If he contributes defensively it's nothing more than a bonus. I wasn't belittling your opinion for what it's worth, I was merely questioning why it's even an issue. He hasn't been brought in to win the ball, the same way Vidić wasn't brought in to provide assists.
Juan Mata | 2013/14 Performances
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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Rooney gets lauded for his defensive qualities even when playing as an out an out striker, you'll still see him in our half tying to win the ball back. With Mata he's been portrayed as someone who doesn't pull his weight defensively and what we have seen here so far is someone who isn't afraid to put a tackle in, can win the ball back, presses high up and closes people down well and who positions himself to limit the oppositions options. I think it's worthy of a mention even if it isn't his primary task.
I didn't feel belittled, just bemused!
Ho hum. Moving on
Ho hum. Moving on
Kagawa still has more interceptions and tackles than Young and Januzaj mind. The difference being that Januzaj is much better offensively, while Young is more or less the same offensively. Passing wise thought Kagawa shits on Young and Januzaj. Kagawa is basically let down by his attacking play. Meanwhile Mata has so far shat on all of them, including Valencia. So yeah, great purchase.
I remember people being frustrated with Ronaldos defensive efforts but Fergie did say in an interview he didnt want Ronaldo involved in any defensive work. Sometimes we dont know what instructions players are working to.
An attacking player who is let down by his attacking play
He's in trouble this summer.
An attacking player who is let down by his attacking play
He's in trouble this summer.
Indeed. But he's one of our best passers and does a job defensively. Just needs to show more composure in the final third. But that comes with being played, needs a run in the side which he won't get. So yeah, he's in trouble.
Exactly.
It's also good news when a lot of people (well me, anyway!) believe that moyes (and probably SAF too) has felt under pressure to pick Valencia and Young because we're under strength in central midfield.
Great to have a really creative player who won't leave us slightly weakened, defensively.
in modern football it seems that there is more emphasis on "complete" players. Re: vidic, he wasn t bought to "provide assists",but neither to hoof the ball away all the time.
Yes, and I do believe we see a lot of more rounded footballers nowadays. Especially with centre-backs. But I still don't understand how Mata's defensive contribution, and I've know idea how good it is, can come into question within two games... Aside from the fact he was purchased to help create chances, and not win the ball back.
Myth #1: Mata does not bother defending.
Tackles per game
Yaya - 1.6
Mata - 1.4
Silva - 1.2
Ozil - 1
Hazard - 0.8
Myth #2: Mata gets easily dispossed.
Dispossed per game
Yaya - 0.9
Mata - 1
Ozil - 1.5
Silva - 2
Hazard - 2.7
Myth #3: Mata cannot press.
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really hope he can score tonight....
I understand Mata's not a winger, and shit would understandably hit the fan on here if he were told to stay as wide as possible, offer width at all times, but it's kind of pointless to give him a license to roam just for the sake of it. I mean, he was constantly coming inside for like the first 25-30 minutes, picking up little pockets of space, only to be totally bypassed and the ball to be played out wide so it could be crossed...again. In that first half, I can only remember a hand full of times he received the ball centrally, all of which were over 30 yards away from goal anyway, and each time he went back or sideways.
Don't get me wrong, I love the thought of Mata being unchained, constantly sniffing out areas where he can affect the game and hurt the oppositon, but at the same time, surely some thought has to be given to the tactics we're playing, and whether or not giving any player that amount of freedom is in-keeping with the football we're actually trying to play in reality, not in theory.
I'm sure if you looked at his passing map (and I very rarely reference things like this, I wouldn't even know where to find one), you'd see much of his involvement came from a wide area, and he was either going backwards, passing the ball out wide or crossing it himself.
I guess my point is that it's all well and good giving him a free role just...well, just because...but him coming inside and not standing on the wing all the time seems to be, for me, just an illusion that we're trying something different at the moment, because practically all of his meaningful involvement is borne out of doing what practically every other one of our players is doing, and that's influencing the game from wider areas, and we're seemingly happy to ignore him until he conforms. Despite the fact he's widely regarded as a world-class playmaker, we're essentially still playing a 4-4-2 with a slight twist, only the twist (Mata coming inside, floating) doesn't really count.
I wrote that at half-time, just forgot to post, but just a little addendum: at around the 74th minute, Gary Neville said something a long the lines of "there's no one on the right and that's just wrong, you have to stretch the game." Admittedly Valencia had come on at right back and was probably supposed to be supplying the width, but at this point, when we were desperately in need of a goal, it was obvious what were trying to do, and that was bombard the wings. At no point was there any suggestion that we were going to try anything different, yet Mata was still floating around inside, and whether you agree with the tactics deployed or not, it was throwing the balance of the team completely off.
It's like we're letting him do whatever he wants just because his name's Juan Mata and that we should just be happy he's there, regardless of how befitting it is of what it is we're trying to do.
And just to be clear, this isn't a dig at Mata, more the tactics. He's a brilliant player but he's being just as underutilised as Kagawa at the moment, imo - just because Kagawa's made to play wide doesn't mean it's not pretty much the same thing.
Don't get me wrong, I love the thought of Mata being unchained, constantly sniffing out areas where he can affect the game and hurt the oppositon, but at the same time, surely some thought has to be given to the tactics we're playing, and whether or not giving any player that amount of freedom is in-keeping with the football we're actually trying to play in reality, not in theory.
I'm sure if you looked at his passing map (and I very rarely reference things like this, I wouldn't even know where to find one), you'd see much of his involvement came from a wide area, and he was either going backwards, passing the ball out wide or crossing it himself.
I guess my point is that it's all well and good giving him a free role just...well, just because...but him coming inside and not standing on the wing all the time seems to be, for me, just an illusion that we're trying something different at the moment, because practically all of his meaningful involvement is borne out of doing what practically every other one of our players is doing, and that's influencing the game from wider areas, and we're seemingly happy to ignore him until he conforms. Despite the fact he's widely regarded as a world-class playmaker, we're essentially still playing a 4-4-2 with a slight twist, only the twist (Mata coming inside, floating) doesn't really count.
I wrote that at half-time, just forgot to post, but just a little addendum: at around the 74th minute, Gary Neville said something a long the lines of "there's no one on the right and that's just wrong, you have to stretch the game." Admittedly Valencia had come on at right back and was probably supposed to be supplying the width, but at this point, when we were desperately in need of a goal, it was obvious what were trying to do, and that was bombard the wings. At no point was there any suggestion that we were going to try anything different, yet Mata was still floating around inside, and whether you agree with the tactics deployed or not, it was throwing the balance of the team completely off.
It's like we're letting him do whatever he wants just because his name's Juan Mata and that we should just be happy he's there, regardless of how befitting it is of what it is we're trying to do.
And just to be clear, this isn't a dig at Mata, more the tactics. He's a brilliant player but he's being just as underutilised as Kagawa at the moment, imo - just because Kagawa's made to play wide doesn't mean it's not pretty much the same thing.
Not reading all that shit
Wasted with Moyes as manager, as expected. Shame as he's quite clearly a class act.
He's made a huge mistake.
Thought he did well. Created a number of chances, RVP header to the keeper (tough angle that tbf), Vidic header straight to the keeper (could have done better there Vidic), also a through ball to Carrick in the box that slid him by and another chance for Rooney drawing a save from the keeper. Also started the attack for the first goal and ultimately made the assist for RVP. A few sloppy moments in the second half though but good performance overall.
Quality player, will probably sit at home tonight thinking, "I made a big mistake..."
Discussion forums probably aren't for you then.
The reason Ozil to Arsenal worked is because of the way they play, meaning that a huge array of players that were central were/are perfectly competent of playing wide because they all interchange and sometimes you wouldn't really know what the starting line-up was because they're all over the pitch and know what they are doing, but they can change it with people like Walcott etc. Mata should be playing behind the striker, it's where he would excel and i can't help but feel that he just won't work as a winger in your style. I don't think you really envisaged the future when you signed him, it was just a case of a WC player becoming available and you didn't overly have an idea of how you would fit him into the side.
You have a dilemma where your 3 best players play best in positions where there are only 2 slots available so you either sell/drop one or you risk having one probably underperforming.
You have a dilemma where your 3 best players play best in positions where there are only 2 slots available so you either sell/drop one or you risk having one probably underperforming.
Another assist, probably the best player on the pitch today if you ask me, plenty of recoveries, plenty of great Scholes-esque passes, plenty of crosses lobbed through passes and nearly scored too.
His expression in the end.
Whatever Moyes decides, Mata has to play as the number 10. He's being wasted otherwise.
He's a class player really, I can't wait to see how he does when we change our manager. So much potential with our attacking players to play great football. I feel like waiting for moyes to be gone is like waiting for a player to come back from injury, Moyes is United's current long term injury.
3 games, 3 assists. Although he wasn't at his best today, though that's entirely due to the style. He's got a great passing range.
3 games, 3 assists. Although he wasn't at his best today, though that's entirely due to the style. He's got a great passing range.
"What have I gotten myself into?"His expression in the end.
not by coming to United.
He probably can't understand his managers tactics either. He's too good for this nonsense, as are our other top players.
Juan Mata, welcome to Kagawa's world! Until we change our prehistoric system of attack we'll never see the best out of him.
I bet he was thinking "wheres that clause?"
To be fair, he's only played in 3 games and done infinitely more than Kagawa and affected the game in terms of creating genuine chances every single time.
Either way, I hope this poor form from the team doesn't deflate him and wrap him up into a shell.
His fault, he didn't cross nearly as much as he should. We should have been looking at 117 crosss not 81. Let's hope he's good at long throws or else I can see no possible use for him in this side.
It does not matter if he plays out wide. Plenty of players like him do and play well. Look at Silva and Carzola for starters. What matter is how we play.
Exactly. He's still creating more chances than anyone in the team and most of those were from the right, the assist today was also delivered from the right side. Don't know why some people are intent on comparing him with Kagawa when he's actually delivering the goods.
I wasn't saying he's played badly, just that our system is not designed for players like him and Kagawa to truly excel in, he's not a winger and asking to spend most of the game pumping in crosses ala Ashley Young is just a waste.
We have a thread that is posted in regularity about what players we should buy, when I look at Rooney, RvP, Mata, Januzaj and Kagawa I can't help but think it's the system rather than players we have that is the problem, we should be so much more fluid and inventive with the options that we have.
3 assists in 3 games. His productivity is immense. Another one of the very good players still at this club. He's doing his best and performing well given the on-field circumstances.
But since Januzaj has been resigned to the bench role he's arguably been our only shining light. He's fine in the system because he is producing...he is that good. The system is the problem which shows in the results.
He strikes me as a player who will always perform no matter how bad things are. Chelsea weren't exactly rampant in the league in 2012 but he was tearing it up.
The approach is definitely the issue, Rooney and RVP are both way to high, I mean I don't know the stats but I imagine they're making a lot less passes to each other than Sturridge and Suarez ar on average. Because neither of them are dropping we can't create much centrally and we can't bring others like Mata in to play. We could line up with Januzaj and Mata either flank but if we have the two stikers almost on top of each other it's gonna reduce how we can play.
I had thought that maybe it was a case that both Rooney/RVP wanted to play high and Moyes didn't want to annoy them but looking at how Rooney has reacted to being asked to drop in to cm, I don't think he would mind playing deeper, it seems very Moyes driven and you can also see it with the number of times he will opt to bring on Welbeck/Hernandez.
The thing is, is I don't see who this benefits. Because both strikers play so high the type of service the receive is limited and the way players like Mata/Januzaj/Kagawa can influence are limited. The only players it suits are Valencia/Young as far as I can see.
3 games in and already getting the ball out wide at every opportunity, sad.
I thought he struggled today, but he's obviously a cracking player and it can't be easy coming into a club in perpetual crisis, reportedly with some pretty serious dressingroom issues.
When he's actually allowed to do so - he plays some bloody delightful stuff.
I thought he was our best player to be honest - the only one likely to make things happen.
I thought he was our best player to be honest - the only one likely to make things happen.
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