Juan Mata | 2013/14 Performances

[Trigg]

No it's just lazy criticism by people who can't see the wood for the trees.

Here are three heat maps that prove the argument is an outright lie.

First, the heat map of United under Moyes. Look at the concentration of heat on the right wing, the right winger has been getting chalk on his boots, staying as wide as possible and stretching the play.

Now compare it to Mata's heat map from the Fulham game. Notice that whilst he is nominally starting from the right, the heat signature shows him drifting in and in and in. There is less attempt to get beyond the left back and into a 'wingers posistion' behind the full back as there is to come back into midfield and play the ball.

Now compare this to Mesut Özil who no one is stupid enough to make the argument is playing 'wide right', notice the large concentration of heat, throughout the season, in almost the exact same areas that Mata operated in against Fulham.

And this is in a team whose primary tactic was to get the ball wide and cross it yet Juan Mata, nominally playing from the right, was doing the exact opposite of playing like that. Mata who, lets be honest, you're arguing was a 'right winger' made 11 crosses. Rafael made just 1 less, Adnan Januzaj in 30 minutes made 1 more, and Rooney, Young and Evra comfortably outcrossed him. He also made an equal team high 5 key passes.

So, in a team performance based solely on the tactic of crossing the ball and stretching the play the picture is clear. Mata did not make genuine attempts to get to the byline, he did not cross the ball as much as two players who were clearly playing as wingers (Januzaj and Young) he crossed the ball less than 1 of our full backs, and just once more than the other.

The irony is, that a playmaker playing off one of the flanks is a reasonably modern position, but its being slated as 'shoving Mata out wide' by people who presumably are also making the same argument that Moyes is a tactical dinosaur. Whilst I don't think Moyes deserves the defence it is very obvious that whilst Mata is playing games and we are not winning Moyes will be criticised for how he utilises him regardless of what he actually does.

In comparison, look at the heat map of a right winger in Valencia playing against Cardiff.

Clear differences.

EDIT: feck it MORE STATS.

United average positions vs Fulham

Do I even need to analyse this one or is it becoming obvious that its just an outright lie?

Nice pictures.

He still starts out on the right (or left as he did last night) and drifts giving an unbalance to the team with the way Moyes sets them up. He's best position is centrally for me and paying all that money and then sticking out wide is a waste, just like whats happened with Kagawa.

 

[Brophs]

The main problem with nominally playing him on the wing is that he's not a winger and doesn't want to be. So the actual positions he takes up are much different. Which might be fine in a different team but in one so reliant on wingers it means there's an imbalance there. So when he comes inside and does very little, like last night, you don't only have an under-performing player, you also lose the potential threat down the wing, which is what we're geared up for. But I think the more he gets to know the team and the way we play the more we'll find ways to make it work. You'd hope that would bring about some sort of organic evolution of the team's style even if we don't want to make sweeping changes.

 

[afrocentricity]

Mata the new Kagawa? I dont think so! Kagawas problem has been himself as much as tactics and position, even under SAF he flattered to decieve, and has had notable problems adjusting to the PL.

Mata on the other hand had 2 excellent seasons in the EPL and knows what its all about. Dont worry about heatmaps and meaningless statistics to try and prove something one way or the other, get him doing what he did for us, driving through the middle, playing killer passes to strikers and other midfielders.

The problem may lie in that with Oscar, Hazard and Torres we had 3 pacey players getting on the end of his balls, but then he didnt always require other players he was able to get into good positions and score himself. Although I think it might be unbalanced at first I agree I would like to see you play with him, Januzaj and Kagawa, even though im not sure Kagawa is good enough anymore.

He could be crucial in your next game, unlocking a tight defence, but he needs to stop pushing himself out wide, and passing it harmlessly, its four games in and although he looks the hungriest player, naturally, he looks a shadow of himself, and he doesnt need bedding in time.

His problem with Jose was he was too much of a free spirit, lacked the discipline and defensive duty, it seems Moyes already plays him in this way which must frustrate the hell out of him.

Whilst ive been a Moyes sympathizer over the months, it does frustrate me when you see the same thing over and over even if the results are poor.

If you always do, what youve always done. You'll always get what youve always got.

Give Moyes a call will ya?

 

[noodlehair]

I hope he's not going to be the new Kagawa in terms of any poor performances being anyone but his fault.

Well, so far people seem to be claiming he's playing well.

In reality he's done nothing to even remotely justify Januzaj dropping down the pecking order to make room for him. If anything this has made us a weaker team.

 

[prarek]

For the first three games Mata was our best offensive player, created more chances than anyone although that's not saying much. He also rarely wastes possession and has put in a fair bit of defensive shift.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

There is no comparison between Mata and Kagawa. Mata has been infinitely better in the short time he's been here...with the same terrible tactics.

He's simply the better player who has more quality to have an impact on a team that isn't playing well rather than needing everyone else in their element to play well.

 

[Donaldo]

Moyes is definitely not the man to get the best out of Mata.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Moyes is definitely not the man to get the best out of Mata.

Difficult to say since Moyes currently isn't getting the best out of anyone.

 

[RedSky]

There is no comparison between Mata and Kagawa. Mata has been infinitely better in the short time he's been here...with the same terrible tactics.

He's simply the better player who has more quality to have an impact on a team that isn't playing well rather than needing everyone else in their element to play well.

See, I think Kagawa could become a very good player for us if given a chance. But the above is correct. Mata is better defensively, offensively and his passing is better. Kagawa intercepts the ball more often than Mata, that's the only positive stat for Kagawa.

Talking about Mata though, the guy is a beast. 4 appearances and he's already joint 2nd in our assists. Tops the total tacklers per game stat, has the best passing success percentage in 91.3%, has the 3rd highest amount of passes per game, while having the highest key passes per game. The only negative being he hasn't scored, and he has the highest dispossessed stat in the squad (which is interesting because he had one of the lowest at Chelsea).

tldr: Mata = <3

 

[MDFC Manager]

There is no comparison between Mata and Kagawa. Mata has been infinitely better in the short time he's been here...with the same terrible tactics.

He's simply the better player who has more quality to have an impact on a team that isn't playing well rather than needing everyone else in their element to play well.

This. Some have suggested that Kagawa played similarly last season. Well, we were playing a lot better as a team last season too. There is no comparison really.

 

[LR7]

Whilst ive been a Moyes sympathizer over the months, it does frustrate me when you see the same thing over and over even if the results are poor.

If you always do, what youve always done. You'll always get what youve always got.

This has been annoying about Moyes for a while. There were a few early games with Januzaj where you could see Moyes on the touchline telling him to stay out wide (Kagawa too for that matter). And whilst I'm not criticising Moyes' handling of Januzaj, as his progress has been phenomenal, he has certainly shone more as the reigns were loosened.

People were excited about Mata signing in the hope that it'd mean we change the way we play. Less width, more interchanging and more movement runs through the middle. It hasn't materialised yet despite the fact that in Mata, Januzaj and Kagawa we have the players to do so, and I can't see it happening unless both Young and Valencia get dropped or injured (I'm not hoping for that btw I just feel it's the only thing that would force Moyes hand) because the temptation to shoehorn one into every line-up seems too much for Moyes to resist atm. Seeing Mata used as just another way to spread the ball out wide or get a cross in is frustrating and we've only seen a small glimpse of what he can offer through the middle if used correctly.

 

[IhabX7]

There is no comparison between Mata and Kagawa. Mata has been infinitely better in the short time he's been here...with the same terrible tactics.

He's simply the better player who has more quality to have an impact on a team that isn't playing well rather than needing everyone else in their element to play well.

Not true at all. Their contribution is very very similar.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

Not true at all. Their contribution is very very similar.

Do elaborate because I haven't seen it.

I like Kagawa but I don't think he's done any justice for himself for the most part this season. He's given the victim role too easily on here even though he hasn't been given the treatment other players have clearly benefited from.

 

[IhabX7]

Do elaborate because I haven't seen it.

I like Kagawa but I don't think he's done any justice for himself for the most part this season. He's given the victim role too easily on here even though he hasn't been given the treatment other players have clearly benefited from.

Did he get a run of five games in a row once? He did create more clear cut chances in his last three appearances than Mata has. Mata is still new to the team of course, for me, both should be starting for a real positive change in the team's style.

 

[Comsmit]

He's had a very underwhelming start to his United career in my view. He appears to have already been infected with the vile sense of meloncholy and general lack of confidence that has been prevalent in the squad for most of the season.

He's class on the ball, we all know that.....but he hasn't been bought for possession stats, he's supposed to be our creative maestro. Playing him centrally would be a good start.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

Did he get a run of five games in a row once? He did create more clear cut chances in his last three appearances than Mata has. Mata is still new to the team of course, for me, both should be starting for a real positive change in the team's style.

Kagawa had a very clean run at the end of October and the beginning of November as well as at the end of November and beginning of December so he hasn't been a complete outcast. In some of those games where he was brought off it was completely justified because the game was passing him by.

The main issue in the entire team is inconsistent team selections. One week it's Young Rooney and Valencia, the next it Kagawa Rooney and Januzaj, then it's Young Welbeck and Mata...but Kagawa hasn't been able to produce the goods around that whereas other players are chipping in with the odd goal and since Mata has arrived despite playing in a terrible tactical system he's still creating chances and opening teams up. That is the difference, because he's only had about half an hour in his 'best' position.

Kagawa will remain the victim though, despite the fact that in fairness to Moyes it's been a two way street in relative poorness.

 

[Kag]

Manchester United are probably the only club in Europe that would play Rooney centrally over Mata.

Moyes' indulging of the greedy one will sell our record transfer fall short of what he can really do.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Nice pictures.

He still starts out on the right (or left as he did last night) and drifts giving an unbalance to the team with the way Moyes sets them up. He's best position is centrally for me and paying all that money and then sticking out wide is a waste, just like whats happened with Kagawa.

Oh good, so in lieu of a real argument we've gone back to the Kagawa stuff.

Anyone noticed that Kagawa is a Japanese bloke whilst Mata is a Spanish one with a beard? They're different players.

 

[Randall Flagg]

He hasnt been overly impressive at all for me. He hasnt had much football and he is gone under aside lacking in belief. So its not easy

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

There's nothing dumber than a person complaining that an attacking player doesn't put in a enough defensive work. I mean, would you want your center backs and keeper to put in enough ''attacking work'' for example?

 

[Rory 7]

With the playing staff we have for now, Mata should be rotated with Rooney. He won't be though. Because Moyes is trying to keep Rooney happy during his contract talks. So that is a bit of problem really.

 

[Orton]

There's nothing dumber than a person complaining that an attacking player doesn't put in a enough defensive work. I mean, would you want your center backs and keeper to put in enough ''attacking work'' for example?

It's a Manchester United obsession. Defensive work is more important than creativity. That's why Valencia plays week in week out. Mata wasn't bought for his defensive work, he was bought to create chances and score goals. Best chance of him doing that would be to play him in his best position, and have a clue on how to fit the rest of the team around him.

 

[RDCR07]

There's nothing dumber than a person complaining that an attacking player doesn't put in a enough defensive work. I mean, would you want your center backs and keeper to put in enough ''attacking work'' for example?

Wingers do have a job to do though. I am not talking about the player playing as a #10 behind the striker but wingers should always drop back and help their full backs.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Wingers do have a job to do though. I am not talking about the player playing as a #10 behind the striker but wingers should always drop back and help their full backs.

I have never seen any reason why they should. The midfielers should be helping out full backs whilst wingers and forwards take up positions to deny space in center midfield and are hence in a better position to exploit transition in play when the ball is won back. Germany and Brazil use that tactic superbly.

 

[RDCR07]

I have never seen any reason why they should. The midfielers should be helping out full backs whilst wingers and forwards take up positions to deny space in center midfield and are hence in a better position to exploit transition in play when the ball is won back. Germany and Brazil use that tactic superbly.

Why would you want central midfielders to go wide to support the full backs but then the wide players to come in to central midfield?

 

[paceme]

It's idiotic to have players on the pitch who don't help out in defence unless they are just too good. All great teams work as a unit defensively and offensively, splitting the jobs up is what creates rigid boring football.

 

[kouroux]

In an ideal world, we would never have bought him this season. He's doing the best under a difficult tactical context. I just hope he won't regret his decision to have signed for us by next season.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Why wd you want central midfielders to go wide to support the full backs but then the wide players to come in to central midfield?

I explained why already. They'd be in better position to exploit retrieved possesion. And its far easier for them to defend space than the man. 9 out of 10 times a full back-midfieler combo would nullify any opposing winger + fullback coming at them far better than a fullback-winger combo in defensive situation because both are usually vastly superior to wide players at defending.

 

[noodlehair]

There are some people really living in cloud kuckoo land in this thread.

 

[Red Defence]

With the playing staff we have for now, Mata should be rotated with Rooney. He won't be though. Because Moyes is trying to keep Rooney happy during his contract talks. So that is a bit of problem really.

Moyes is frightened of upsetting either Rooney or VP and therein lies one of our problems. We've just bought an excellent attacking midfielder (who scores goals too) and we're using him as a winger. Why ffs? We had three wingers in the squad last night.

Sticking Mata on the wing didn't help us but I'll bet Arsenal were absolutely delighted with Moyes et al.

 

[noodlehair]

Manchester United are probably the only club in Europe that would play Rooney centrally over Mata.

Moyes' indulging of the greedy one will sell our record transfer fall short of what he can really do.

Presumably Chelsea is now based somewhere in North America.

The main problem with nominally playing him on the wing is that he's not a winger and doesn't want to be. So the actual positions he takes up are much different. Which might be fine in a different team but in one so reliant on wingers it means there's an imbalance there. So when he comes inside and does very little, like last night, you don't only have an under-performing player, you also lose the potential threat down the wing, which is what we're geared up for. But I think the more he gets to know the team and the way we play the more we'll find ways to make it work. You'd hope that would bring about some sort of organic evolution of the team's style even if we don't want to make sweeping changes.

Chelsea tried this though, and now he doesn't play for them anymore. People go on about Mourinho just not fancying him, but that's not quite true. He didn't fancy him through the middle, because he felt Oscar was better there. He tried using Mata from wide and he was a bit shite and didn't make enough use of himself there. Much like Kagawa for us, who, despite apparently not being comparable in any way, yours and other people's posts seem to perfectly describe.

He has to play in the middle ahead of the midfield, and he wont, because we don't currently play anyone in that position...and even if we did, Rooney is better than him there, so he'd just end up playing from wide again.

I can't see any logical reason why we felt the need to buy him, other than it being a Spurs style "because he's for sale" type strategy.

 

[pocco]

Maybe Rooney is off.

 

[bosnian_red]

Presumably Chelsea is now based somewhere in North America.



Chelsea tried this though, and now he doesn't play for them anymore. People go on about Mourinho just not fancying him, but that's not quite true. He didn't fancy him through the middle, because he felt Oscar was better there. He tried using Mata from wide and he was a bit shite and didn't make enough use of himself there. Much like Kagawa for us, who, despite apparently not being comparable in any way, yours and other people's posts seem to perfectly describe.

He has to play in the middle ahead of the midfield, and he wont, because we don't currently play anyone in that position...and even if we did, Rooney is better than him there, so he'd just end up playing from wide again.

I can't see any logical reason why we felt the need to buy him, other than it being a Spurs style "because he's for sale" type strategy.

It's fair to say Rooney is better then Kagawa in that position, but mata is on a whole different level to them both playing at the tip of the midfield through the middle. Rooney is a world class striker and a very good player there, but he doesn't have the subtlety, the great technical ability like mata does and that is key in that position. What moyes needs to do for the team is either move one of the strikers to the wing, or put one on the bench, because mata behind one of them is by far our best option overall.
And as you say, we don't currently play with anyone in that position, which is why it's more down to tactics then anything. It's madness that we still persist with this rigid system of ours, always using 2 strikers, when every other top team has already moved on. Moyes and united seem stuck in the 90's with what they think is good, clearly.

 

[prarek]

Chelsea tried this though, and now he doesn't play for them anymore. People go on about Mourinho just not fancying him, but that's not quite true. He didn't fancy him through the middle, because he felt Oscar was better there. He tried using Mata from wide and he was a bit shite and didn't make enough use of himself there.

Mata has already proven himself from the left and right for Chelsea. Out of 94 CL and league games he played 37 times in the center, less than 50 percent.

 

[acnumber9]

Presumably Chelsea is now based somewhere in North America.



Chelsea tried this though, and now he doesn't play for them anymore. People go on about Mourinho just not fancying him, but that's not quite true. He didn't fancy him through the middle, because he felt Oscar was better there. He tried using Mata from wide and he was a bit shite and didn't make enough use of himself there. Much like Kagawa for us, who, despite apparently not being comparable in any way, yours and other people's posts seem to perfectly describe.

He has to play in the middle ahead of the midfield, and he wont, because we don't currently play anyone in that position...and even if we did, Rooney is better than him there, so he'd just end up playing from wide again.

I can't see any logical reason why we felt the need to buy him, other than it being a Spurs style "because he's for sale" type strategy.

I think Mata can play from wide but I agree there probably wasn't any strategy going into buying him. We went for him because he's a good player and a good statement to make. I don't believe Moyes has any special plans in place for him outside of what we've already seen.

 

[prarek]

I think Mata can play from wide but I agree there probably wasn't any strategy going into buying him. We went for him because he's a good player and a good statement to make. I don't believe Moyes has any special plans in place for him outside of what we've already seen.

Agree with that. Ideally we would want to sign a CM and LB but since Mata was available so he probably thought why not. Mata can be an integral part of the rebuilding process so even if we didn't have an immediate need for him he will prove to be a good investment in the long run imo.

 

[kps88]

Mata has already proven himself from the left and right for Chelsea. Out of 94 CL and league games he played 37 times in the center, less than 50 percent.

I don't know why people don't seem to remember this. Some of his best performances last season came from the right when he was cutting in.

 

[noodlehair]

It's fair to say Rooney is better then Kagawa in that position, but mata is on a whole different level to them both playing at the tip of the midfield through the middle. Rooney is a world class striker and a very good player there, but he doesn't have the subtlety, the great technical ability like mata does and that is key in that position. What moyes needs to do for the team is either move one of the strikers to the wing, or put one on the bench, because mata behind one of them is by far our best option overall.
And as you say, we don't currently play with anyone in that position, which is why it's more down to tactics then anything. It's madness that we still persist with this rigid system of ours, always using 2 strikers, when every other top team has already moved on. Moyes and united seem stuck in the 90's with what they think is good, clearly.

I think Rooney's better there. Comfortably so even. If Mata was as amazing there as people like to think, he'd be playing there every week at the moment, for Chelsea.

I do think we need to change our system and go back to Rooney/Mata (or whoever plays there) being deeper though. Even our only half decent run of form this season coincided with Rooney dropping deeper for 5 or 6 games. The only game we've looked half decent in since then was when Kagawa played behind a main striker. It's not exactly a coincidence. Shit midfield, play playmaker ahead of them, midfield becomes less shit.

See this is wherein the point and problem lies though. Even IF Mata is better than Rooney...in fact, lets say for arguments sake that he is, buying him hasn't solved the problem at all. The problem was never that we don't have anyone good enough to play there, it's that we don't play anyone there at all. Signing Mata has actually just made that problem worse.

At the moment, the most tangable effect of playing Mata is that Januzaj doesn't, and that isn't a good thing.

This was my concern when we signed him, but everyone I spoke with was convinced he was being signed to play behind the main striker. I don't get why people presumed we'd do this. Everything about how we've set up this season suggested that was never going to happen...and it hasn't.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

I don't know why people don't seem to remember this. Some of his best performances last season came from the right when he was cutting in.

It shows as well...he didn't look the same player from the left against Arsenal in comparison to the performances he put in from the right in previous games.

 

[Varun]

I think Rooney's better there. Comfortably so even. If Mata was as amazing there as people like to think, he'd be playing there every week at the moment, for Chelsea.

I do think we need to change our system and go back to Rooney/Mata (or whoever plays there) being deeper though. Even our only half decent run of form this season coincided with Rooney dropping deeper for 5 or 6 games. The only game we've looked half decent in since then was when Kagawa played behind a main striker. It's not exactly a coincidence. Shit midfield, play playmaker ahead of them, midfield becomes less shit.

See this is wherein the point and problem lies though. Even IF Mata is better than Rooney...in fact, lets say for arguments sake that he is, buying him hasn't solved the problem at all. The problem was never that we don't have anyone good enough to play there, it's that we don't play anyone there at all. Signing Mata has actually just made that problem worse.

At the moment, the most tangable effect of playing Mata is that Januzaj doesn't, and that isn't a good thing.

This was my concern when we signed him, but everyone I spoke with was convinced he was being signed to play behind the main striker. I don't get why people presumed we'd do this. Everything about how we've set up this season suggested that was never going to happen...and it hasn't.

Rooney's game has become far too focused on looking for the pass out wide for a while now. Every time he gets the ball, the first instinct is to look wide. Having Mata there would atleast change that. I do agree though that Rooney should play there ahead of Mata but its as much because Mata can be effective in a tucked in role from the right while Rooney becomes ordinary when playing anywhere but through the middle.

The problem is that Moyes simply wont drop both young or valencia and play all 4. Have a solid set of CMs behind them and play through the middle with full backs providing the width and Januzaj on the left going both ways.