I don't think that the manager needs to assess on details our player before realizing that Young and Valencia are completely shit and much worse than Nani, Chicha and Kagawa. You just need to have an eye or two to see that.
Shinji Kagawa
- Thread starter Baby Faced Assassin
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
- Status
Young was the worst player in the pitch IMO today. In the game when Carrick had a shocker. And Cleverley played. How he was good.
He was okay last performance and in the other game he scored a screamer was very shit but the goal masked his performance. He has been painful to watch in the last 2 years. He still somehow gets chosen for many games.
We can all see it, but unfortunately we have a person who can't in charge, and according to top r*ds, the United way mean we're not allowed to sack him, people suggesting otherwise should support City or Chelsea, or something like that...
Yes today he was shit. And yes overall he is still classed as deadwood. But what I'm saying is if he wasn't sold and kept as a squad player, it's not the end of the world. We have worse that need replacing, such as Valencia.
It's not about being a top red - those who say we shouldn't sack him because it's the united way are idiots. But having an opinion that Moyes may come good in time and thus we should not sack him yet is not the same.
Edit: LOL I can't believe that phrase is starred! That's made my day that has.
Unfortunately with Moyes in charge, the likes of Chicharito, Kagawa and Nani will be cleared out and Valenica or Young will still be starting most the games.
I honestly cannot see anything in Moyes' CV or things he's done so far at United that suggest the "may" is at all likely to happen.
Valencia isn't worse than Young IMO. At-least he can keep the ball (as long as he doesn't cross it), offers something defensively and links well with Rafael.
Why should Young be kept as a squad player, while Nani/Kagawa who are infinitely better to be sold. We know that the decision will be between them and someone will go. Shouldn't we keep the best ones and sell the shitty ones.
What does Young (except nervousism for supporters) offers?
I don't disagree with you. I'd be lying if I said I didn't think Moyes could do it, because I think he can. But I certainly can't point to anything to back that up. Or say it's based on any kind of sound factual information. Or say its logical.
It's just a gut feeling I have. I could very well be wrong - but doesn't make me a shit United fan to have that opinion, does it?
Obviously I don't disagree with you here - of course Nani and Kagawa should be staying. But if you're asking me who I'd rather keep from Young and Valencia the answer is Young. There was a time when I'd say Valencia but he is so one footed it drives me nuts. That and we used to say he does a job defensively but he doesn't even do that anymore.
In an ideal world they'd both go but it's hard to see them both leaving in one summer. We have too many other places to fix for him to cull two wide men.
Surely two of the attacking players will go this summer. Maybe even three. Unfortunately I think it will be between Kagawa, Nani and Chicharito which is sad considering how much better they are than Young and Valencia.
Not at all, I'm more than happy to respect others have their opinion whilst disagreeing with them.
I'm just fed up with the top r*ds saying it's the United way to never sack underperforming managers and telling people who are fed up with the current shittiness to support Chelsea.
Yeah of course it's completely irrelevant. After all, there are only some comments here blaming Moyes for playing him out of position as if he's the only manager ever to make such an error. But you know, it's completely irrelevant of course that Fergie did the same.
Stupid fecking me.
Agree with that. We have a tradition of supporting our managers and that means we probably have a greater tolerance during bad patches, but there will still always be a line. Where each of us place that line is different but if the line is breached he should be sacked. Anyone who thinks that line doesn't exist are idiots
If they are sold and at least one of Young / Valencia isn't then ill probably turn emo.
Unless you are going to contextualise Fergie's use of Kagawa and the probability of such continuing during a second season in England, yes i do question the relevance of that comparison in these present circumstances.
I really can't fathom why Kagawa isn't featuring more often since his performance against Swansea. It's probably understandable that he didn't start against Stoke given Young played reasonably well against Cardiff and Moyes wants to deploy the trio of van Persie, Rooney and Mata immediately. But he's deserved just as much of an opportunity as Valencia and Young who very rarely warrant a starting place.
And when you hear of Moyes supposed 'vision' of the team and what he built at Everton in his latter years, he had favouritism towards wide midfielders drifting infield, yet he is still persisting with Young and Valencia despite having flair players at his disposal and players capable of creating a fluid and flexible front four in the final third.
I am by no means suggesting Moyes is modern in his tactical ideologies, but he did seem to progress Everton's style and has come around to the concept of football being won in midfield even though he was and is still pragmatic and played very direct football with Everton. In that sense, it is strange to see him not straying from orthodox wingers when he didn't use them at Everton and he has a higher calibre of flair players to work with here.
Kagawa could still be key if deployed right and under an innovative, tactically apt manager I could see him combining to great effect in the final third along with Mata, Rooney and van Persie. He's shied away from responsibility on the ball too often and seems physically overpowered in this league, but a flexible system could still work for him if he played centrally or even on the left.
Unfortunately his chances will be limited in his best position - rightly so, really - and given our current football that doesn't look like improving anytime soon, I just can't really see him working out here. From a personal perspective, a career move would probably revitalise his career.
And when you hear of Moyes supposed 'vision' of the team and what he built at Everton in his latter years, he had favouritism towards wide midfielders drifting infield, yet he is still persisting with Young and Valencia despite having flair players at his disposal and players capable of creating a fluid and flexible front four in the final third.
I am by no means suggesting Moyes is modern in his tactical ideologies, but he did seem to progress Everton's style and has come around to the concept of football being won in midfield even though he was and is still pragmatic and played very direct football with Everton. In that sense, it is strange to see him not straying from orthodox wingers when he didn't use them at Everton and he has a higher calibre of flair players to work with here.
Kagawa could still be key if deployed right and under an innovative, tactically apt manager I could see him combining to great effect in the final third along with Mata, Rooney and van Persie. He's shied away from responsibility on the ball too often and seems physically overpowered in this league, but a flexible system could still work for him if he played centrally or even on the left.
Unfortunately his chances will be limited in his best position - rightly so, really - and given our current football that doesn't look like improving anytime soon, I just can't really see him working out here. From a personal perspective, a career move would probably revitalise his career.
An interchanging front 3 of Kagawa, Mata, and Rooney supplying RVP is a quality proposition if deployed in the right manner.
Moyes is not the right manager to deploy them in such an effective formation. He'd stick with his ridiculous 442 crap.
Klopp must see a shrink every weekend to discuss the Kagawa situation....and soon I'll be joining him.
Kagawa will be sold in the summer if Moyes is still the manager imo.
It's not the formation, it's just his fecktard decisions regardless of formation.
I think Kagawa is gone no matter who our manager is. Before he had Rooney ahead of him in that position and it was hard enough but now Mata is here as well. It's a shame because when he was been given a chance in his proper position he's look decent. If he'd been given a proper run of games then maybe we might have seen some form from him.
That is more and more likely. He rather plays Valencia and Young as out and out wingers. Moyes is just not the right manager to implement a free flowing, fast football system.
Yesterday, I thought with Kagawa on the left we could have kept the ball on the floor (and not hoofing against the wind and Stoke) and play some fast attacking football.
I dont see why Mata's arrival should change anything. Kagawa was never going to wrest the no 10 spot from Rooney, if he made it here, it'd be as a more central wide left player. That spot hasnt been affected by Mata's arrival.
Our play is still focused on wide play and crosses. Even when up against giants in windy conditions. No place for a Kagawa in that system.
Moyes made it pretty clear in the interview that he values getting to the byline, Kagawa is not a player who'd do it on a consistent basis.
If Rooney is not playing in that central spot, then Mata is likely to be playing there. It's the position where he's looked best in for us and where he is most suited to. If he has very little hope there I can see him wanting to move, whether the club want him to stay or not.
When all 3 are fit, it'l always be Rooney behind RVP with Mata slightly wide on either side. And I dont think we'd try and hold on him to him too bad if he wants to go. He's not that important to us now. Not the way we play atleast.
It's actually a little sad how true this is and shows how inept moyes is, that he prefers defensive wingers with no talent over our attacking creative ones like kagawa and nani. The longer this guy is in charge the longer it'll take to come back really.Unfortunately with Moyes in charge, the likes of Chicharito, Kagawa and Nani will be cleared out and Valenica or Young will still be starting most the games.
Let's hope he does get sacked at the end of the season and the new manager manages to convince kagawa and nani to stay, because januzaj, mata, kagawa and nani can all form brilliant partnerships together and play some great football.
The problem is kagawa still hasn't asserted himself on the game properly at all, apart from 1 or 2 performances.
Look at how Mata has come straight into the team and looked effective pretty much straight away. Kagawa seems to want too much time on the ball and ends up getting shut down, then loses the ball as he's so weak.
If he can put in some decent performances and look threatening then he will get his chance, but even against Swansea he missed a sitter. When you aren't in favour you need to take your chance.
Look at how Mata has come straight into the team and looked effective pretty much straight away. Kagawa seems to want too much time on the ball and ends up getting shut down, then loses the ball as he's so weak.
If he can put in some decent performances and look threatening then he will get his chance, but even against Swansea he missed a sitter. When you aren't in favour you need to take your chance.
This is my concern too. It is hard to see Kagawa and Nani staying given the way they've been treated. Shame because they are the sort of players that could enable us to compete at the highest level.
The central player in BVB latest league triumph (a team better than this United) who is adored by Klopp, is not good enough to even make the bench for Moyes. And has to watch Young/Valencia play in consistent basis.
Does seriously anyone believe that this player isn't good enough for us? Or maybe he simply is being mismanaged?
Does seriously anyone believe that this player isn't good enough for us? Or maybe he simply is being mismanaged?
Look at all the off the ball movement in that video... We haven't seen that at United consistently since our little run at the start of 11/12. We had bits and pieces of it last season but not consistently. This season there's been nothing other then the leverkusen game that Shinji was at the heart of. Can't believe that we'll end up getting rid of a player like him for probably very little money just because our manager is a tactical dinosaur and can't find a way to make our talented players work well together.
Edit: He didn't even have that bad of a first season which a lot of people seem to forget. He started off really well then got injured for a few months, and then came back and struggled a little bit but then he finished the season really strongly. He hasn't been great this season when he has played but he hasn't been bad. He's been decent most of the time and when you compare him to young and Valencia who have been terrible most of the time, he's been better. Unfortunately he seems to need to do a lot more to get into the team and probably needs to like score 2 goals and have a MotM performance to actually stay in the team, but Young and Valencia just have to exist to get in.
Last edited:
Before people attack you by saying things like "a youtube video proves nothing", I'll just add the the dry facts so that we don't end up discussing in circle again:
1. POTM August.
2. Started roughly 75% of the time he wasn't injured, which clearly makes him a regular in Fergie's starting XI.
3. 4th best goals/assist ratio in the team if we go by minutes played. And the 5th place isn't even close. If we only focus on PL and CL football(the two biggest tournaments), then he's almost just as good as Hazard. Most likely better if we take away Hazard's penalty goals.
4. Almost 90% passing accuracy, which was the third best in the team.
5. Highest average of successful through-balls per game.
6. The best BEEP-test scores since Beckham(i.e. insane stamina).
This is all in addition to the sexy moves in the video compilation above. The only other player who could have gotten an equally or more impressive compilation, is RVP. People can say what they want about Kagawa's first season, but if you honestly think he's been around the same level under Moyes, then you simply don't understand football. His level has clearly dropped. And while some of the blame must be placed on Kagawa himself, it's definitely no secret that Moyes is the elephant in the room. Kagawa is no longer a (almost)sure starter. He's no longer the clear second choice in the AM position. And to top it off, we're playing much worse football, with less movement and bravery going forward. Looking at these 3 things combined, it's no wonder Kagawa has been mediocre overall(though he's been really good in the CL. One of our best performers there).
Big difference, though.
Kagawa: 2011-2012
- Turning 23 and still in the early stages of his professional career.
- The key man for a double-winning German side that was definitely better than United back then.
Valencia: 2011-2012:
- Turning 27 and most definitely in his prime. He had the best season of his life by far, and hasn't been even close to performing on the same level before and since
- Playing for an "average" United side that flopped in Europe and dropped a massive bollock in the league, losing the title to City.
Agreed. Last season, although he wasn't always first choice throughout the season, you still always got the feeling that Sir Alex intended on using him as first choice long term, and that he fully trusted him. That also proved to be the case at the start of the season and the last 2 months of the season where Kagawa became a key player, starting every week and having our play go through him. Sometimes that feeling makes a huge difference.
This season, since Moyes took over, everyone had a feeling that Moyes didn't really value Kagawa. He hasn't been great this season, but then again, apart from Rooney and Januzaj, nobody has been. He's been better then Valencia and Young most of the time as well, but needs to do a lot more then either of them to get into the team which just shows Moyes doesn't like him.
With the inclusion of Mata now, even with a top manager I'm not sure he'd get into our starting 11 at the moment, but he'd definitely be playing a lot better and being moved in and out and getting plenty of games, probably competing with Januzaj, or rotating with the forwards. Whatever the case, put Pep, Klopp, or most other top european managers in charge, and their key players in the attack would be Rooney, Van Persie, Mata, kagawa and januzaj. Valencia I think would get plenty of games too because he's good defensively and is a beast physically, and is useful to use as an out ball, but players like Young just wouldn't be used. Kagawa's failing this season is mostly down to Moyes for using a shit system, and a small part down to Kagawa for not taking charge more often and trying to make things happen and get involved (even though he does that, but the ball doesn't get to him quick enough or eventually when he does get it, the whole play already slowed down and the potential chance is gone).
I really hope something drastically changes and Moyes gives him a chance next to Mata and Januzaj in the attack, and we start playing some quick football with movement off the ball because he would thrive with players of that intelligence around him, just like he did when he had Lewandowski in front, Gotze next to him and Sahin/Gundogan behind him. At United for the most part when he's played behind the striker he's had RVP/Rooney in front (okay this is a good, like for like change), but then Valencia and Young on the wings and Carrick/Jones/Cleverley behind him. Hardly inspires movement and good football. Even lately when he's played alongside Januzaj he was looking a lot better but Moyes kept taking him off despite him playing well. Probably because he didn't sprint down to the byline and cross it in at every opportunity.
If Moyes can't find a place to fit kagawa, he doesn't deserve mata.
- Status