Shinji Kagawa

[Revan]

Though outstanding, Dortmund's pressing isn't nearly as powerful if you take away the technical and creative forces.

Playing with Rooney in the AM role is essentially the same as playing 4-4-2. I just don't see Dortmund being nearly as powerful in that setup. They need players like Kagawa, Reus and Götze in order to play Klopp's football to perfection.

Exactly. With Gotze leaving, Klopp went for another attcking midfielder, not for a striker. Rooney is a great player (surely better than Kagawa) but with him on pitch it is always between 4-4-2 and 4-5-1 (assuming that he is playing as No.10) which personally I think it doesn't suit as much Dortmund's style of play (though likely it would be still good). And Kagawa is miles better than Rooney at doing pressure, and dare I say, has also more intelligent movings.

Rooney is basically better in everything else (well, bar first touch) and a better player but for that system, I think Klopp would have preferred Kagawa.

 

[Mainoldo]

I repeat if Klopp took over us right now. Kagawa would be on the bench.

 

[SATA]

The central player in BVB latest league triumph (a team better than this United) who is adored by Klopp, is not good enough to even make the bench for Moyes. And has to watch Young/Valencia play in consistent basis.



Does seriously anyone believe that this player isn't good enough for us? Or maybe he simply is being mismanaged?

This clip has none of the 'Dortmund plays him on the left as a winger' bollocks. We are clearly using him the wrong way

 

[Kaos]

The best thing that could happen now would be for Young and Valencia to get injured.

Moyes would probably just play Welbeck and Cleverley on the flanks.

 

[Balu]

Though outstanding, Dortmund's pressing isn't nearly as powerful if you take away the technical and creative forces.

Playing with Rooney in the AM role is essentially the same as playing 4-4-2. I just don't see Dortmund being nearly as powerful in that setup. They need players like Kagawa, Reus and Götze in order to play Klopp's football to perfection.

You focus way too much on that 4-4-2 thing. Dortmund are often pressing in a 4-4-2 with the AM joining the striker upfront and two banks of four behind, which then changes into something asymetrical when they force the opponent on one of the wings and they start their ball hunting. And the way the attacking players move when they counterattack often looks like a 424 formation in the final third, because the AM is already level with the striker when one of the midfielders wins the ball back. That's a key part of their game and Kagawa excelled in that system, he played significantly higher up the pitch than both wide players and could therefore make himself available around the penalty area all the time with the other attacking midfielders running towards goal. Of course he's a different player than Rooney, but the idea that Rooney couldn't play as the AM/2nd striker in that kind of football seems wrong to me. In possession, Kagawa dropped deeper than Rooney usually does, but that rarely was Dortmund's most likely way to goal and Hummels playing long balls to the wings was probably more crucial to their success than building up through Kagawa in the middle. And even in Kagawa's best period, the one doing most of the work in the build-up through the center was an outstanding Gündogan and it was more a 4-4-1-1 with Kuba and Großkreutz being more wide midfielders than wingers.

For example from a German football blog, but it should be pretty accurate for Dortmund in the second half of the 2011/12 season, which clearly was Kagawa's peak so far in his career:

Spoiler

Dortmund's tactical starting formation in their 1-0 win against Bayern in the second half of 2012:

and in defense:

I wasn't really different in the 5-2 cup final win.

I told you before, fix everything around that number 10 position and both Rooney and Kagawa will succeed, just in a different way. The player in that position doesn't dictate the style of football the team plays and won't lift everyone around them to a more beautiful way of playing. Mata won't either. It's a bit ridiculous how you blame Rooney in that position for all the problems, makes no sense to me.

 

[B20]

Is Kagawa pumping crosses into the box when played wide? No. So why should he play?

Mata may have been spoonfed "continental" football for years, but at least have gave the cross pump a good go when played wide against Stoke. That should see him get another start, so long as he he tracks back.

 

[Mad Winger]

You focus way too much on that 4-4-2 thing.

Like I've said before: it's not the formation on the team sheet that decides the formation. It's the role of the players that decide this. Rooney is primarily a goalscorer, and his whole game is centered around it. He's not an offensive playmaker, and he'll never be. His high number of assists only reflect a high number of rebounds, set pieces, and fighting inside the box more than anything.

Since Rooney is a goalscorer, playing with him behind the main striker is more like playing typical 4-4-2 than it is 4-2-3-1. It's all semantics and interpretation, really. When I hear 4-2-3-1, I immediately assume that the player behind the main striker is an offensive playmaker. I'm thinking of Mata, Oscar, Kagawa, Özil, Isco, Iniesta, Reus, Götze etc etc. When I hear 4-4-2, I think of Rooney, Agüero, Tevez, Suarez etc.

But ignoring the whole formation debate, it's still clear as day that Rooney and Kagawa have extremely different styles. Kagawa was perfect for Dortmund, and a keyman in their attacks. Klopp adores him, and wants to play the type of football where players like him can thrive. Thus I find it hard to believe that Klopp would have played Rooney in the AM role in team that has Kagawa(or Mata for that matter).

It's a bit ridiculous how you blame Rooney in that position for all the problems, makes no sense to me.

I'm not blaming Rooney. He's a constant goal threat, so he's doing his job. I'm simply saying that he's not an offensive playmaker. Using Kagawa instead, unlocks certain possibilities that didn't exist with Rooney in that position. It obviously goes the other way around as well. Rooney offers a lot that Kagawa doesn't offer. But it is my subjective opinion that we would be better off long-term by playing Kagawa in the hole, and have Rooney either fight with RVP for the striker position, or move out as a wide left forward.

I can't say for sure that we'd be better off like this(especially with Moyes' style). But if we tweaked our style a bit, then I'm sure Kagawa(or Mata) is the future. If we tried to implement Klopp's style, then I don't doubt it for a second. Rooney is world class, but some styles suit him better than other styles. In Klopp's system, I'm sure he would have been used as a targetman or a wide forward.

 

[Revan]

Is Kagawa pumping crosses into the box when played wide? No. So why should he play?

Mata may have been spoonfed "continental" football for years, but at least have gave the cross pump a good go when played wide against Stoke. That should see him get another start, so long as he he tracks back.

You're really enjoying this

 

[Red Stone]

Valencia and Young doesn't even look good on the ball. I'd love to see a Mata-Rooney-Kagawa swapping positions and supporting RvP. Young or Valencia is not in the same wavelength as Kagawa, and its a hindrance to our play. There was a moment in the Swansea game that shows how bad it is. He had to wait long too long for Valencia to make that run, because Valencia was looking for a pass towards the wing. Had Kagawa passed it to the wing, it'd have been another failed cross from Valencia.



I hope David Moyes play him often.

This is what I said immediately after that game:

The ball he slipped into the box for Valencia sums it up, really. He gets the ball and holds it for ages because Valencia is incapable of moving in from the flank. As soon as the run comes - about five seconds too late - Kagawa pokes the ball through and Valencia is in a dangerous position.

If all of our players could make those runs instinctively instead of Kagawa basically having to tell them five times where he wants them to move our play would become so much quicker. No-one else in our team has the ability to receive a pass, turn on the ball and release it as quickly as Kagawa does, but he needs to have players making those runs to get the most out of him. Januzaj knows where to run and our play looked really good down the left. Valencia is crap and we just stopped using the right altogether. If the team can work on making the movement more fluent and Kagawa gets a couple of games (and hopefully a goal or two) to build his confidence and get back to where he was last season, we could actually start to look like a decent side on a consistent basis.

That was before we signed Mata. It should be even easier to accomodate a player like Kagawa now. Watching highlights from Mata's first two seasons at Chelsea he carved open countless defences by passing and running into space to receive the return. Mata is absolutely brilliant at instigating attacking movements and making smart runs off the ball and Kagawa loves a player like that. Kagawa would thrive alongside him and Januzaj if they're given the freedom to play their natural game.

In addition - and totally irrelevant to the rest of this post, it's baffling that people are slagging off Kagawa and saying he hasn't been good enough. He hasn't been great, but then again, none of our attacking midfielders bar Januzaj and - if you count him as an AM - Rooney have been. Kagawa has had a lot of appearances this season playing on the wing in a side that for the most part plays hoofball with a focus on crossing. That's pretty much the opposite style of play to what we should be playing to get the best out of Kagawa. Welbeck looked much better once he was played in his favourite position and got a couple of goals. I can only imagine that his confidence was completely shot after over a year of being shoehorned into the team and dozens of missed chances. Why doesn't this apply to Kagawa? He's been shown close to zero faith by Moyes, who plays him on the left wing for the most part, and subs him off or moves him out of position early on in matches where he is played behind the striker. If he looks good in a match, he doesn't even start the next match. It's shameful how Moyes is mis-managing him, and Moyes himself needs to take a large part of the blame for Kagawa's performances.

I hope we see Kagawa get an extended run in the team alongside players he can play good football with, like van Persie, Mata and Januzaj. The clip above shows the difference in Kagawa and Valencia's approach to the game, while we saw how well Kagawa and Januzaj worked together in that match. It was by far our most convincing win in the league since the opener, also against Swansea. Instead of trying to "make it hard" for bottom-half sides, lets go out all guns a-blazing for once and field a team that can move the ball around in the middle of the pitch instead of just pumping mis-hit crosses at a striker who plays much, much better with his feet than his head anyway.

I sincerely believe Kagawa has what it takes. He hasn't been given a proper run, and for a player who's still quite new to the team and had an injury-ridden first season, he deserves a chance to regain any sort of confidence. He looked very good at the end of last season and contributed a lot more than our wingers despite playing less. Instead of trying him out in a team that suits him, Moyes seems to be set on destroying his spirits by leaving him out despite good performances and putting him in teams obviously not suited to his style of play. Selling Kagawa without at least giving him a proper chance would be a mistake. I have no doubt that he will play very well for the team that picks him up if we let him go. He's too good at football not to.

 

[Cal?]

You're really enjoying this

I'd be too in his position.

Incidently, have the ABUs come up with a good acronym for Keep Moyes at United yet?

 

[charleysurf]

Kagawa has been a huge disappointment. The fanboys on here still painting him as a saviour figure is just sad. He needs to be flogged in the summer while some decent money is still possible for him. If the fanboys follow him that's just a bonus.

 

[charleysurf]

The best thing that could happen now would be for Young and Valencia to get injured.

Wanting United players to be injured. Beyond parody. Wow, RAWK looks more suitable for so many on here. Roll on the muppet exodus.

 

[B20]

I'd be too in his position.

Incidently, have the ABUs come up with a good acronym for Keep Moyes at United yet?

<---- See Location

 

[Cal?]

<---- See Location

Not bad, but doesn't quite have the ring of KRAP, it's also fails to specify not go where...

 

[girish]

Kagawa has been a huge disappointment. The fanboys on here still painting him as a saviour figure is just sad. He needs to be flogged in the summer while some decent money is still possible for him. If the fanboys follow him that's just a bonus.

He's no more than a disappointment compared to Young and Valencia. And unlike them he's played out of position almost all the time. We've been lauding the signing of Mata as our savior, while we have a player of Kagawa's quality on our bench, unused. It's just bad management of a good player. Like Berbatov in his last season here.

 

[charleysurf]

He's no more than a disappointment compared to Young and Valencia. And unlike them he's played out of position almost all the time. We've been lauding the signing of Mata as our savior, while we have a player of Kagawa's quality on our bench, unused. It's just bad management of a good player. Like Berbatov in his last season here.

Kagawa has had chances to show this alleged quality in English football. He's not done it. And Berbatov is not a helpful comparison to your case.

 

[Cal?]

Kagawa has had chances to show this alleged quality in English football. He's not done it. And Berbatov is not a helpful comparison to your case.

Kagawa has constantly been more effective than Young or Valencia whenever he played regularly.

 

[girish]

In is first season, he was impressive; not in a world beating proportions obviously. And this season he was just badly managed and overlooked.

 

[charleysurf]

Kagawa has constantly been more effective than Young or Valencia whenever he played regularly.

All this rubbish goes quiet when he actually plays and stinks up the pitch again. Then when he doesn't play he's better than Rooney again!
It's fecking hilarious.

 

[Cal?]

All this rubbish goes quiet when he actually plays and stinks up the pitch again. Then when he doesn't play he's better than Rooney again!
It's fecking hilarious.

Our 4th highest scorer last season even during an injury disrupted campaign. Read the article and weep if you think Young or Valencia are better players.

He's criminally badly managed by our so called manager.

2012-2013 - The Japanese international made 20 appearances (17 starts) for the Red Devils during their title-winning campaign. He bagged six goals, which was the fourth highest total on the squad behind Robin van Persie (26), Wayne Rooney (12) and Javier Hernandez (10). No other player scored more than five goals during Manchester United’s English campaign.

In regards to Manchester United, Kagawa was near the mean in terms of shots per match, firing off 1.1 per 90 minutes. Robin van Persie shot the ball most often for, with one of the top totals in the Premier League—3.7 per match.

While Kagawa may not have shot too frequently, he was certainly accurate when doing so.Kagawa registered a 75 percent accuracy rate, not too shabby at all.

Perhaps Kagawa’s most impressive statistic was his pass success rate. The former Dortmund man completed the third highest percentage of his passes on United during the 2012-13 season, connecting 89.7 percent of his 834 total pass attempts.

Only the legend Paul Scholes (92.4 percent) and Tom Cleverley (90.2 percent) were more accurate than Kagawa during the 2012-13 English Premier League season.

He averaged one key pass per match, which was the sixth highest total on the team.

With assists, too, Kagawa was near average for the Red Devils, dishing out three total assists, tied for seventh. Wayne Rooney was United’s most frequent assister, contributing ten during the season.

 

[Mad Winger]

Kagawa has constantly been more effective than Young or Valencia whenever he played regularly.

Just give up... Some posters refuse to take that argument seriously, even though that argument alone should be enough to just kill the whole debate.

In my opinion, Kagawa has been better than Valencia and Young even under Moyes, because he's been one of our better performers in the CL, which is the only tournament we've done well in.

 

[Cal?]

Just give up... Some posters refuse to take that argument serously, even though that argument alone should be enough to just kill the whole debate.

In my opinion, Kagawa has been better than Valencia and Young even under Moyes, because he's been one of our better performers in the CL, which is the only tournament we've done well in.

Some people are so far up Moyes' ass they'd soon be saying it's Van Persie's fault we're in this current predicament.

 

[charleysurf]

oh my lord, these Kagawa fanboys are going to be a loss to the forum when the summer comes

 

[B20]

Not bad, but doesn't quite have the ring of KRAP, it's also fails to specify not go where...

I've been wrecking my head with this one. Not easy. M.O.N.G is the best I've come up with so far.

Moyes Earnestly Should Stay (M.E.S.S.) was my second choice and it's a bit tame.

 

[Cal?]

I've been wrecking my head with this one. Not easy. M.O.N.G is the best I've come up with so far.

Moyes Earnestly Should Stay (M.E.S.S.) was my second choice and it's a bit tame.

Well, good luck finding a better one, hope you enjoy it while it lasts...

 

[Mad Winger]

oh my lord, these Kagawa fanboys are going to be a loss to the forum when the summer comes

Compelling argument. The laughing smiley really is the cherry on top.

Ignore the stats. Ignore the fact that Fergie rated Kagawa and made him a part of the starting XI. Ignore the fact that Kagawa has the best stamina in the team and is one of our hardest workers. Ignore the fact that Moyes doesn't play Kagawa half as often as Fergie did. Ignore the fact that we've become even more static and dependent on width under Moyes. Ignore the fact that Kagawa's level dropped significantly under Moyes. Ignore the sweet compilation videos that clearly shows that Kagawa is our most technical player, only really challenged by RVP(and now Mata).

 

[B20]

I really don't see the hard work from Kagawa.

Kuyt, Park, Suarez. These were/are hard workers. Kagawa doesn't begin to compare to the effort these put in.

 

[charleysurf]

Compelling argument. The laughing smiley really is the cherry on top.

Ignore the stats. Ignore the fact that Fergie rated Kagawa and made him a part of the starting XI. Ignore the fact that Kagawa has the best stamina in the team and is one of our hardest workers. Ignore the fact that Moyes doesn't play Kagawa half as often as Fergie did. Ignore the fact that we've become even more static and dependent on width under Moyes. Ignore the fact that Kagawa's level dropped significantly under Moyes. Ignore the sweet compilation videos that clearly shows that Kagawa is our most technical player, only really challenged by RVP(and now Mata).

oof, calm down dear. In a few months your Kagawa hell will be over. He'll be back facing the easier challenge of the Bundesliga.

 

[Red Stone]

I've been wrecking my head with this one. Not easy. M.O.N.G is the best I've come up with so far.

Moyes Earnestly Should Stay (M.E.S.S.) was my second choice and it's a bit tame.

I have one.

Dave Oughtta Get Sacked. He Is Terrible.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Young offers more than Kagawa assists and goals, yet Young I agree is shit, that sums it up.

 

[Cal?]

Compelling argument. The laughing smiley really is the cherry on top.

Ignore the stats. Ignore the fact that Fergie rated Kagawa and made him a part of the starting XI. Ignore the fact that Kagawa has the best stamina in the team and is one of our hardest workers. Ignore the fact that Moyes doesn't play Kagawa half as often as Fergie did. Ignore the fact that we've become even more static and dependent on width under Moyes. Ignore the fact that Kagawa's level dropped significantly under Moyes. Ignore the sweet compilation videos that clearly shows that Kagawa is our most technical player, only really challenged by RVP(and now Mata).

Moyes just doesn't have any idea how to use a player like Kagawa, I dread to think what he's going to turn Mata into.

 

[bosnian_red]

All this rubbish goes quiet when he actually plays and stinks up the pitch again. Then when he doesn't play he's better than Rooney again!
It's fecking hilarious.

You mean like the last few games he played, were he was one of the few who looked good and were making chances, along with januzaj? He's a much better player then Valencia or young, is a much smarter player and although he isn't been great, he's never been given a proper chance to do so. Last game against Sunderland he was our most dangerous player with adnan, yet moyes took him off cause he wasn't lumping it in at every opportunity and was making chances through the middle. The second he came off we lost all control in that game, but since then hasn't played simply because moyes doesn't like him and he's not suited to his shit style.

In fact, the only players in our team that are suited to his flat 4-4-2 are Valencia, young and Rooney.

 

[B20]

I dread to think what he's going to turn Mata into.

I imagine Moyes is salivating at the crosses and set pieces he can put in.

Though he will probably be subbed for Valencia/Young as soon as you have a lead to protect.

 

[Cal?]

I imagine Moyes is salivating at the crosses and set pieces he can put in.

Though he will probably be subbed for Valencia/Young as soon as you have a lead to protect.

Agreeing again with a Scouser.

He's stuck on the right wing in that first half against Stoke.

 

[Mad Winger]

I really don't see the hard work from Kagawa.

Kuyt, Park, Suarez. These were/are hard workers. Kagawa doesn't begin to compare to the effort these put in.

Way to pick out the hardest workers in recent football history

Levir Culpi, the man who arguably knows Kagawa the most as an athlete, stated that Kagawa's biggest strength is his constant off-the-ball movement. It's therefore no surprise that he got the best BEEP-test scores since Beckham.

Kagawa's hard work easily goes unnoticed for 2 reasons:

1) He's not aggressive. He'll rather move into clever position and try to always be available for passes. And rather than jumping into to tackles, he likes to apply pressure instead. It would be great with some added aggression obviously, but there are plenty of star players that lack this. At least Kagawa has brilliant off-the-ball movement. In this aspect, he's world class.

2) Unlike the players for Dortmund and Japan, United players stop moving after they've intercepted the ball. This sort of renders Kagawa's movement useless, as you don't see him constantly being a part of every single attack, often dictating the crucial plays.

 

[Tomuś]

It isn't nonsense at all. Moyes plays Young consistently so it is very possible that every 10 games he will make a decent appearence. Same about Valencia. That doesn't make them less shit and then people shouldn't be surprised when they play like Sunday league players. That is their standard, the good performance was the exception.

On the other side Kagawa if he's the best player in the pitch, will get dropped for the next few games. Then get reintroduced and despite being the best player in the pitch, gets substituted. And then gets dropped for another few games.

Do you know what Sunday League standards are? Have you played there? Andy Carroll is a Sunday League player.
I also like how due to Young and Valencia being non-United wing standard means Kagawa has been good for us. He hasn't and he's had games where he looked as useful as Young and Valencia in their bad form. He isn't messiah, granted he had a good second half against Swansea but if you're going by the route of players general standard, that was the exception as well. He has to prove it first, I don't buy this out of position bollocks. It shouldn't stop him from making contribution and that comes from one of his biggest fans.

The perception of Kagawa and Nani in the past, as many have pointed out already, benefit hugely from them being out of the first eleven. The myths then builds within, claiming they have been wonderful, amazing, awesome and need to get back into the team as quick as possible. When they do, however, they rarely produce to the level we want our wingers to, and the cycle continues.

I'll be first to admit that Young and Valencia have undeservedly been given plenty more chances than Nani and Kagawa but that doesn't make the latter two better players/performers than they really have been for us.

 

[Revan]

Do you know what Sunday League standards are? Have you played there? Andy Carroll is a Sunday League player.
I also like how due to Young and Valencia being non-United wing standard means Kagawa has been good for us. He hasn't and he's had games where he looked as useful as Young and Valencia in their bad form. He isn't messiah, granted he had a good second half against Swansea but if you're going by the route of players general standard, that was the exception as well. He has to prove it first, I don't buy this out of position bollocks. It shouldn't stop him from making contribution and that comes from one of his biggest fans.

The perception of Kagawa and Nani in the past, as many have pointed out already, benefit hugely from them being out of the first eleven. The myths then builds within, claiming they have been wonderful, amazing, awesome and need to get back into the team as quick as possible. When they do, however, they rarely produce to the level we want our wingers to, and the cycle continues.

I'll be first to admit that Young and Valencia have undeservedly been given plenty more chances than Nani and Kagawa but that doesn't make the latter two better players/performers than they really have been for us.

I agree for a part. He hasn't been playing near as well as he should but also it is very difficult to play well when you play 1 in 3-4 games. He has only 5 starts in EPL and Young and Valencia have been favorized despite being even worse.

I am not saying that he should play every game regardless of anything. He hasn't done anything to deserve that. But we know his qualities for Dortmund and considering how shit our other options are, it wouldn't be the end of the world to give him 4-5 games in a run. Especially with Rooney out, we should have tried to give those games to Kagawa in his favorite position. If he doesn't do well, then ship him in the summer. If he does well, then keep him and ship the other deadwoods.

Kagawa, Fabio, Zaha and Hernandez have been terribly mismanaged and other players have been favorized in their position despite being awful. Maybe they really aren't good, but maybe they are. It wouldn't have been the end of the world if we had tried a few games with them instead of Buttner, Valencia and Young.

Kagawa has constantly been more effective than Young or Valencia whenever he played regularly.

RAWK is seriously loving Moyes. Probably after their manager and Benitez, he is at the moment their favorite manager.

 

[Cal?]

RAWK is seriously loving Moyes. Probably after their manager and Benitez, he is at the moment their favorite manager.

You know there's a problem when oppositions fans start campaign to keep your manager in the job.

 

[Rowem]

If Moyes can't find a place to fit kagawa, he doesn't deserve mata.

That's like saying if can't find a place to fit Zaha then he doesn't deserve Messi.

 

[Revan]

That's like saying if can't find a place to fit Zaha then he doesn't deserve Messi.

Not at all, Mata is better but their difference in quality is not near as your example. Kagawa is a really good player but isn't being managed correctly.

Anyway, by this September we can all agree how could he is when he'll run the show in an another team and we have to see the infinite crosses to no-one from Ashley Young and Antonio Valencia.