or simply lose possession. But that can be forgiven, because of all the goals.
Why not add creativity to the game AND keep Rooney's goalthreat? That is the point I'm trying to make. Whether you like it or not, a player like Rooney in the hole means less creativity. That's why You don't see any other players like him in the AM position for the other top teams. Had Real/Barca/Chelsea/Arsenal/Bayern/Dortmund etc signed Rooney, then they'd never play him as a no.10. He'd take the striker position immediately. And if he failed there, then he'd either be placed as a wide forward or on the bench.
Impact sub.
i think we can be flexible enough here. if moyes is opting for a city like attack, then we'll see van persie and rooney as our forwards, with mata and januzaj cutting inside from the wings.
if moyes want to use the chelsea like formation, then we'll have van persie upfront, with rooney,mata and januzaj behind him. i hope we'll see a lot of interchanging between those 4.
if moyes want to use the chelsea like formation, then we'll have van persie upfront, with rooney,mata and januzaj behind him. i hope we'll see a lot of interchanging between those 4.
There is not many options apart from out wide in our set up when oppositions teams have a lot of players behind the ball. I have not seen much of these effective 'quick one-two's' and 'creativity' from Kagawa in the premier league for example. Rooney played with a functioning midfield in a much better set up in the second half of the 10/11 season and the way he played in that number 10 role is better than anything I've seen from Mata or Kagawa in that role. We haven't seen Rooney in front of a top midfield very often..
I can understand you wanting Rooney pushed up front but I think you go way over the top with comments like how you would die inside if Rooney was played in the number 10 role ahead of Mata.
Why have we let this mad fecker turn the thread into a Rooney is not our best number 10 thread?
He's been our only number 10 willing to man up and take control of a game, Mata coming in changes that offering a versatility that Kagawa promised without delivering.
He's been our only number 10 willing to man up and take control of a game, Mata coming in changes that offering a versatility that Kagawa promised without delivering.
I really hope that we'll stick him to the right 'wing' and let him cut inside although I'm well aware that we'll still see Valencia on the right wing in a couple of matches and caf will be in full meltdown there.
For me, to use them effectively will still require rotation as much as some people might hate the thought.
RVP
Januzaj - Rooney - Mata
Rooney
Januzaj - Mata - Nani(?)
RVP
Mata - Rooney - Januzaj
Loads of options.
RVP
Januzaj - Rooney - Mata
Rooney
Januzaj - Mata - Nani(?)
RVP
Mata - Rooney - Januzaj
Loads of options.
De Gea
Rafael - Smalling - Jones - LB
CM/Fellaini - CM
Mata - Kagawa/Rooney - Januzaj
Rooney/van Persie
Rafael - Smalling - Jones - LB
CM/Fellaini - CM
Mata - Kagawa/Rooney - Januzaj
Rooney/van Persie
That attacking trio behind the striker are all inter-changeable and fluid in possession/movement off the ball, and the true width will be offered by the wing-backs in Rafael and our new LB.
I think that side is more than good enough to challenge at the top again, especially if our new LB and CM(s) are of the highest quality. I also think Fellaini will prove a lot of folk here wrong and prove his worth once he gets somebody with the highest stamina in beside him. I expect Fellaini to have a very good World Cup and come back to us in August brimming with confidence.
It's becoming a bit of a rarity to have Rooney and RVP both fit, so Mata behind the striker when they're not and Mata cutting in from the right when they are. Can't wait to see them play together.
Him, Kagawa, Januzaj and RVP should link up nicely in theory. In theory. Reality will be harsh though. No movement, static slow motion zombie passing... Mata will soon regret the day he thought he can play football here.
Off either of the flanks.
I think its a bit of a waste playing him at 10. He can definitely do it, but when you have that level of creativity out wide (and the sort of wide player he would be) it gives you an opportunity to play Rooney (who isn't that creative for a 10) and benefit from the extra goals.
I think its a bit of a waste playing him at 10. He can definitely do it, but when you have that level of creativity out wide (and the sort of wide player he would be) it gives you an opportunity to play Rooney (who isn't that creative for a 10) and benefit from the extra goals.
If Moyes will keep signing players and correcting his own and Fergie's mistakes then the player will be happy.
Mata wants to play in every match and we will make him someone far more important than that. It's gonna be alright I think.
If we somehow created an incredibly fluid formation which had Rooney, Mata and Januzaj all behind RVP and able to interchange, and we tasked our two central midfielders to have a main priority of holding, we could see some really incredible football.
Maybe.
Maybe.
Mata-------Rooney------Januzaj
---------------RvP-------------------
It's the only way to go, I would rather have Mata in the hole but you can't bench Rooney and RvP is a better striker than him.
---------------RvP-------------------
It's the only way to go, I would rather have Mata in the hole but you can't bench Rooney and RvP is a better striker than him.
Gundogan and Herrera would be nice to have behind them.
Formation wise - Mata is one player so it's horses for courses.
It's tricky to get all worked up if you expect us to improve straight off.
Mata gives us a shit load of options but it's still down to the others that are failing.
We still need a decent CM or a miracle that Mata can't really help us with.
It's tricky to get all worked up if you expect us to improve straight off.
Mata gives us a shit load of options but it's still down to the others that are failing.
We still need a decent CM or a miracle that Mata can't really help us with.
Till RVP is back
------ Rooney ------
Mata --Kagawa ---- Janujaz (Nani)
-----Fletcher Carrick---
Evra -- Evans Smalling -- Rafael
---------Lindegaard -----
Kidding about Lindegaard
Put Rooney in place of Kagawa and RVP takes Rooney spot when he is back.
------ Rooney ------
Mata --Kagawa ---- Janujaz (Nani)
-----Fletcher Carrick---
Evra -- Evans Smalling -- Rafael
---------Lindegaard -----
Kidding about Lindegaard
Put Rooney in place of Kagawa and RVP takes Rooney spot when he is back.
As part as a fluid, flexible and interchanging trio with two of Rooney, Januzaj and Kagawa.
It remains to be seen whether Moyes is capable of implementing a more expressive and free-flowing style of play and up to this stage of his United tenure he has been tactically inept far too often. It would certainly be a waste of Mata's talents if we were to stick him on the left or right in the rigid, restricted and uninspiring system we currently deploy.
Tactically we are very old-fashioned, but quality personnel can still make a massive impact even if the coaching isn't at the same level. Our midfield problems stem from having poor off-the-ball movement - out of possession - and even worse on it; a passive and brittle midfield; and lethargy in our tempo.
Mata would go along way in improving our off the ball movement and would also combine well with our more technical players like Kagawa and Januzaj, so hopefully they can improve further, especially Kagawa who has a lot to prove. And our creativity and passing and probing would improve immeasurably in the final third. We would just need a more solid, dynamic and powerful midfield base to let the front four flourish, while the fullbacks provide the width.
It remains to be seen whether Moyes is capable of implementing a more expressive and free-flowing style of play and up to this stage of his United tenure he has been tactically inept far too often. It would certainly be a waste of Mata's talents if we were to stick him on the left or right in the rigid, restricted and uninspiring system we currently deploy.
Tactically we are very old-fashioned, but quality personnel can still make a massive impact even if the coaching isn't at the same level. Our midfield problems stem from having poor off-the-ball movement - out of possession - and even worse on it; a passive and brittle midfield; and lethargy in our tempo.
Mata would go along way in improving our off the ball movement and would also combine well with our more technical players like Kagawa and Januzaj, so hopefully they can improve further, especially Kagawa who has a lot to prove. And our creativity and passing and probing would improve immeasurably in the final third. We would just need a more solid, dynamic and powerful midfield base to let the front four flourish, while the fullbacks provide the width.
Januzaj - Rooney - Mata
---------- RVP
Should bring back the fear factor.
Need two new CMs to really challenge in CL though. Jone of our current lot are good enough at that level now (if ever).
---------- RVP
Should bring back the fear factor.
Need two new CMs to really challenge in CL though. Jone of our current lot are good enough at that level now (if ever).
I would tend to buy into this opinion in terms of philosophy. With the likes of RVP, Rooney, Kagawa, Januzaj, Young, Chicarito etc with the right mentality we should be creating and scoring more goals without mata, throwing mata in will help but I think there is enough there already to be scoring a lot more goals than we are but it is not happening under the current philosopy, however lets start the Moyes buying process where after he has signed who he wants there can be no more excuses or defending him if results don't work out. The main side bonus of signing the likes of mata now is, even if deployed improperly in a tumescent tactical system, if moyes fecks up again next season and gets the bullet at least an incoming manager can work with a typically Manchester United player like mata, and the signing is a boost that we can sign the likes of him even given the pile of shit we are currently in, we can still attract top top players, that is very important.
There you go, someone with a creative mind that can see other options other than rigid, FM thinking.
I wouldn't call FM users rigid. Tactically retarded, yes.
If that's the case I hope we play Kagawa wide rather than Valencia/Young. He'd compliment the likes of Mata and presses and defends well. If we play Valencia I can still see everything go through him despite Mata being there which would be
Having 3 CM will allow Mata, Januzaj and Rooney/RVP more licence to go upfront. No matter what happens this issue is somehow temporary. Rooney may leave + RVP at age 30-31 wont be able to play week in week out for long
Right "winger" in 4231, in order to accommodate both RVP, Rooney, Mata and Januzaj at the same line-up. Thats the only way to do it.
He's the kind of playmaker that will fit in anywhere. He's versatile, robust and intelligent, as long as we don't restrict him to one zone and let him rotate positions with other players, he will be a beast for us.
For purely fluid attacking football, I would play this though:
Mata Kagawa Januzaj
RVP / Rooney
RVP / Rooney
Rooney in the hole and Mata starting wide is surely better than Mata in the hole and Rooney out wide/not on the pitch. The Kagawa situation has people concerned because he hasn't managed to perform particularly well from the left, we won't have any such problems with Mata I feel.
Mata and Januzaj on the wings does sound like we'd be hanging our full-backs out to dry, but damn some exciting football would be nice.
Mata and Januzaj on the wings does sound like we'd be hanging our full-backs out to dry, but damn some exciting football would be nice.
Minus Rooney, it is up there as the most technical front 4 in the world, but I suspect it needs a world class midfield base which United don't have, for Moyes to have the confidence to play the 3 behind Van Persie.
Would prefer
Januzaj Rooney Mata
RVP
But with Januzaj perhaps needing a bit of rest I'd playRVP
Mata Rooney Kagawa
RVP
RVP
With Rooney said to be extending his contract I wonder if plans are to start withdrawing him here and there and by that I mean backwards not to the bench.
-------------------RVP--------------
Nani/Kagawa---Mata-----Januzaj-
--------------Rooney--------------
--Jones/Fletcher------Carrick---
He's already shown Paul Scholes type ability, spraying balls left and right and is always available to keep the ball rolling so to speak.
Matas arrival could see Rooney deployed this way should we fail to bring in a deeper central mid.
This is just a thought but I reckon we could safely rely on that front four to create and with Rooneys work rate have enough defensive cover without losing the link to attack.
-------------------RVP--------------
Nani/Kagawa---Mata-----Januzaj-
--------------Rooney--------------
--Jones/Fletcher------Carrick---
He's already shown Paul Scholes type ability, spraying balls left and right and is always available to keep the ball rolling so to speak.
Matas arrival could see Rooney deployed this way should we fail to bring in a deeper central mid.
This is just a thought but I reckon we could safely rely on that front four to create and with Rooneys work rate have enough defensive cover without losing the link to attack.
Nah if there are such plans he'll be out in no time. And enough of just spraying ball wide all the time. We need midielders who can play in between the lines better.
I do agree at this moment, just thinking it could work to get us to the summer, if we fail to bolster the midfield further. My thoughts on Rooney coming deeper are more long term, exactly the manner in which Scholes career was extended.
Cheers Ekeke informative as usual buddy. I'm looking forward to some goals from others than RVP and Rooney. The change in formation is welcomed a 433 or 4231 or 4312 whatever I don't care as long as we are fluid and attractive again as its been a while.
The interesting thing with this signing for me is that unlike Kagawa, who came from a foreign league, was unproven etc, Mata has shown to be a top player in the PL.
Essentially if we get the same issues as with Kagawa we know that it's not the players, it's the team setup.
We need to switch away from traditional wingers and we have the squad to do so. If Rooney ends up staying then my dream team would likely end up dropping RVP, and playing Rooney up top with an attacking trio behind of Mata, Kagawa and Januzaj.
Nani, RVP, Hernandez, Welbeck and Zaha would also naturally be rotated in on a regular basis.
What we have in those players is the ability to play good, fluid, attacking football. We still need a creative CM to sit behind them and feed the ball in to the attacking players rather than hoofing it, but we are getting there.
Essentially if we get the same issues as with Kagawa we know that it's not the players, it's the team setup.
We need to switch away from traditional wingers and we have the squad to do so. If Rooney ends up staying then my dream team would likely end up dropping RVP, and playing Rooney up top with an attacking trio behind of Mata, Kagawa and Januzaj.
Nani, RVP, Hernandez, Welbeck and Zaha would also naturally be rotated in on a regular basis.
What we have in those players is the ability to play good, fluid, attacking football. We still need a creative CM to sit behind them and feed the ball in to the attacking players rather than hoofing it, but we are getting there.
I think eventually the plan will be to play him as part of a fluid trio with Rooney and Januzaj behind RvP, where it wouldn't be a case of a set position but a lot of interchanging and movement. I think we might have to wait until next season to see it though as you need a strong 2 at the base of midfield for it to work, so I see Mata playing from the left with Valencia on the right, and occasionally on the right with Young or Welbz on the left.
If Rooney signs a contract, this wont be a short term thing. Considering RVPs style, if he remains fit, I fully expect him to play at a very high level for 2-3 years.
I dont mind a 3 man midfield at all, but not when the midfielders are of our quality. Much rather we have Rooney dropping deep and the 2 CMs instructed to focus defensively. Getting in a Jones in midfield when it means benching one of RVP or Rooney is a no go for me.