Shinji Kagawa

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I'm quite excited by the potential inter-play between Mata and Kagawa, if the latter ever gets a game again...

Reminds me of when we acquired Yorke and he was paired with Teddy and Ole for a while before him and Cole were unleashed.
 
Mersault said:
I'm quite excited by the potential inter-play between Mata and Kagawa, if the latter ever gets a game again...

Reminds me of when we acquired Yorke and he was paired with Teddy and Ole for a while before him and Cole were unleashed.
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I don't see that ever happening.
 
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Mersault said:
I'm quite excited by the potential inter-play between Mata and Kagawa, if the latter ever gets a game again...

Reminds me of when we acquired Yorke and he was paired with Teddy and Ole for a while before him and Cole were unleashed.
Click to expand...

It's not going to happy mate. Even if they both start.:lol:
 
Mersault said:
I'm quite excited by the potential inter-play between Mata and Kagawa, if the latter ever gets a game again...

Reminds me of when we acquired Yorke and he was paired with Teddy and Ole for a while before him and Cole were unleashed.
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I would love to see that too. Just for one game id like to see us not start traditional wingers and play with Kagawa, Rooney and Mata behind RVP. These are supposed to be technical players who rely on their intelligence and link up play. The three can interchange positions throughout the game. We need not abandon wing play completely, the full backs can provide width on occasions and we can always bring on Young/Valencia in the second half if its not working. Just for one game before we get rid of Kagawa inevitably. Never gonna happen though. We'll never know what its like.
 
charleysurf said:
hate? I'm not the one showing hatred for United players here buddy! I'm not hoping they get injured!
If Kagawa was capable of living up to the fanboy hype I'd be delighted.
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You're one of those people. Who just grossly overreact to "fanboys".

Here is a free tip. Try to judge things based on reality, not in taking an opposite stance just to prove a point. You'll look like less of a knob.
 
I'm hoping there's a game in the not too distant future where it all clicks. Remember the 5-1 against Fulham in 2006? It looked like we'd arrived.

Kagawa, Mata, Januzaj, Van Persie. One touch football, off the ball movement, intelligence. Let them click and who knows?
 
prarek said:
I would love to see that too. Just for one game id like to see us not start traditional wingers and play with Kagawa, Rooney and Mata behind RVP. These are supposed to be technical players who rely on their intelligence and link up play. The three can interchange positions throughout the game. We need not abandon wing play completely, the full backs can provide width on occasions and we can always bring on Young/Valencia in the second half if its not working. Just for one game before we get rid of Kagawa inevitably. Never gonna happen though. We'll never know what its like.
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This is how I line up on FIFA, it's not all that impressive tbh.
 
Mersault said:
I'm quite excited by the potential inter-play between Mata and Kagawa, if the latter ever gets a game again...

Reminds me of when we acquired Yorke and he was paired with Teddy and Ole for a while before him and Cole were unleashed.
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Do you honestly think that is going to happen with Moyes at the helm? What will he ever do with Young and Valencia? He aint going to replace them from the starting XI.
 
I think it's a real shame he hasn't progressed here, but I don't think it's just down to SAF/ Moyes and not selecting him etc or this rubbish, he hasn't helped himself either particularly by showing poor imitations of what he's capable of, he's said as much himself, in a position we are overly stocked, surely his time is limited unless he can find a way of perhaps adding a bit of steel and dropping into CM as his vision, passing etc are on point, his positioning/ robust side is where it's lacking for me.
 
The Japan international has not made the kind of impact many thought he would after arriving at Old Trafford in 2010, and although a return of 6 goals and five assists in 26 games during his first season in England is a decent tally, he has failed to add to either category this term.

The 24-year-old would appear to be his own harshest critic and says his poor form is a massive disappointment, but insists he is determined to make his mark in the final few months of the season.

He told SkyPerfecTV: "I still haven't scored any goals this season so I've felt very irritated. This is the first time in my career that I haven't been able to produce, so it's disappointing.

"I pressure myself to score in every game but some days it feels like I just can't win. I know I have to overcome that; actually if I can't it really shows that I haven't grown as a player.

"So because of that I have to really focus on the second half of the season and overcome that mental block."
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...
 
I still believe he's a world class footballer waiting to happen, although actually, it already happened for him at Dortmund. He's going to be one of those players who leaves, finds the right club and becomes amazing.

Shame really but Utd just isn't the place for him.
 
Cina said:
I still believe he's a world class footballer waiting to happen, although actually, it already happened for him at Dortmund. He's going to be one of those players who leaves, finds the right club and becomes amazing.

Shame really but Utd just isn't the place for him.
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I agree but the problem is partly of our own making. We aren't the right club for him because we insist on utilising an outdated winger system with defunct wingers. I'm not saying ditch wide players altogether but the way we play on the flanks needs modernising, surely. Even when Kagawa and Mata play and to a smaller extent Januzaj, they are made to play in a way that doesn't suit them or the team. We need to play to their strengths. Apart from Young/Valencia our forwards (attacking midfielders and strikers) are the strongest part of the team yet we are playing them in a way that suits none of them and scratching our heads at why it isn't working.
 
If we kill 4-4-2 then he has a chance here, unfortunately with our insistence on building our team around medieval wingplay, it doesn't look like its going anywhere.

I just want to see him in the same pitch with Mata, RVP, Rooney and perhaps Januzaj. Not even going to trying to figure a formation to accommodate them all but with that much quality and technique they should make it work, surely?
 
Kaos said:
If we kill 4-4-2 then he has a chance here, unfortunately with our insistence on building our team around medieval wingplay, it doesn't look like its going anywhere.

I just want to see him in the same pitch with Mata, RVP, Rooney and perhaps Januzaj. Not even going to trying to figure a formation to accommodate them all but with that much quality and technique they should make it work, surely?
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Not if their game plan is built around wishful crossing and getting to the byline is lauded. They all have undeniable talent but we need to play to their strengths.
 
hungrywing said:
I think it'd be possible with a 4-1-4-1 like a few people posted a while back maybe in another thread.
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Something like this then?

-----------------Carrick-----------------
----Januzaj------Mata----------Kagawa
-----------------Rooney----------------
------------------RVP--------------------


Looks salivating on paper but leaves us quite exposed on the flanks. Mind you, against lesser opposition it shouldn't matter....shouldn't.
 
Kaos said:
Something like this then?

-----------------Carrick-----------------
----Januzaj------Mata----------Kagawa
-----------------Rooney----------------
------------------RVP--------------------
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Rather something like this:
------------Carrick-------------

Januzaj--Rooney--Kagawa--Mata----

--------------RVP------------


The current system Bayern have been playing with Lahm as the sole holding player....And they get away with it because they press as a team.
 
Kaos said:
Something like this then?

-----------------Carrick-----------------
----Januzaj------Mata----------Kagawa
-----------------Rooney----------------
------------------RVP--------------------
Click to expand...

It'd take some caf crowdsourcing to come up with a really good shape. But if we're just talking the rest of this season then yes I'd say that's about as good as it can get.

We'd definitely need a very high defensive line, and in the summer a much better/aggressive tackler than Carrick. If Shaw is as good defensively as people claim then him/someone like him is a must.

We all know that priority #1 is stopping other teams from lining up explicitly to exploit our midfield. We keep going in to matches losing that rock-paper-scissors battle, since all we can put out is one of the three. It's literally like playing RPS and only being allowed to throw rock.

Another thing I think would work in the short term is - believe it or not - playing Valencia in midfield. But that's OT in this thread.

Back on topic, one thing I've never seen anyone mention is Shinji's lack of protection from the refs. This is the all-important key if we want to play narrow. I'd highlight underline bold that three dozen times if possible. If we can't address that successfully, this narrow formation that so many are convinced will be better is actually just doomed to fail. We'll just see game after game of 'Shinji is terrible/can't hold onto the ball' from the cafdiots as PL defenders play the me-ubermensch-him-puny-oriental-not-my-fault-he-topple-when-I-give-him-blue-eyed-stare-of-Odin card.

Moyes would do well to do the same thing for Kagawa that he did for Januzaj earlier this season regarding the refs. Drop not-so-subtle hints of racism if needs be.
 
Narrow 4-3-3 with offensive fullbacks and Carrick playing as DM.

-------------- DDG -----------
Rafael - Smalling - Evans - Evra
------------ Carrick ----------
-------- Mata - Kagawa ------
--- Januzaj - RVP - Rooney ---


I think it could work well, given that the instructions are to move around a lot and interchange, while pressing high. When Mata drops deep to help out Carrick and Rafael(for instance), Kagawa remains in a slighly more advance position, and the other way around. Let's say we're overrun and RVP drops back to help out Kagawa and Mata. It will then open up for Rooney and Januzaj to make runs, either by cutting in or running down the wing.

1. Intense off-the-ball movement
2. High pressure
3. Guts to take risky passes

If we have these 3 things, then I think the formation above could work. And when the summer comes, we sign two CMs and a leftback, and change back to 4-2-3-1, with either Mata or Kagawa behind the main striker.
 
Mad Winger said:
Narrow 4-3-3 with offensive fullbacks and Carrick playing as DM.

-------------- DDG -----------
Rafael - Smalling - Evans - Evra
------------ Carrick ----------
-------- Mata - Kagawa ------
--- Januzaj - RVP - Rooney ---


I think it could work well, given that the instructions are to move around a lot and interchange, while pressing high. When Mata drops deep to help out Carrick and Rafael(for instance), Kagawa remains in a slighly more advance position, and the other way around. Let's say we're overrun and RVP drops back to help out Kagawa and Mata. It will then open up for Rooney and Januzaj to make runs, either by cutting in or running down the wing.

1. Intense off-the-ball movement
2. High pressure
3. Guts to take risky passes

If we have these 3 things, then I think the formation above could work. And when the summer comes, we sign two CMs and a leftback, and change back to 4-2-3-1, with either Mata or Kagawa behind the main striker.
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Too complicated for moyes. Spread to wings and cross.
 
I think those personnel could excel under several different schemes. The common denominator is a very high defensive line and the Kagawa/ref thing mentioned earlier.
 
The formations are much less relevant than the way they're being instructed to play.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
--------------De Gea----------
Rafael----Smaliing--Jones---Evra
----------Fellaini--Carrick-------
------Mata--Rooney-Kagawa----
--------------RVP------------

No wingers,3 AM'S. Attack through the center nice short passes and automatism.
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A lot of people have proposed this or something like it. I very much doubt it would work. The setup still hinges on the exact same two failure points that plague the '442' that's getting universally panned - the inadequate midfield and the wings. It leaves too much on the shoulders of Fellaini-Carrick being able to consistently outperform the opposition, and it's far too easy to counter by exploiting the wings: if I'm an opposition manager I'll just force the ball out wide - there, I've just dragged your diminutive non-wingers out to the wings and if I can keep doing that over 90 minutes I really really like my odds.

The whole 4-1-4-1 idea is based on not giving up possession that often. You need to go all out in that aspect. Hedging one's bets defensively and putting Fellaini in there defeats the purpose.

All that said, if you really want to try this then you need to forbid Mata and Kagawa from going out wide - take your chances on the wings and let them worry about losing the possession battle in the middle. Otherwise you lose the initiative of playing narrow. Which is again why you need a very very high defensive line - aggressively challenge the opposition to pull something off consistently in that compressed space on the flanks. You need excellent defensive fullbacks.
 
Mad Winger said:
Narrow 4-3-3 with offensive fullbacks and Carrick playing as DM.

-------------- DDG -----------
Rafael - Smalling - Evans - Evra
------------ Carrick ----------
-------- Mata - Kagawa ------
--- Januzaj - RVP - Rooney ---


I think it could work well, given that the instructions are to move around a lot and interchange, while pressing high. When Mata drops deep to help out Carrick and Rafael(for instance), Kagawa remains in a slighly more advance position, and the other way around. Let's say we're overrun and RVP drops back to help out Kagawa and Mata. It will then open up for Rooney and Januzaj to make runs, either by cutting in or running down the wing.

1. Intense off-the-ball movement
2. High pressure
3. Guts to take risky passes

If we have these 3 things, then I think the formation above could work. And when the summer comes, we sign two CMs and a leftback, and change back to 4-2-3-1, with either Mata or Kagawa behind the main striker.
Click to expand...

Looks good on paper but in reality, it would require a lot of defending from both Kagawa and Mata..which quite frankly neither are any good at.
 
Bape said:
Looks good on paper but in reality, it would require a lot of defending from both Kagawa and Mata..which quite frankly neither are any good at.
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That would be my worry.

Also, unlike Januzaj, Kagawa is only effective on the pitch in an area the size of a postage stamp. He's decent in the number 10 position but I'd rather have a fluid 3 behind RVP who can all interchange position and still contribute.
 
The idea that Mata can't defend is a bit unfair.

Seems to have been lumbered with that reputation by Chelsea, as justification for freezing him out. Whenever I've watched him he always puts in a shift. In the game against Stock he attempted (and completed) more tackles than any other player on the pitch, for United or Stoke( 5/7). He also managed the second highest number of "ball recoveries" (9) out of everyone.

Kagawa, on the other hand...
 
Pogue Mahone said:
The idea that Mata can't defend is a bit unfair.

Seems to have been lumbered with that reputation by Chelsea, as justification for freezing him out. Whenever I've watched him he always puts in a shift. In the game against Stock he attempted (and completed) more tackles than any other player on the pitch, for United or Stoke( 5/7). He also managed the second highest number of "ball recoveries" (9) out of everyone.

Kagawa, on the other hand...
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Mata avg 1.4 tackles a game. Kagawa avg 1.1 tackles a game. Not that much difference
 
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