Juan Mata | 2013/14 Performances
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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Always putting 'hugs' after his blogs the tiny Jesse!
Hes the polar opposite of Luiz who ends his blogs with 'feck off and die you cnuts'.
I thought it'd be "Headbutts and splash tackles, always yours, Luiz"
I know I will get blasted for this but I'm sure I can't be the only one.
I loved signing Mata. I was over the moon when we managed to get him. Absolutely buzzing. But the last two days have had me thinking...
I mean, he really does almost next to nothing off the ball. This means that we're going to need runners around him. Van Persie isn't that. So we've essentially got 2 players that don't move about too much. Is this enough for the biggest games? I don't know. I don't think so. I think we will need to change our team drastically in the summer in order to compensate for Mata. He's a brilliant player on the ball but off the ball we can pay for this.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed this.
I loved signing Mata. I was over the moon when we managed to get him. Absolutely buzzing. But the last two days have had me thinking...
I mean, he really does almost next to nothing off the ball. This means that we're going to need runners around him. Van Persie isn't that. So we've essentially got 2 players that don't move about too much. Is this enough for the biggest games? I don't know. I don't think so. I think we will need to change our team drastically in the summer in order to compensate for Mata. He's a brilliant player on the ball but off the ball we can pay for this.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed this.
He doesn't do much defensively, we all knew that, but every team has players like those. We're the only top team around who picks our attacking players based on their supposed defensive capabilities. Its ridiculous really and clearly a lot of our fans seem to have started believing its the way to go.
For what its worth, Mata had more tackles then anyone else in our team against Stoke, clearly making the point that he does absolutely nothing defensively false. Anyways, he always opens himself up to for a pass and is in pockets of space to receive the ball and relieve pressure. That does more then tackling someone or clearing the ball into touch IMO because it actually gives you a good out ball, and he's always in position to get it. There's a lot more to what players do off the ball then defensive work.
Do you think Reus or Lewandowski do loads of defensive work for Dortmund? What about Robben or Gotze for Bayern? Ronaldo or Benzema? Messi, Neymar or iniesta? Mata does his share of defensive work, but we that's not what we bought him for.
The logic you're using is the work rate>talent or intelligence logic which is so outdated. It's like saying you'd pick Ji Sung Park over Juan Mata in big games because he runs around more and does more defensive work. You wouldn't, nobody would.
Completely agree with you. The only time we need to look at work rate and defensive abilities is when we are playing a far better team like Barca or Bayern who are guaranteed to keep the ball more than us. Not when we are playing stoke or newcastle. We are supposed to dominate these teams possession wise and chances created. Right now, we need to keep getting 3 points off of these teams and Mata will surely help. It's not his job to run around winning balls. He is a playmaker who creates chances. If his attacking talent offsets his defensive vulnerability then he can easily be worth it.
Agreed, but even in those games, we still need players like Mata. Remember the champions league final 2011? We went for players like Park and Valencia and it failed miserably and those players in particular looked out of their depth. In the biggest games, against talented opposition, sure we want hard working players and we don't want to go all out, but we also want our talented players in the side and Mata is as talented and as good as anyone in the #10 position.
A lineup like this would be good for all games IMO:
RVP
Rooney Mata Januzaj
Fletcher Carrick
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Perfectly balanced IMO. Rooney might not be happy but he'd be given license to roam, but would have defensive duties and would track back, we'd have 2 experienced defensive midfielders who are good on the ball with Fletcher and Carrick, Januzaj has worked really hard this season and proved he isn't useless defensively, and we all know how good he is going forward. Then there's Mata and RVP. Great mix of control, talent, creativity, work rate and solidity in that team IMO. Obviously it could get even better with a more mobile defensive mid in there instead of Carrick, and an improvement in the defence but that midfield and attack overall, under the right system could be great.Rooney Mata Januzaj
Fletcher Carrick
back 5
Mata, Rooney, RVP and Januzaj yet......our manager can't find a way how to beat Stoke.
I take it you mean defensively... because attacking-wise, nobody has done more off the ball then Mata in our last two games.
You're not the only one. Mourinho's issues with Mata have not disappeared because he plays for United now. It would matter less if he was deployed behind the striker. But out wide, we will have a problem going the other way, especially with a poor midfield to cover.
My other reservation, although this is not a reservation about Mata directly, but as a team on the whole, is the lack of pace and penetration in behind going forward. Ozil was great but they also have a Walcott.
Mata is not known for his off the ball work BUT he's not as bad as its been made out to be. He won the most tackles in the last game, it doesn't prove his workrate but it shows he's not a lazy bum either. He's no Dirk Kuyt or Park Ji Sung that's for sure but we didn't buy him for his defensive duties and neither did Chelsea. He also won more possession than any other Chelsea player in the final third last season and defensively he is contributing more than players like Ozil and Hazard and the stats show that.
Imo the main reason why Mourinho let him go is because he's just not his type of player. He prefers players with pace, athleticism and a bit of aggression in addition to having good skills. He will compromise a bit on the skills department if he has to. Mata has the skills but he does not have the pace and he's only slightly bigger than Evra. When i look at Mourinho's teams i don't see an offensive player like Mata, the closest is perhaps Deco for Porto but he was a CM and he's always had a bit of a 'cynical'(if you will) and aggressive side to him. Modric is also a CM. Mata is not the best defensively but he's not the worst either. Same can be said about his off the ball work rate. No matter how hard he worked off the ball he was never going to be a Mourinho player imo as he's not athletic enough for him even though he's technically superior to players like Will.i.Am and Schurrle.
Imo the main reason why Mourinho let him go is because he's just not his type of player. He prefers players with pace, athleticism and a bit of aggression in addition to having good skills. He will compromise a bit on the skills department if he has to. Mata has the skills but he does not have the pace and he's only slightly bigger than Evra. When i look at Mourinho's teams i don't see an offensive player like Mata, the closest is perhaps Deco for Porto but he was a CM and he's always had a bit of a 'cynical'(if you will) and aggressive side to him. Modric is also a CM. Mata is not the best defensively but he's not the worst either. Same can be said about his off the ball work rate. No matter how hard he worked off the ball he was never going to be a Mourinho player imo as he's not athletic enough for him even though he's technically superior to players like Will.i.Am and Schurrle.
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That might even solve our defensive problems.
But joking aside I like that setup. I also think Mata should be put in the center with Rooney and Januzaj on the wings but with the freedom to interchange and drift around for all three players, also keep them fairly narrow and have the FBs go forward to provide some width while Fletch and Carrick shield the defense. Sounds like a solid plan but I doubt we will see something like this.
We need runners anyway? That gaping hole in midfield won't plug itself.
Incorrect. Mourinho picks front men that are solid and work hard off the ball. It's why Mata didn't feature much under him.
I think we fully intend to change the way we play. Being able to unleash our attackers such as Mata, Januzaj, Rooney and RVP all at the same time will require mobile midfielders that are strong defensively. Once we get those in the we'll hopefully see some quality football being played once again. Until then we'll more often than not see the likes of Valencia included to add a bit of solidity to our midfield.
It's the means to an end.
Not really. They still have players who don't do as much defensively, its not like mata does nothing. He's done more then any of our other attacking players other then Rooney, Valencia or young, but the latter two do nothing going forward. You have to find a balance in your team but everyone has a player, even two players that don't need to put in a shift defensively because the team is built around them going forward. Ribery and robben used to be seen as players who do nothing defensively and then they put in great shifts all around vs Barca, heynckes didn't drop them for defensive players. He just told them they needed to be fully focused defensively for those 2-3 times a season where you aren't expected to dominate the game.
That's what I would like to see us go with, with the three behind Van Persie all preferring to operate in central roles they could easily mix it up and interchange. The major width will then come from the fullbacks, particularly with Rafael and Evra both being effective at getting forward. That way it's not like we are shoving Rooney or Mata onto the wings either, so I can't see a reason as to why they would feel frustrated with that system.
As you say it highlights the need for an additional holding/defensive midfielder but that is already a very good team on paper. It will take time for the players to adapt and adjust to the new system but if Moyes looks to start integrating this now then at least we will be able to see his vision for the team going forward which will help the fans (and probably the board) be more prepared to give him time.
This pretty much. The seasons already a write off, so why doesn't he start to plan for the future already and start changing the philosophy and move the team to a better tactic? It'll take time to adapt to it but it's not like it could go worse then it is right now. We've got nothing to lose and everything to gain if we start changing the tactic and adapting the team to pretty much what most of us on here want, something that other top teams already have.
Pretty sure one of the main reasons, why Robben was benched for large parts of last season, was his lack of workrate in defense. He only became a starter again when Kroos got injured and since then he really works hard in defense in almost every game (not only against Barca). It's really impressive, imo. It's not only tracking back, he does his part in pressing and I've seen him run back to help his fullback several times this season. No one in the team is given freedom in terms of defensive work, it really is 11 players attacking and 11 players defending all the time.
Obviously the recent bayern team is more of a unique scenario but he was making it sound like mata does absolutely nothing defensively, which just isn't true. He works hard and does his fair share of it, just for mourinho he liked Oscar more because Oscar is one of the best in the league at pressing high up the pitch. Anyways, the point is, yes managers do like having hard working players up front but they won't sacrifice their attacking abilities for it like we do with young and Valencia.
But yes, robben's change after kroos got injured last season was remarkable. I really didn't think he had it in him to be like that but he roved everybody wrong.
I've been thinking, 27mil for fellaini and 37 mil for Mata. Would 64 mil for Fabregas have been enough for Barca to let him go and would he have made a bigger impact on Moyes fortunes this season?
Would just that one signing made the difference?
Would just that one signing made the difference?
David Silva helps Juan Mata settle in Manchester:
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.../manchester-uniteds-juan-mata-spotted-6673837
Sell him.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.../manchester-uniteds-juan-mata-spotted-6673837
Sell him.
Buy him more like...
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It's funny, I did the same math. I quickly dropped the thought though, as it was too painful.
Backing him to grab his first goal in a United shirt against Fulham.
Random picture of Mata with Strictly come dancing winner. Enjoy.
I'm surprised he tackles so much. He's tackled 6 times in 2 games, RVP has tackled 5 times in over 1000 mins. He's got the 2nd highest tackle per game stat in our squad.
#surprised
#surprised
Doesn't matter what he can't do or doesn't do, what matters is what he can do and does do.
Apart from the fact that he's a fairly regular goalscorer for a midfielder he passes the ball beautifully, glides gracefully through the midfield and totally outplays other midfielders. He also has an eye for gaps in tight defences which enables him to provide delightful through balls which can be turned into super slick assists and give endless hope to our strikers.
Mata can do no wrong in my eyes....just so you know.
Apart from the fact that he's a fairly regular goalscorer for a midfielder he passes the ball beautifully, glides gracefully through the midfield and totally outplays other midfielders. He also has an eye for gaps in tight defences which enables him to provide delightful through balls which can be turned into super slick assists and give endless hope to our strikers.
Mata can do no wrong in my eyes....just so you know.
His defensive contribution is underrated imo. Not just tackles either. He presses, closes people down and takes up positions to limit the oppositions passing options. I'd rather Mata over the 'defensive wingers' any day.
Regardless, we haven't bought him to defend. I don't judge Evans on assists.
We bought him to play in midfield. Believe it or not, midfielders are judged by their ability on the ball AND their ability to win it back.
Attacking midfield, there's a difference.
No shit, sherlock.
The fact remains. A midfielder who is good at winning the ball back when we lose it is a valuable asset to the team, whenever we're not in possession.
Surely that's so obvious it doesn't need spelling out?
Obviously, but it's not something I'm gonna openly seek Mata to be involved in. He wasn't brought in to win the ball back. No need to be so patronizing.
Mourinho has a certain style for his team that simply didn't suit him. It's high pressing, fast counter attacking. Mata isn't a speed merchant or anything but he doesn't need to. He really works for the team and Mourinho just wanted more work rate. It's why we've seen Ramires on the 10 in big games. Even more hard work than Oscar with being deadly on the wings. That's simply not Matas style and he shouldn't be compared to them.
He is a great piece of a puzzle that Moyes needs to find out how to use with Rooney and RvP to get the best picture out of it. If he wants to play Mata as a winger he'll fail. There are no excuses anymore ultimately this EPL season will live or fall with the usage of Mata.
He is a great piece of a puzzle that Moyes needs to find out how to use with Rooney and RvP to get the best picture out of it. If he wants to play Mata as a winger he'll fail. There are no excuses anymore ultimately this EPL season will live or fall with the usage of Mata.
Let's see how long Pogue lasts on here under the new rules, where he can't just belittle every poster whose opinion he disagrees with.
Nobody is openly seeking him to do anything. Just pointing out that he does a lot of good work, defensively. We're not exactly stacked with ball-winners, so this is clearly a good string to have to his bow.
I genuinely don't understand why you felt the need to imply this attrribute is irrelevant or not worthy of discussion. Hence the patronising response.
Mata does a good job of closing down and applying pressure to defenders on the ball. The attacking players defensive duties are not really about winning the ball back but applying the right pressure so that the next defensive line can win the ball back. If Mata runs the right defensive lines and forces defenders on the ball towards tight situations they can help force a defender to pass the ball to a team mate that is going to be shut down quickly by our midfield. In the short amount of time he has been playing for us my impression was that he had done that well despite not yet having been with us long enough to have built up a huge amount of intuitive understanding of his team mates work and positioning.
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