Who here hopes United get spanked tonight?

For the record, if I didn't think Moyes had potential as a long term manager for United I would have no problem hoping for a heavy defeat tomorrow.

It's only one game and the long term health of the club is what matters most. A stay of execution would only prolong the pain. Couldn't care less if people think this somehow makes me less of a fan.
 
Kaos said:
Actually the sooner he's shown the door the better. The earlier we can get a new manager in the quicker he can get acquainted with the players, rectify our dour football and start planning for summer transfers during a world cup summer.
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I don't think we'd able to get a manager in who is good enough at this point. Off the top of my head, Hiddink is the only one I think is free. Come the summer it will be easier to get the right manager in. And even then I don't think it will take that long for a manager to get acquainted with our players. Most of very well known and have been around for years. A good quality manager could come in and change the way we play very easily I feel. Fine tuning it will take time but a mere glance at our squad is enough to identify our problems. Couple that with the work that has been going on by Woodward and our scouting team and transfer targets could be chosen quickly. The only problem is that it's a World Cup year so everything is likely to get pushed back.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Eh? There's no trap. It's a simple question.

The only accusation I've made against anyone is of being irrational. I stand by that.

I haven't commented on status as a fan. Stop being a drama queen.

Again.
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Give over. The entire purpose of this thread was to find fans who'd admit to wanting us to lose to highlight the stupidity not supporting Moyes. When that didn't happen, you resorted to claiming your strawmen were idiots for not following the logical means=ends conclusions of their beliefs (or claim they were lying)

They couldn't win either way. You'd already made up your mind, and any answer you'd flame them for.

The actual thread title should be "Whose high horse is bigger than my high horse?"
 
FlawlessThaw said:
I don't think anyone has rooted against the team. The point of the thread is that they are probably acting irrational by wanting Moyes out and also supporting the team. You can apparently only do one or the other..
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Point is, Moyes has only been well beaten once this season, at Etihad like every other team. Every other match has been very close, usually a lucky win for the other team, or often a great defensive performance from the other team coupled by good counter attacking and bad defending from us leading to a 1-goal loss. The point of this thread, if you read it, is that OP hopes we stop barely losing/barely drawing games and start losing 5-0 because then moyes might be sacked like AVB and we can finally get a european manager that he wanted all along in who will sell half our team and play the tiki taki we can wank over
 
@Pogue

Do you realise how irrational being a football fan is full stop?

There is always a slight possibility that Moyes can turn it round. I have nothing against him theoretically it is just in practice that he as turned out to be awful. If he can pick up a couple of wins in our next few games against the top four that will show something very positive. He can start to prove himself in any game and against Le Arse is a good place as any for him to do that
 
Flandall Ragg said:
Not sure, I think a heavy defeat like 3 or 4 -0 could be the end of Moyes.
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You forget how stubborn SAF is, this is the guy who kept playing Kleberson, Djemba-Djemba and Bellion for a couple seasons, Moyes is his choice, his guy, even if he hadnt seen us falling to 7th (and probably finish up even lower ! by seasons end) he will champion him on for a good while yet.
 
I don't want us to lose, even if it means he is sacked. If we do, and he is then so be it, but i would never want either of those to happen.
 
Dominos said:
Honestly, if it was guaranteed we get a new manager in if we take a beating tomorrow, I'd take it.

As it happens, we could lose every game for the rest of the season and he'd still keep his job, so there's little point in hoping for anything other than a United win.
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Good man. At least you're honest. No guarantees though. A defeat won't mean a new manager tomorrow. It almost certainly speeds up the inevitable departure of Moyes though. Is that not good enough for you?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
For the record, if I didn't think Moyes had potential as a long term manager for United I would have no problem hoping for a heavy defeat tomorrow.

It's only one game and the long term health of the club is what matters most. A stay of execution would only prolong the pain. Couldn't care less if people think this somehow makes me less of a fan.
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It doesn't make you less of a fan, just questions your character in other ways
 
Mr. MUJAC said:
There are basically three camps.

1. Get rid of Moyes now
2. Give him time to see how it pans out
3. They think he is the right manager

Regardless of which camp you are in, the Directors have given him a 6-year contract and the chances of him going in the next two seasons are remote. They will give him money in the summer to strengthen the squad and then at least one season to see progress.

That means anyone in Camp 1 has a few choices.

a) continue whining like a child for the next two years
b) go support someone else
c) get behind the manager and team

Hoping that the team lose is the weirdest type of 'support' I can imagine and smacks of playground tantrums when someone doesn't get their own way.

But my experience tells me this forum is full of childlike behaviour so I'm expecting a)

Not sure how many anti-Moyes threads we have going on here but it's "the definition of stupidity" in action.
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Well said.
 
Crashoutcassius said:
Point is, Moyes has only been well beaten once this season, at Etihad like every other team. Every other match has been very close, usually a lucky win for the other team, or often a great defensive performance from the other team coupled by good counter attacking and bad defending from us leading to a 1-goal loss. The point of this thread, if you read it, is that OP hopes we stop barely losing/barely drawing games and start losing 5-0 because then moyes might be sacked like AVB and we can finally get a european manager that he wanted all along in who will sell half our team and play the tiki taki we can wank over
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Obviously Moyes in a past life was a horrible person hence all the bad luck he is getting right now. I think you have missed the point of the OP which was to root out fans who want us to lose tomorrow in some vague way to get rid of a manager they don't like or if not then point out some banal hypocrisy.

It has absolutely nothing to do with luck or the defending or the weight of the defeats.
 
Mockney said:
Give over. The entire purpose of this thread was to find fans who'd admit to wanting us to lose to highlight the stupidity not supporting Moyes. When that didn't happen, you resorted to claiming your strawmen were idiots for not following the logical means=ends conclusions of their beliefs (or claim they were lying)

They couldn't win either way. You'd already made up your mind, and any answer you'd flame them for.

The actual thread title should be "Whose high horse is bigger than my high horse?"
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Yes. Mockney. I'm the one building straw men. Not you.

I suggest you re-read both of our posts in this thread. And then look up the definition of a straw man argument.
 
Mockney said:
So you make a deliberately leading OP, specifically to try and catch out fans into saying how rubbish they are as fans, and when they don't all jump into your trap you call them irrational hypocrites?

This entire thread is just an elaborate way of you saying "Fans who are anti-Moyes are wrong/stupid/crap/spoiled etc"

Again
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Indeed.
 
BennyBlanco said:
You forget how stubborn SAF is, this is the guy who kept playing Kleberson, Djemba-Djemba and Bellion for a couple seasons, Moyes is his choice, his guy, even if he hadnt seen us falling to 7th (and probably finish up even lower ! by seasons end) he will champion him on for a good while yet.
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I think you should check their appearance stats. All 3 were very sporadic and certainly did not keep getting picked
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Obviously Moyes in a past life was a horrible person hence all the bad luck he is getting right now. I think you have missed the point of the OP which was to root out fans who want us to lose tomorrow in some vague way to get rid of a manager they don't like or if not then point out some banal hypocrisy.

It has absolutely nothing to do with luck or the defending or the weight of the defeats.
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"As we saw at Spurs, humiliating defeats against long term rivals can be the straw that breaks the camel's back for owners that have doubts about their manager. If we're 100% certain that Moyes won't succeed then it's all about the end game. Getting rid as soon as possible. A heavy defeat against Arsenal will help this process along. Especially in the context of recent humiliations. Short term pain, long term gain."

Surely this is about the weight of the defeats increasing so moyes can be sacked. What part am I misunderstanding
 
Both teams are going in wounded. I'm expecting incredibly cagey performances and one goal deciding it. So one nil (or in this instance 0-1) to the champions.

If we pull it off, or do better than I imagine, I'll have the same renewed hope that I had after our Christmas matches, and after we signed Mata. Though actually the same "renewed hope" answer would apply even if a 1-0 went the other way, because it would mean that we'd picked ourselves up again and just been unlucky about a goal either way.

If we get beat "properly" then nothing changes. No renewed hope, just a continuation of the vague idea that we should be able to see an improvement on the pitch, before the end of the season, if Moyes is the right man for the job.
 
witch quality of Moyes gives you all the impression that he can turn this miraculously around ?
maybe its his sideline clapping :)
 
We're much more likely to beat Arsenal than get spanked by them, imo.

And some of the piety in this thread is fascinating to observe. There are genuinely fans who believe themselves to be better than others on here because they hold opposing views, like anyone who wants Moyes out right now should be looked upon with disdain.

Whatever happened to actual debate and the exchanging of views without beliittlement and thinly veiled ad hominems?
 
Crashoutcassius said:
"As we saw at Spurs, humiliating defeats against long term rivals can be the straw that breaks the camel's back for owners that have doubts about their manager. If we're 100% certain that Moyes won't succeed then it's all about the end game. Getting rid as soon as possible. A heavy defeat against Arsenal will help this process along. Especially in the context of recent humiliations. Short term pain, long term gain."

Surely this is about the weight of the defeats increasing so moyes can be sacked. What part am I misunderstanding
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They key sentence to it all, asking United fans this: "So... Cards on the table. Who's rooting for the gooners?"
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Obviously Moyes in a past life was a horrible person hence all the bad luck he is getting right now. I think you have missed the point of the OP which was to root out fans who want us to lose tomorrow in some vague way to get rid of a manager they don't like or if not then point out some banal hypocrisy.

It has absolutely nothing to do with luck or the defending or the weight of the defeats.
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Correct. Well, almost correct. I think irrational would be a fairer accusation than hypocritical.

Amazed that not one person is willing to stick their head above the parapet. It seems we're an irrational bunch.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Most, maybe, but definitely not all. Unless I've massively misread opinion on here? (Including some in this thread!).

Was kind of hoping to get the vocal minority to have the courage of their convictions.
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Well obviously it isn't all, it's a very small minority who have wanted him out ever since he got the job, but why create a thread aimed at them? It's not necessary, we know who they are, it just seems quite cheap and petty. The most tedious people on this site are the people, in both camps, who think this is a black and white issue, when it's actually quite a complicated one. I think Moyes should be given the chance to overhaul this squad no matter where we finish, but similarly I can see why people think that would be a huge risk to take with a man who has given very little reason to trust him and want him out in the summer if things don't improve. You don't seem to sympathise with any viewpoint that paints Moyes in a negative light, and go around attacking posts that contain any sort of criticism, even when it's valid.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Correct. Well, almost correct. I think irrational would be a fairer accusation than hypocritical.

Amazed that not one person is willing to stick their head above the parapet. It seems we're an irrational bunch.
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Hold on, you just said I was arguing a Strawman for saying exactly that?

:lol:
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Nobody?

Really?

That's a surprise. In the past 48 hours or so I've read dozens and dozens of people who are absolutely 100% convinced that Moyes will not turn things round under any circumstances. With this in mind, why on earth would you want him to hang around a moment longer than absolutely necessary? It makes no sense. Why would you want that to happen?

A good result against Arsenal can only mean a stay of execution. Nothing else positive can come of it. Not in the long term. Quite the opposite. A bad result makes his position more tenuous. Which is what you're hoping for. It's as simple as that.

If you're in the camp that is not willing to accept even the slightest possibility that he can turn things round, why on earth would you hope for a result that delays his inevitable sacking? Just so we can cause inconvenience to another team? Or get short-term bragging rights until the next, inevitable, run of terrible results.

Do you realise how irrational that is?
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What's the latin thing that means exaggerating someone's point of view to ridiculous lengths and then ridiculing it?

You seem to be doing that.
 
elmo said:
Let's forget about the 6 year contract. The Glazers will surely have clauses inside which will allow them to get rid of Moyes if he doesn't perform up to expectations. If he fails to get us into the CL, he's definitely off.
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I can see some kind of performance clause in such a long contract, but I doubt it will have a restriction such as that in it. I half expect the club isn't, or ever were, expecting us to qualify for the CL this year.
 
Brophs said:
Shaddap you face, Simon.
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I was being a dick but I agree, people have ownership of their usernames on here, we are anonymous in real life but not as far as people taking our posts seriously tomorrow and next month are concerned. So yes, people would probably be reluctant to admit they would make that Faustian Pact unless it was done in a way such as Raoul suggested.
 
No id want us to win. Win or lose at the end of the season i think the board will have a clear idea if they want to persist with Moyes or not. One game won't make much of a difference over the span of a season.
 
:lol: this thread seems to have gone horribly wrong.
 
Mickeza said:
Well obviously it isn't all, it's a very small minority who have wanted him out ever since he got the job, but why create a thread aimed at them? It's not necessary, we know who they are, it just seems quite cheap and petty. The most tedious people on this site are the people, in both camps, who think this is a black and white issue, when it's actually quite a complicated one. I think Moyes should be given the chance to overhaul this squad no matter where we finish, but similarly I can see why people think that would be a huge risk to take with a man who has given very little reason to trust him and want him out in the summer if things don't improve. You don't seem to sympathise with any viewpoint that paints Moyes in a negative light, and go around attacking posts that contain any sort of criticism, even when it's valid.
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Eh? I've been critical of him myself. Dozy defensive errors and parodying tactics under SAF are a real concern. I have major doubts about whether he's up to the job. I've also previously said he wouldn't have been my choice.

I am in the "give him time" camp however. Was just curious if the "he has to go" camp had got to a point where this involved any means necessary. I'm genuinely surprised that nobody seems to have reached that stage yet. I thought at least a few would have.
 
1. I hate Moyes but there is no scenario that will ever make me happy to see United lose/draw a match
2. Moyes won't be sacked mid season. There is no way Fergie will allow it this early into Moyes tenure.
3. I don't see how Arsenal can spank us. It will be a narrow win for them. I won't be surprised if we beat them.
 
Flandall Ragg said:
I think you should check their appearance stats. All 3 were very sporadic and certainly did not keep getting picked
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70 odd apperances by the combined 3 spread out over a couple seasons, but I take your point, he still has a history of giving those time, and persisting with new ideas, the switch in 2001 to the 4-5-1 for a good few years as another example of stubbornness, Its a fair criticism to make at the great man I feel, however ruthless he's been at times, he's also shown tendency often to persist come hell or high water.

Mickeza said:
Well obviously it isn't all, it's a very small minority who have wanted him out ever since he got the job, but why create a thread aimed at them? It's not necessary, we know who they are, it just seems quite cheap and petty. The most tedious people on this site are the people, in both camps, who think this is a black and white issue, when it's actually quite a complicated one. I think Moyes should be given the chance to overhaul this squad no matter where we finish, but similarly I can see why people think that would be a huge risk to take with a man who has given very little reason to trust him and want him out in the summer if things don't improve. You don't seem to sympathise with any viewpoint that paints Moyes in a negative light, and go around attacking posts that contain any sort of criticism, even when it's valid.
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Couldn't have worded it half as well as you.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Correct. Well, almost correct. I think irrational would be a fairer accusation than hypocritical.

Amazed that not one person is willing to stick their head above the parapet. It seems we're an irrational bunch.
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Whats irrational about not wanting the team you support to lose and lose heavily? Instead of wanting that a fan of sound mind would hope that we play well, win (maybe heavily) and it'll turn out they are wrong and David Moyes is right.

But no, a rational fan has to hope their own team gets battered. Okay then
 
Mockney said:
So you make a deliberately leading OP, specifically to try and catch out fans into saying how rubbish they are as fans, and when they don't all jump into your trap you call them irrational hypocrites?

This entire thread is just an elaborate way of you saying "Fans who are anti-Moyes are wrong/stupid/crap/spoiled etc"

Again
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In a nutshell. So transparent.
 
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