Shinji Kagawa

[datura]

If you read the majority of post here (other than Mad Winger), you'll know that most just wanted Kagawa get a fair crack of to a fix position, either left wing or CAM. Even when he played well he was given a run. Hows that making excuses?

There's far more then just MW making the same point. When he plays poorly it's blamed on the team. For me he lacks character, he doesn't impose himself enough in games or take responsibility to take shots on etc, he's a luxury player who looks great when the team is playing well, but passive when we're against it. The complete opposite to a player like Januzaj who has been the main reason why Kagawa has had less minutes this season.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Except the last two games he played in, in which he was all over to motm thread.

Now completely ignored because he hasn't played the next two games. Ah, the old run of form. Are we going to pretend Welbeck or Young, or Valencia would have been benched after finally starting to put it together? Just another glaring example of Moyes lack of man management

He really wasn't that good though, at least Young has assists and goals, if Kagawa had scored a goal like Young's last goal Mad Winger would probably have a heart attack and the fanboys would be demanding the golden boot.

 

[reelworld]

FWIW, I think the lack of quality in midfield contributes a lot to why Kagawa not playing.

Valencia and Young can put a shift in helping the midfield to compensate for the CM weakness. However theyre shit at everything else which make putting a shift rather pointless.

Moyes seems doesnt want to take any risk while I think Kagawa is a risk worth taking for

 

[Sphaero]

They obviously wouldn't have. Horses for courses and all that - and the latter is, at least partly, precisely Kagawa's problem. But you have to admit that this goes both ways. A lack of versatility is a weakness in a player, no matter how you twist it.

A weakness, which was known from the very start. I said it a long time ago: Kagawa´s only real realistic chance of making it at United would be to adapt to a new position and style. United would not suddenly change its core style of play. He failed to do that. This is partly down to him, but also because he was never given a fair chance.

You can´t expect him to change if he is not given a real run of games on a fixed position. You need to put some faith in him and allow him to stay in the team even if he is not setting the league on fire and plays poorly. In Kagawa´s case he was even frozen out after decent performances like against West Brom or after Swansea.

This whole thing is simply not working and it would be the best for him and also the club (his worth will drop further and further) to go seperate ways in the summer.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

It's of no benefit to anyone.

Of course you'll never hear the Kagawa fanbois talking about how difficult it must be for the likes of Young, Welbeck, Valencia and Rooney to shine without intelligent movement around them.

Welbeck is the greatest example of poor movement or a total lack of movement

 

[Mad Winger]

This is partly down to him, but also because he was never given a fair chance.

You can´t expect him to change if he is not given a real run of games on a fixed position. You need to put some faith in him and allow him to stay in the team even if he is not setting the league on fire and plays poorly. In Kagawa´s case he was even frozen out after decent performances like against West Brom or after Swansea.

Applause.

 

[datura]

FWIW, I think the lack of quality in midfield contributes a lot to why Kagawa not playing.

Valencia and Young can put a shift in helping the midfield to compensate for the CM weakness. However theyre shit at everything else which make putting a shift rather pointless.

Moyes seems doesnt want to take any risk while I think Kagawa is a risk worth taking for

Have you even bothered watching Young recently? Obviously not.

 

[Nighteyes]

I am not his biggest fan here but Valencia over Kagawa is baffling.

 

[Timdbro]

He really wasn't that good though, at least Young has assists and goals, if Kagawa had scored a goal like Young's last goal Mad Winger would probably have a heart attack and the fanboys would be demanding the golden boot.

I think this line of thinking may be a big part of the reason he's not been played this season; people are looking at Kagawa this season saying "where's the end product?".
Well, he showed he was capable of producing last season, and in his time at Dortmund (compared to Young, Valencia, or any other of our midfielders). This season, lack of form, no run of matches, and bad luck on one or two occasion have led to him not producing, fair enough. But is that all we should be looking at? What about how the team plays when he's on the pitch vs. Young/Valencia/Welbeck (as a winger or 10)? How many chances the team creates? The win/loss ratio?

I don't know what the answer is, I haven't looked at the data to see, but surely those things are at least as important as how goals/assists he has this season. Who knows, maybe we've created far more chances with Valencia on the pitch than with Kagawa — thing is, nobody talks about all that other data.

Edit: Also, Young has 2 league goals, plus 1 goal and 1 assist in the League Cup. It's not like we're talking about some irreplaceable statistical behemoth.

 

[RDCR07]

He really wasn't that good though, at least Young has assists and goals, if Kagawa had scored a goal like Young's last goal Mad Winger would probably have a heart attack and the fanboys would be demanding the golden boot.

I think thats the problem. We only judge players on assists or goals they score, which is partly okay but we also need to see the bigger picture. We have much better, flowing football when Kagawa is on the pitch. We play better because he makes good runs and as a result creates space for the other players. He isnt as one dimensional as either Young or Valencia.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

A weakness, which was known from the very start. I said it a long time ago: Kagawa´s only real realistic chance of making it at United would be to adapt to a new position and style. United would not suddenly change its core style of play. He failed to do that. This is partly down to him, but also because he was never given a fair chance.

You can´t expect him to change if he is not given a real run of games on a fixed position. You need to put some faith in him and allow him to stay in the team even if he is not setting the league on fire and plays poorly. In Kagawa´s case he was even frozen out after decent performances like against West Brom or after Swansea.

This whole thing is simply not working and it would be the best for him and also the club (his worth will drop further and further) to go seperate ways in the summer.

I'm afraid this is pretty much the case, yes.

One could add that Kagawa's one realistic chance of getting a proper run of games has been to make the left wing role his own. Ideally he should have been our first choice No 10 - ideally for him, I mean. But he hasn't been - and that isn't insanity on Moyes' part.

On the left Kagawa has been largely unimpressive, sadly. So unimpressive that it isn't possible - in my opinion - to say that he has been unfairly treated in terms of being dropped, etc.

It's just as you say - it simply hasn't worked out. And sometimes it simply doesn't. Better players than Kagawa have failed to make it at the wrong club or in the wrong set-up.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

He really wasn't that good though, at least Young has assists and goals, if Kagawa had scored a goal like Young's last goal Mad Winger would probably have a heart attack and the fanboys would be demanding the golden boot.

So, you're argument is he wasn't very good even though the vast majority of the Caf thought so, then you switch to talking about how Young, who has spent most of this season being shit and was allowed to play thru it, has more assists over the season.
i was of course discussing how a player seemed to find his form over the past two games and was immediately benched, not a player being shit for an extended period and being allowed a decent amount time to play through it.

I agree with you about mad winger but Kagawa haters like yourself aren't much different.

 

[LR7]

Have we even seen Kagawa since that Swansea game when swapping him and Januzaj at half time changed the game? I thought he played really well in that second half. Given our focus on spreading the ball wide and whipping an early cross in its quite unsurprising he hasn't shone. We've neglected passing through the centre as much as possible.

 

[Gannicus]

I like what Kagawa brings to the table but as long as we're playing the longball game under Moyes it's just not going to work out for Shinji.

He's a terrific player, but not a good fit for The Moyes Way.

 

[Devil may care]

I thought he'd become our Silva, hopefully there's still a place for him as Moyes rebuilds, I'd hate to see him leave while Young and Valencia stay, Kagawa fits into the type of football system we need to be switching to.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Ashley Young has less starts than Kagawa in all competitions this season. He has started one CL match compared to Kagawa's five starts, for instance (8 league starts compared to Kagawa's 7). He was benched for a long stretch after his horrible performances in the beginning of the season. He hasn't really looked like a Moyes favourite compared to Kagawa.

 

[pocco]

I think he's only ever going to be a backup to Mata and Januzaj. They just offer so much more from the same positions. Even if Rooney leaves we'll probably go out and buy another top class attacker.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

So, you're argument is he wasn't very good even though the vast majority of the Caf thought so, then you switch to talking about how Young, who has spent most of this season being shit and was allowed to play thru it, has more assists over the season.
i was of course discussing how a player seemed to find his form over the past two games and was immediately benched, not a player being shit for an extended period and being allowed a decent amount time to play through it.

I agree with you about mad winger but Kagawa haters like yourself aren't much different.

I don't hate Kagawa I simply think he isn't that good from what I have seen from him so far. Even in his last two appearances when he was a lot better he was still nothing amazing and no where near good enough to take the 10 position from Rooney. Januzaj is better on the wing so unless we intend to play with more than one attacking midfielder in the future he will always be second choice.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

I don't hate Kagawa I simply think he isn't that good from what I have seen from him so far. Even in his last two appearances when he was a lot better he was still nothing amazing and no where near good enough to take the 10 position from Rooney. Januzaj is better on the wing so unless we intend to play with more than one attacking midfielder in the future he will always be second choice.

Oh, sorry, I thought we were applying labels to posters who were just making arguments, like fanboy and Kagawa hater.

 

[Tooni]

I am not his biggest fan here but Valencia over Kagawa is baffling.

I'll always bet on Valencia over Kagawa in a race to the byline.

 

[Mister Ed]

I am not his biggest fan here but Valencia over Kagawa is baffling.

There is nothing baffling about it, Valencia and Kagawa aren't even in direct competition because they play different positions. Valencia plays as an out and out right winger and Kagawa is a number 10 that can play on the left wing cutting inside. Kagawa is in competition with Young, Adnan, Rooney and Mata not with Valencia, Kagawa would never play right wing nor would Valencia ever play left wing or in the hole.

Given recent performances I think Rooney, Mata and Adnan deserve to be in front of him for the number 10 position and Young and Adnan deserve to be in front of him for the left wing. Hence why he hardly ever plays and should be moved on in the summer.

 

[Nighteyes]

There is nothing baffling about it, Valencia and Kagawa aren't even in direct competition because they play different positions. Valencia plays as an out and out right winger and Kagawa is a number 10 that can play on the left wing cutting inside. Kagawa is in competition with Young, Adnan, Rooney and Mata not with Valencia, Kagawa would never play right wing nor would Valencia ever play left wing or in the hole.

Given recent performances I think Rooney, Mata and Adnan deserve to be in front of him for the number 10 position and Young and Adnan deserve to be in front of him for the left wing. Hence why he hardly ever plays and should be moved on in the summer.

It's quite simple really.

Drop Valencia and you can play Januzaj on the right thus opening up a place for Kagawa on the left.

 

[Ole'sbodyguard]

There is nothing baffling about it, Valencia and Kagawa aren't even in direct competition because they play different positions. Valencia plays as an out and out right winger and Kagawa is a number 10 that can play on the left wing cutting inside. Kagawa is in competition with Young, Adnan, Rooney and Mata not with Valencia, Kagawa would never play right wing nor would Valencia ever play left wing or in the hole.

Given recent performances I think Rooney, Mata and Adnan deserve to be in front of him for the number 10 position and Young and Adnan deserve to be in front of him for the left wing. Hence why he hardly ever plays and should be moved on in the summer.

Pretty much agree with all of that. Kagawa has no goals and no assists this season and has had plenty of opportunities to impress.

 

[Ole'sbodyguard]

It's quite simple really.

Drop Valencia and you can play Januzaj on the right thus opening up a place for Kagawa on the left.

Why would you do that after we just signed Mata?

Kagawa is not outperforming Young at the moment either so why drop him either.

 

[gooDevil]

Does he still play as a left forward in a 433 for Japan?

I can see a front 3 of Rooney/RVP, Mata and Kagawa working.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Ashley Young has less starts than Kagawa in all competitions this season. He has started one CL match compared to Kagawa's five starts, for instance (8 league starts compared to Kagawa's 7). He was benched for a long stretch after his horrible performances in the beginning of the season. He hasn't really looked like a Moyes favourite compared to Kagawa.

Young has Never been dropped after a good performance. Kagawa in comparison was dropped after destroying Leverkusen away from home.

 

[Nighteyes]

Why would you do that after we just signed Mata?

Kagawa is not outperforming Young at the moment either so why drop him either.

Not now of course but that's what I'd have done for most of the season before we signed Mata.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

I don't think we need to take this debate nearly as far back into the past as some of the discussion has gone. For myself the second half against Swansea and Kagawa's resulting absence is a fine example of where he stands in the manager's thinking quite regardless of form or other practical concerns.

As for people suggesting that he is in competition with somebody like Valencia for a place in the team, well it is fair to say that starting Antonio influences the formation and general approach of the team, swapping them around obviously doesn't imply that Shinji finds himself on the right wing pumping in aimless crosses.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Young has Never been dropped after a good performance. Kagawa in comparison was dropped after destroying Leverkusen away from home.

If Kagawa had delivered performances like the Leverkusen one on the left he would have been a regular starter all season. He has never really performed in that role, though. He was never going to grab the No 10 spot on a regular basis with both Rooney and RVP at the club.

 

[Ole'sbodyguard]

Have we even seen Kagawa since that Swansea game when swapping him and Januzaj at half time changed the game? I thought he played really well in that second half. Given our focus on spreading the ball wide and whipping an early cross in its quite unsurprising he hasn't shone. We've neglected passing through the centre as much as possible.

Yes. He started against Sunderland in the League cup semi final at Old Trafford.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Oh, sorry, I thought we were applying labels to posters who were just making arguments, like fanboy and Kagawa hater.

Christ you're annoying.

 

[Ole'sbodyguard]

Young has Never been dropped after a good performance. Kagawa in comparison was dropped after destroying Leverkusen away from home.

Kagawa started the next league game against Spurs after Leverkusen and was then apparently unwell for the next league games against Everton/Newcastle and was back in the side when he was fit again behind Rooney against Shaktar. He was not dropped after Leverkusen.

Young and Welbeck then went on some good form so he was deservedly out of the side for the next couple of games over Christmas and was back in the side again against Norwich and was disappointing. He was still given opportunities such as coming on as sub against Spurs and playing the FA Cup third round against Swansea and then the next league game against Swansea.

The only time you could argue he was harshly left out was not starting the Chelsea away game after a decent second half performance against Swansea and he was back in the side the following game against Sunderland. That's it. Since we signed Mata he's not featured against Cardiff or Stoke.

 

[jem]

I'd honestly start him in place of Cleverley (my first choice would be Fletcher there, but anyway.) It's not like Cleverley offers anything defensively, and Kagawa can do everything he can, except at a higher level.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

If Kagawa had delivered performances like the Leverkusen one on the left he would have been a regular starter all season.......

He is not a left winger and never will be. To expect a top performance from him in that role, with the type of midfield we have currently is laughable. Not to mention with the rigid way we play our attackers.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

The only time you could argue he was harshly left out was not starting the Chelsea away game after a decent second half performance against Swansea and he was back in the side the following game against Sunderland. That's it. Since we signed Mata he's not featured against Cardiff or Stoke.

Would that by chance be the Sunderland game in which he again started on the left wing, contrary to where he had just put in a decent performance against Swansea? And when not for the first time found himself being subbed off ahead of other more worthy candidates?

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

Christ you're annoying.

.
irony considering you were in here calling people fanboys

 

[Kaos]

I'd honestly start him in place of Cleverley (my first choice would be Fletcher there, but anyway.) It's not like Cleverley offers anything defensively, and Kagawa can do everything he can, except at a higher level.

This.

Playing Kagawa out of position > playing Cleverley in position.

At least Kagawa's passes will go forward.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

.
irony. Try not using terms like fanboy and you won't be.

I'll use whatever term I like thanks very much.

 

[Ole'sbodyguard]

Would that by chance be the Sunderland game in which he again started on the left wing, contrary to where he had just put in a decent performance against Swansea? And when not for the first time found himself being subbed off ahead of other more worthy candidates?

We played 4-2-3-1 against Sunderland and the midfield three behind Hernandez were quite flexible. He was stationed on the left but as normal changed positions with Welbeck and Januzaj quite frequently.

I don't see the relevance anyway. He was subbed because he was ineffectual and then the next league game Rooney, Mata and RVP were available. He's never going to get ahead of them playing behind the striker on his form this season.

If anyone is arguing Kagawa can only be effective for United in the number 10 then he has a real problem as Rooney, RVP, Mata are always going to be ahead of him there. Personally I think Welbeck has looked better than him centrally this season as well if the choice was between pairing either of them with Rooney if RVP was out.

Kagawa has also given underwhelming performances behind the striker as well such as Norwich and Shaktar at home. He's just had a disappointing season playing wise which he readily admits himself. One of the things that has struck me that might salvage his career is his own attitude because in his interviews he's readily conceding his own poor form.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

He is not a left winger and never will be. To expect a top performance from him in that role, with the type of midfield we have currently is laughable. Not to mention with the rigid way we play our attackers.

Nobody's expecting him to play as a Valencia on the left - including Moyes. The system is not incompatible with a left sided attacking midfielder of sorts, something like the Silva role at City.