Using Mata effectively

Varun_Utd said:
If Rooney signs a contract, this wont be a short term thing. Considering RVPs style, if he remains fit, I fully expect him to play at a very high level for 2-3 years.

I dont mind a 3 man midfield at all, but not when the midfielders are of our quality. Much rather we have Rooney dropping deep and the 2 CMs instructed to focus defensively. Getting in a Jones in midfield when it means benching one of RVP or Rooney is a no go for me.
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Weeeeelll, I wouldn't bet so much on RVP. He'll be 31 next season and he's got a long injury history record. I am not saying that he'll soon become shit. However Moyes would be wise to use him adequately.

I am in favor of the 3 men CM because our CM lack quality. What you lack in quality you need to compensate with bodies. As stated Carrick and Fellaini are painfully slow and Jones is not a world beater. To be fair while there are better CM around I cant see anyone (apart from Vidal) who can support a 2 men midfield.
 
devilish said:
Weeeeelll, I wouldn't bet so much on RVP. He'll be 31 next season and he's got a long injury history record. I am not saying that he'll soon become shit. However Moyes would be wise to use him adequately.

I am in favor of the 3 men CM because our CM lack quality. What you lack in quality you need to compensate with bodies. As stated Carrick and Fellaini are painfully slow and Jones is not a world beater. To be fair while there are better CM around I cant see anyone (apart from Vidal) who can support a 2 men midfield.
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I agree it lacks quality but just putting in numbers there isnt a good idea when it means we'd have to drop one of our top 3 players. Too big a sacrifice.

As I said, the important thing is how the CMs are set up. If they are focused defensively, that front 4 can definitely work. Then in the summer, get another top CM in and we're all set.

Rooney doesnt really play much different to most AMs, I dont get the fuss tbh. Our weakness is the 2 behind him.
 
Varun_Utd said:
I agree it lacks quality but just putting in numbers there isnt a good idea when it means we'd have to drop one of our top 3 players. Too big a sacrifice.

As I said, the important thing is how the CMs are set up. If they are focused defensively, that front 4 can definitely work. Then in the summer, get another top CM in and we're all set.

Rooney doesnt really play much different to most AMs, I dont get the fuss tbh. Our weakness is the 2 behind him.
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I think you're misunderstanding. Having 3 CM will mean having the three attacking minded players focusing on what they know best ie creating and scoring goals. It will relieve the stress from CM who can focus on winning the ball while releasing the attacking minded players from constantly having to track back and save the CM sorry arses.

And what's this obsession of playing every big name we have in every game possible? We tried that when we brought JSV (ie moving from the iconic 4-4-2 system to a 4-5-1 one) and it didnt actually worked. Having quality players on the bench capable of giving a different approach to the game work wonders during the treble. It will work wonders now

Mind deep down Id wish that we can play all the heavy weights but I can't see us getting a Roy Keane or two in the near future. Under such circumstances we will probably see all the big boys in action only against the weaker sides
 
Lawman said:
Cheers Ekeke informative as usual buddy. I'm looking forward to some goals from others than RVP and Rooney. The change in formation is welcomed a 433 or 4231 or 4312 whatever I don't care as long as we are fluid and attractive again as its been a while.
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True, Mata gets double figures for goals in all competitions on a regular basis. And for Chelsea last season he managed 20 in all competitions as they had club world cup, europa, champions league, fa cup and carling cup fixtures as well the premier league. Whether he's played in the hole or starting from the wing he should be scoring a lot more often than our wingers and Kagawa
 
I read a quote in another thread saying Giggs his is idol and mentioned he plays in the same position. Shove him out wide.
 
Stack said:
There you go, someone with a creative mind that can see other options other than rigid, FM thinking.
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I've gone on to state my reasons on how it could work, so if you aren't going to contribute with a decent argument opposed to it, or your thoughts on the matter, don't bother replying.
 
If we're going to successfully integrate Mata alongside Rooney and RvP, let alone the likes of Januzaj, Kagawa etc, then Valencia has to go and we need to start playing a different kind of football, with emphasis on breaking through the middle, not play the ball wide and lob it in for Hernandez and Adnan.
 
devilish said:
I think you're misunderstanding. Having 3 CM will mean having the three attacking minded players focusing on what they know best ie creating and scoring goals. It will relieve the stress from CM who can focus on winning the ball while releasing the attacking minded players from constantly having to track back and save the CM sorry arses.

And what's this obsession of playing every big name we have in every game possible? We tried that when we brought JSV (ie moving from the iconic 4-4-2 system to a 4-5-1 one) and it didnt actually worked. Having quality players on the bench capable of giving a different approach to the game work wonders during the treble. It will work wonders now

Mind deep down Id wish that we can play all the heavy weights but I can't see us getting a Roy Keane or two in the near future. Under such circumstances we will probably see all the big boys in action only against the weaker sides
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I got your point. But isnt the same possible if say a Carrick and Jones CM is told to do the same? Win the ball, pass it forward, stay back and screen? I think our problem is that we expect our CMs to contribute in more than one phase of play when they arent that good.

And regarding the rest of it, we will play all 3. Its as simple as that. You dont have the likes of RVP, Rooney or Mata as options from the bench. What is more likely to happen is that Januzaj will get a well deserved rest and we'l see one of Young or Valencia play still. But once he's had a game or 2 from the bench, it'l be tough to keep him out. He's just been that good.
 
Chelsea fans on different forums pray we shift him out wide. They're convinced he'll flop if Moyes plays him there.
 
rio's upper lip said:
Chelsea fans on different forums pray we shift him out wide. They're convinced he'll flop if Moyes plays him there.
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It's only Valencia that's really played as a typical winger for us. Whoever has been played on the left has been given the freedom to cut in. I reckon Mata will start on the left but not be asked to play as a typical United winger.
 
Moyes will Pienaar him out wide. But did Pienaar hug the touchline? No. He's naturally twice the player Pienaar is too so this could be fun.

There's a misconception amongst the more retarded Chelsea fans that he's leaving because he wasn't playing as a no.10. He's leaving because he wasn't given a run in the team and often a sub on and off. The alleged issue was a clash of style with what Mourinho wants from his 3 attacking mids. Nothing to do with whether he lined up left, right or centre...he always had the freedom to roam and switch with Hazard and Oscar anyway.

He CAN play anywhere across that attacking line minus right up top, and given the chance of a run he will perform. He'll also be playing with a few goalscorers so if he can set up 20-30 a season with Torres, imagine how he'll do with Rooney RVP and Hernandez?
 
rio's upper lip said:
Chelsea fans on different forums pray we shift him out wide. They're convinced he'll flop if Moyes plays him there.
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They must not have seen him play anywhere but at Chelsea then. He does not need to play just behind the striker to excel. No one's asking him to do a Valencia when played slightly wide.
 
If Rooney or RVP are out/suspended/need a rest = Mata in the hole
Everyone fit = Mata on the right
Everyone fit and Valencia starting = Mata on the left

From what I've seen of him he's best in the hole and very good starting from the right. Playing from the left doesn't seem to suit him that well, imo.
 
Tarrou said:
If Rooney or RVP are out/suspended/need a rest = Mata in the hole
Everyone fit = Mata on the right
Everyone fit and Valencia starting = Mata on the left

From what I've seen of him he's best in the hole and very good starting from the right. Playing from the left doesn't seem to suit him that well, imo.
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If this is true, Kagawa still has a role to play, he just needs to get his head down and make himself better playing from the left.
 
Hopefully he's on the right with Kagawa on the left and both told to roam like Kagawa currently does. Rooney will be asked to play a little deeper to start the attacks. The midfield two behind can then concentrate on the defensive shape and can support the fullbacks who will be expected to provide the width.

Moyes has clearly told Valencia to cut n more this season with Rafa bombing on. Mata will do the same but actually be capable of....well....doing anything!!!

It's going to be glorious. :drool::drool::drool:
 
Varun_Utd said:
I got your point. But isnt the same possible if say a Carrick and Jones CM is told to do the same? Win the ball, pass it forward, stay back and screen? I think our problem is that we expect our CMs to contribute in more than one phase of play when they arent that good.

And regarding the rest of it, we will play all 3. Its as simple as that. You dont have the likes of RVP, Rooney or Mata as options from the bench. What is more likely to happen is that Januzaj will get a well deserved rest and we'l see one of Young or Valencia play still. But once he's had a game or 2 from the bench, it'l be tough to keep him out. He's just been that good.
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It may work. Unfortunately Im a bit of pessimist about it. Carrick is getting older and was never fast, Fellaini isn't fast either and Jones is decent in CM but nothing more. Things may change if we get Vidal and Fletch returns to his former self. However I doubt it will happen. Also if I remember well Moyes loved a 3 men midfield and many teams work with it.

There's nothing wrong in rotating RVP, Mata, Rooney and Januzaj. Manchester United's campaign is ridiculously long and having 4 players competing for 3 places is not that terrible especially when one is nearly 31
 
devilish said:
It may work. Unfortunately Im a bit of pessimist about it. Carrick is getting older and was never fast, Fellaini isn't fast either and Jones is decent in CM but nothing more. Things may change if we get Vidal and Fletch returns to his former self. However I doubt it will happen. Also if I remember well Moyes loved a 3 men midfield and many teams work with it.

There's nothing wrong in rotating RVP, Mata, Rooney and Januzaj. Manchester United's campaign is ridiculously long and having 4 players competing for 3 places is not that terrible especially when one is nearly 31
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Januszaj needs a break and soon, unfortunately he's been our only creative player of late.Hopefully with Rooney and RVP coming back soon this will aford him the break and we can play the aforementioned 3 more often...it's not as if they'll be knackered from playing time
 
devilish said:
It may work. Unfortunately Im a bit of pessimist about it. Carrick is getting older and was never fast, Fellaini isn't fast either and Jones is decent in CM but nothing more. Things may change if we get Vidal and Fletch returns to his former self. However I doubt it will happen. Also if I remember well Moyes loved a 3 men midfield and many teams work with it.

There's nothing wrong in rotating RVP, Mata, Rooney and Januzaj. Manchester United's campaign is ridiculously long and having 4 players competing for 3 places is not that terrible especially when one is nearly 31
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Aye, we do need a new CM for that to work perfectly but we'l have to make do with what we have till summer.

I dont think Januzaj is a cert starter. He'l be rotated and he actually needs to considering how much he's played. The other 3 wont be though.

As I said earlier, why isnt Rooney being considered the 3rd midfielder here? Its been quite a while since we actually regularly played with 2 outright strikers, the attacking mid role being played by Rooney doesnt change that. The problem is the 2 behind him, not that he plays as a striker.
 
Varun_Utd said:
Aye, we do need a new CM for that to work perfectly but we'l have to make do with what we have till summer.

I dont think Januzaj is a cert starter. He'l be rotated and he actually needs to considering how much he's played. The other 3 wont be though.

As I said earlier, why isnt Rooney being considered the 3rd midfielder here? Its been quite a while since we actually regularly played with 2 outright strikers, the attacking mid role being played by Rooney doesnt change that. The problem is the 2 behind him, not that he plays as a striker.
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Rooney doesn't want to be the 3rd midfielder and seems that he wont bulge.
 
devilish said:
Rooney doesn't want to be the 3rd midfielder and seems that he wont bulge.
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He's been playing it most games this season. He's just thick. You tell him you're playing as the furthest midfielder, he cries. You tell him you have a free role behind RVP, he plays as the 3rd midfielder anyways. He just isnt a player that likes not being involved. He'l always come deep and get involved.
 
gasmanc said:
With Rooney said to be extending his contract I wonder if plans are to start withdrawing him here and there and by that I mean backwards not to the bench.

-------------------RVP--------------

Nani/Kagawa---Mata-----Januzaj-


--------------Rooney--------------

--Jones/Fletcher------Carrick---

He's already shown Paul Scholes type ability, spraying balls left and right and is always available to keep the ball rolling so to speak.
Matas arrival could see Rooney deployed this way should we fail to bring in a deeper central mid.
This is just a thought but I reckon we could safely rely on that front four to create and with Rooneys work rate have enough defensive cover without losing the link to attack.
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Am I reading this wrong or are you proposing a 3 man midfield AND 4 attackers? By any chance are you Marcelo Bielsa?
 
I still think we should go 433 with Mata at the tip of the three and with Rooney and Januzaj as the attackers flanking Van Persie.

Mata would create chances for them all game long. Rooney is fitter, better defensively and a better finisher than Mata. He's great at cutting inside and whipping crosses in, too. It would mean that our wider players still have a semblance of pace. However, their movement would differ in that they make a lot more runs in behind defences. I wanted this to happen earlier in the season, yet the arrival of Mata has just exacerbated this desire. Get him the ball in the centre and this front three could score for fun:

Januzaj Mata Rooney
Van Persie
 
DDG
JONES SMALLING EVANS
RAFAEL EVRA
FELLAINI CARRICK

MATA

RVP ROONEY



Rooney RVP and Mata pretty much have free roles when attacking, but Mata will stay just in the hole while the strikers will stretch the defence wide and over the top. Rooney if need's be can drop deep and find space how he likes.

Rafael and evra can easily provide the width and overlapping abilities. They have plenty of stamina and attacking is their main strengths.

Carrick will anchor the midfield and sit deeper of the 2, while Fellaini will have licence to bomb forward and get into the box. His late runs will be important to get onto crosses, and could prove to be a real threat.

When in possesion the defence can spread wide, with Jones and Evans comfortable on the ball in wider positions. Leaving 3 at the back with Carrick screening will make us more solid to counters.

When defending we can sit back with a solid 5-2 or 4-3 formation, and as usual Rooney will drop and help screen the midfield where possible.

I think with a bit of practise this formation could work wonders for us. We have the players already, and with a few tweeks could pull it off beautifully. Gone are the days IMO of wingers being key, and this formation would help us keep possession, but also be strong in attack and defence.
 
I would actually like to see something like this (if Everybody is fit and available):

-----------------DDG--------------------
Rafael-----Jones-------Evans-------Evra
----------------Fletcher-----------------
---------Mata------------Rooney-------
Valencia----------RVP------------Januzaj

Maybay a tat too attacking but I think it could work, definitely versus some off the smaller teams. If we need a little bit more power on the midfield I'd play like this:

-----------------DDG--------------------
Rafael-----Jones-------Evans--------Evra
----------Fletcher----Fellaini------------
Mata-----------Rooney----------Januzaj
-----------------RVP--------------------

(If Rooney or RVP aren't fir or aren't on the pitch, Mata in the hole ofcourse)
 
Left, right, center won't really matter if we change to a narrow system which I can see. All of Kagawa, Rooney, Januzaj, RVP and Mata prefer a narrow system and that's almost all of our attackers there.

It would be very ridiculous if we need to play a hug the touchline and cross system when 4 of those players start together with their level of technique and ability to pass the ball in tight spaces.
 
For me, there are two primary lineups - with RVP, or without RVP.

with RVP;

-------------------RVP
Mata------------Rooney----------Januzaj/Nani

without RVP;

---------------Rooney
Mata----------Kagawa-------------Januzaj/Nani

Pretty straightforward really. I feel Kagawa has a role to play and with the right players around him - players like Mata, Rooney and Januzaj (rather than Young and Valencia) he will thrive. Mata is the better of the two without doubt (at least in the PL), but Mata is also far more effective out wide relative to behind the striker. Kagawa seems to struggle out wide, but every time I have seen him in a central role he has done well. Plus its not like the above positions would be rigid anyway, there is a lot of interchanging and fluidity in either of those systems.

Regarding Kagawa, I saw a post from a (I think) Dortmund fan about him which I thought summed him up very well. If you think of team performance as a number (eg 1-100), Kagawa is almost like a multiplier, rather than a static figure. When he is playing with players who are on a different wavelength to him (as has often been the case) he is ineffective. When he has creative players around him with good movement and technique, I think we will see the best of him. If Rooney is signing a new contract then I still suspect Kagawa may be sold, but I feel he should be given a run in the team alongside Mata and Rooney, and have a chance to prove his worth. Certainly if he CANT perform with these sorts of players around him, then he is a lost cause.

Needless to say, the sooner we can ship out Young, the better. Valencia I would keep AS A BACKUP, and I would look at playing him more at RB as cover for Rafael, I think he could actually do quite well in that position against weaker teams, and would provide excellent width with a "cutting in" winger in front of him.

Going back to Mata, I think he will excel anywhere if he is given the freedom to play his natural game, and has creative players around him. Moyes is saying all the right things about wanting to play exciting football and that we have lacked creativity, I just hope that on Tuesday night we line up without Young or Valencia as that will be the true statement to say that we are moving forwards as a team.

RVP, Rooney, Mata, Kagawa, Januzaj, Nani, Hernandez and Welbeck should form the core of our attack every game from now on in my opinion - there is ample quality, creativity and squad depth within that group of players to win the league (not this season obviously) and it is on a par with any other squad in the world, for me. I think that with Carrick, Fletcher and Fellaini as the holding CMs that we can actually start to look like a team again. LB and CM remain the priorities for reinforcements however, imagine;

-------------De Gea
Rafael - Smalling - Evans - Coentrao
-------Vidal--------Carrick
Januzaj-----Rooney--------Mata
-------------RVP

That is a strong team and that is with two fairly realistic signings. If I posted that a week ago people would laugh off the notion of us signing Mata - he would be the muppet signing of the three. Well we have signed him and could even still secure Coentrao by the end of the window. If so then we suddenly look very strong going forward.
 
It will be awesome if Nani can return to the level he was pre all the injuries. Would give us the option of having Rooney, Mata and Kagawa/Januzaj all playing more centrally in behind Rvp and allow Nani space out wide to operate or come inside and link up with the others which he is definitely capable of doing.
 
Apologies for the speculative ramble that follows, and no, I haven't thought this through.

How about an Ancelotti Christmas Tree - yes, I know it's in his DNA not United's, but it's interesting watching Madrid learning how to play it (formations are always easier to see when a team's still learning it). They're using Modric, Alonso, Di Maria as the 3, Bale and Ronaldo as the 2, Benzema up top.

So, Mata and Rooney behind RvP, with plenty of chances for Januzaj to come in for injuries, rotation, subs.

The 3's trickier of course but I guess a Carrick, plus 2 of Fletcher, Cleverley, Giggs, Valencia, and maybe even Kagawa (in the light of the other thread that's running) would be a start.
 
jojojo said:
Apologies for the speculative ramble that follows, and no, I haven't thought this through.

How about an Ancelotti Christmas Tree - yes, I know it's in his DNA not United's, but it's interesting watching Madrid learning how to play it (formations are always easier to see when a team's still learning it). They're using Modric, Alonso, Di Maria as the 3, Bale and Ronaldo as the 2, Benzema up top.

So, Mata and Rooney behind RvP, with plenty of chances for Januzaj to come in for injuries, rotation, subs.

The 3's trickier of course but I guess a Carrick, plus 2 of Fletcher, Cleverley, Giggs, Valencia, and maybe even Kagawa (in the light of the other thread that's running) would be a start.
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I'm not sold on Ancelott's christmas tree. It looks like it's starting to work really well in the league, but from what I've seen most Spanish teams play very narrow at the moment. Defending the wings in that 4321 really is a problem, imo, and I have doubts that Real's fullbacks can handle the pressure against a team that attacks a lot from out wide and that their midfielders are capable of constant movement out wide to provide cover without loosing a solid defensive shape.

Even if we assume that Ancelotti actually makes it work, he's certainly the perfect coach to drill the necessary movement in defense into all the players, Real has the huge advantage that the 2 behind the striker are naturally wide players who can provide width and Benzema is a striker who moves wide as well. The christmas tree is a wonderful way to get the best out of those 3 attackers, I don't think it fits Rooney or van Persie in the same way.
 
Balu said:
I'm not sold on Ancelott's christmas tree. It looks like it's starting to work really well in the league, but from what I've seen most Spanish teams play very narrow at the moment. Defending the wings in that 4321 really is a problem, imo, and I have doubts that Real's fullbacks can handle the pressure against a team that attacks a lot from out wide and that their midfielders are capable of constant movement out wide to provide cover without loosing a solid defensive shape.

Even if we assume that Ancelotti actually makes it work, he's certainly the perfect coach to drill the necessary movement in defense into all the players, Real has the huge advantage that the 2 behind the striker are naturally wide players who can provide width and Benzema is a striker who moves wide as well. The christmas tree is a wonderful way to get the best out of those 3 attackers, I don't think it fits Rooney or van Persie in the same way.
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Good point, Ron and Bale have more pace than any of our attackers who are less suited to play in that way. Maybe Januzaj and Mata at a stretch but Mata didn't really work well in a similar formation at Chelsea did he?
 
That's what I mean about it being interesting watching Madrid learn it. It's not yet got that familiarity of movement that makes all the interchanging look natural. You can see them consciously looking for each others positions and moving to their places. Ronaldo goes wide, Di Maria drifts inside. Ronaldo moves into the middle and Di Maria takes a position where he can work with Marcelo. Di Maria goes forward, Ronaldo pulls back.

If we did it, I'd imagine us using a couple of players capable of playing wide in midfield - Valencia, Giggs, even Fletcher and Kagawa could do that.

On the other hand, we're getting some new toys soon, so ...
 
Be interesting to see how The Juan fits in with our 'pass and stand still' style of play...he and Kagawa will be bitchin'
 
I agree that it's interesting to watch Ancelotti work at Madrid. With all the focus on playing narrow, pressing, it might be a brilliant tactical move to just go back to what made his Milan teams in the last decade so great. Strong defense with great understanding and movement when not in possession and counter over the whole pitch to use Bale and Ronaldo to their full devastating effect. It would really be a nice turnaround in the tactical development of the game.

But somehow I really really doubt that Ancelotti can turn the centerbacks and fullbacks available in such perfect and smart defenders, he needed at Milan to make it work against the best teams in the world. It's definitely a great fit to the Spanish league though, no doubt.
 
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