How dumb of you to rate Kagawa above Rooney. Thank god you've seen the light you foul cretin!Shinji Kagawa
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How dumb of you to rate Kagawa above Rooney. Thank god you've seen the light you foul cretin!Exactly a handfull of chances that weren't converted, that must prove everything...
The fact we could make a ton of videos like that for chances Rooney created and were or weren't converted, is probably enitrely besides the issue.
Kagawa can give a nice cross, but it happens so rarely and its often one of the few thing he actually does in a game. Beside that one rare moment, you never see anything of him in an entire game. He isn't invloved upfront, he doesn't score goals, he doesn't provide a breakthrough in games and he doesn't do half of the work offensively and defensively that Wayne does. Even last year, Wayne played a far more productive season than kagawa, and that was under Fergie were Rooney was being marginalised and Kagawa was getting plenty of opportunities.
Kagawa is a useless player for the PL. Perhaps in another competion he could become a consistent top player, but not here, he doesn't have what it takes, simple as that. Just like with so many other players we have bough over the years, we should learn to see this earlier on and do something about it !
Rooney being better than Kagawa doesn't mean everything. He doesn't make a huge effort to accommodate players coming inside from the wings, and he will always be the reason that we don't play 3 in midfield. For everything good he does for us, there are definitely some downsides.
There are definitely teams in the world who would be better off with Kagawa than Rooney.
There are definitely teams in the world who would be better off with Kagawa than Rooney.
Kagawa is a quality player in his own right. The comparison with Mata was used more as a barometer to suggest how a technical player playing in an attacking position will not play at his absolute best under our style and management.
When Kagawa inevitably leaves, it will be another clubs gain and our massive loss. I will categorically state that now.
I agree with your last point too. It's not helped when you have this belief influenced in the media by people like Gary Neville. It can work in it's own right, but we still possess an out-dated and one-dimensional style. I really don't see how anyone can be against the signing of a player like Mata like Neville was seemingly opposed to.
We should welcome a change to a modern, fluent style where we play regularly through central areas. This 'sticking to our principles with our wingplay' is a load of nonsensical bullshit.
Buying Kagawa was hopefully the start of that for me. A move to a more modern style with technical players who can interchange in a fluid system and play quick one-touch football to break a team down.
It was the one plus to Ferguson retiring, I was excited to see us evolve tactically and perhaps become more stylish.
It's a shame.. Hopefully Kagawa can change Moyes mind in the Champions League games - I doubt it though.
It was the one plus to Ferguson retiring, I was excited to see us evolve tactically and perhaps become more stylish.
It's a shame.. Hopefully Kagawa can change Moyes mind in the Champions League games - I doubt it though.
When it was time to succeed Fergie I too was hoping we would adopt a more modern dynamic attack but instead we got something from a bad 1960s Japanese Godzilla movie.
I hope this topic has come up for discussion in Dubai.
I hope this topic has come up for discussion in Dubai.
I don't disagree but I look at the 4 Liverpool players you mentioned and I see a lot of pace and movement. Rooney and RVP are too slow/immobile for us to play anything like Liverpool. I've also been very impressed by all the hard work displayed by the 4 Liverpool and again I can't think a combination of our 4 working as hard as them.
I think given the manager's backing and coming into form that Kagawa can certainly work hard enough to play that kind of system. But he is lacking some pace and is more lightweight than any of them bar maybe Countinho.
If the issue's hard work, then that's an indictment on the attitude of our players more than anything else (I could go into the whole "the manager is the motivator" spiel but I won't). Movement for me is also really not an excuse with players like Rooney and RVP; they're smart footballers, so if they're not making smart runs there's an issue with either motivation or tactics. Mata, Kagawa and Januzaj, for me, have shown plenty of propensity to move off the ball and create space.
Pace is the one area where I'd agree there's a difference, but even then it's only Sturridge and Sterling. Suarez moves non stop and is very clever and agile, but I wouldn't say he has blinding pace, and Neither does Coutinho. I also think the quality of those 5 players we can pick from is quite far above the equivalent 4 for Liverpool, with the exception of Suarez who's better than any of ours at the moment. So even if, say, Januzaj or Mata don't have the pace of Sterling they're more than good enough to beat the full back and create danger by running into the box.
The one precise element we wouldn't have is the threat in behind the defence that Sturridge presents thanks to his pace; neither Rooney nor RVP offers it quite so much. But, to be honest, we don't have that at the moment either; Valencia and Young have offered nothing of the sort, even though they're picked to give us some sort of "direct threat". If we want to play on the counterattack, we should just go with Welbeck up top. If we expect to dominate possession and come up against a defensive team, then the threat in behind won't matter, and we should definitely just pick any four of Mata/Januzaj/Kagawa/RVP/Rooney.
Edit: Yes, I should have posted this in the tactics thread..
I wasn't trying to excuse our pbs or justify them, just trying to name the main differences between our attacking players and theirs. For better movement I think the players have to do a lot better individually and they have to be helped by our tactics. I believe we could play a lot better, it's a shame we've seen nothing of our true potential so far. We need to start playing a consistent formation in attack, changing the players every other game isn't helping at all. Liverpool play their best players all the time when they're available.
I understand, I was basically saying exactly that — playing 4 out of those 5 doesn't really pose a problem because of the personnel, more because of how those players have played individually so far this season. And apart from a bit more pace at the number 9 position (for which we have Welbeck if we want to play that way), there's no intrinsic reason why these players should work less well than Liverpool's front four.
As for playing the same players consistently, it would be great but only if it's the players we actually want to see — wouldn't want to end up playing Young and Valencia every match.
Bringing it back to Kagawa, I reckon if he doesn't start one of our next two matches, that's that as far as his Utd career is concerned (assuming Moyes is still here in July).
I think his Utd career has been pretty much been over with the arrival of Mata.
His career at United is a real shame. Could have been a great player for us.
Still can be under a new manager who's more progressive in style than Moyes. That said, I see Moyes being given atleast half a season next year regardless and thus Kagawa will be gone by then.
Its a real shame, in the prem alone, Arsenal, Everton, City and Liverpool are top clubs that would get a lot out of him. Insane how we simply cant. For all the love in with Mata, we wont ever get the best out of him either if we continue this style of play.
I remember searching around for youtube clips when the news broke he signed... I had already followed his career at Dortmund and when the news broke that he had signed for us... well, let's just say it is an understatement that joyful pulsations of electricity danced out of my body and radiated me for the rest of the summer.. I was intoxicated and it was an exciting time for me as I knew what he was capable of and I genuinely thought we would use him correctly, I genuinely though Sir Alex wanted to change our style and mix it up more with explosions through the middle. I genuinely thought he was about to feck off the Granny Driller if he wanted to feck about with Manchester United one more time... one of the few times I was proven incorrect.
I stumbled upon this english subbed Japanese variety show during my restless time in the summer and Kagawa was presented as the episode's celebrity guest. He was obviously happy having just signed for the world famous Manchester United, a club revered in Japan. He was 23 and the famous presentator of the show plus the other Japanese celebrities in there, who were not to be scoffed at and normally would have stolen all the glances, were grovelling at his feet (I do wonder how they would behave when they meet him now in Japan... the showbiz world is a tormenting and cruel planet, was Kagawa being ignored by them when he was back vacationing in Japan?).
He was in such a jubilant mood and even confessed that he wanted to have a date set up with a famous japanese actress. He also promised the presentator and the movie star in the show that he would arrange CL tickets for them. I do wonder if he ever followed up on that, seeing as he was barely involved with us he must've been ashamed...
Could he have known he would become a non-factor like this a year and a half later? I am genuinely sad for him and myself. One of my favorite non-United players actually ends up signing for us and now this has come to happen.
If anyone is interested in the variety show, this is part 1:
You're trying too hard now Kevin. It's not funny anymore.
Trying too hard for???!! People to ridicule me with green smilies is not something to enjoy, it is bullying. The more freedom for my posts the better.
I am half Japanese and have followed him since his j league days... I was really hopeful...
Your posts are the equivalent of a once cute and innocent child who said funny things accidentally but has now realised that he can make the adults laugh and as a result has lost his charm.
Anger and threats of bannings coupled with annoying private messages taunting me whilst my opinions are unfairly dismissed are unfortunately the reapings of my intricate sowing skills... you seem to be imagining me as a hero who I am not...
Don't worry, I still embrace your opinion, everyone is allowed that.
I feel for Kagawa. Moyes jacked his swagger, clearly. Mata gave an interview recently where he said Moyes made him feel like an important player immediately on arrival.
Moyes needs to figure out a way to do that for EVERY player regardless of them playing day in and day out. That is how you get the most out of your players. You build their confidence by making them feel important, by making them feel like they are making a vital contribution. If you sap that confidence from them, they play worried and for MOST players (not all obviously) to play at their best they need the confidence and backing of the manager/coach. Otherwise they are prone to playing scared, worried that any bad decision or play will result in the hook.
Moyes needs to figure out a way to do that for EVERY player regardless of them playing day in and day out. That is how you get the most out of your players. You build their confidence by making them feel important, by making them feel like they are making a vital contribution. If you sap that confidence from them, they play worried and for MOST players (not all obviously) to play at their best they need the confidence and backing of the manager/coach. Otherwise they are prone to playing scared, worried that any bad decision or play will result in the hook.
The sad thing about Kagawa is I really think that if he joins another club with a different style he'll end up being one of the best 10s in the world. How he destroyed Bayern Munich with Dortmund in the Cup finale was something I'll always remember. But Kagawa is the kind of player you need to build a whole team around. Not playing as much through the wings and more pace and one touch football. That's impossible with our CMs and wingers and that's why he didn't shine as much as he did for Dortmund. In the last half year for Dortmund he had with Gündogan, Götze, Kuba and Lewa players that were so well suited to this style. That's why even a world class 10 in Mata didn't look that good (but undoubtedly better) for us yet. In the 4-5-1, a 10 can only be as good as the rest of the team. I mean, yes they can produce individual moments of brilliance but to be at their best they need a functioning team around them, what we simply lack at the moment.
Mata is Kagawas replacement. I really hoped with him we would change our style and I'm sure with SAF, he'd be one of our key players by now, but I can't see him stay any longer than this summer. I hope we can use him for Gündogan or Reus.
Mata is Kagawas replacement. I really hoped with him we would change our style and I'm sure with SAF, he'd be one of our key players by now, but I can't see him stay any longer than this summer. I hope we can use him for Gündogan or Reus.
Did Pienaar and Mirallas not come central more often than Valencia does now and Baines + Coleman attack down the flanks?
If so, why is Mata / Kagawa not played like Pienaar and Januzaj not played like Mirallas?
As in, why Valencia? Or is it so he would replace Mirallas had Moyes had him at Everton?
If so, why is Mata / Kagawa not played like Pienaar and Januzaj not played like Mirallas?
As in, why Valencia? Or is it so he would replace Mirallas had Moyes had him at Everton?
Both Mata and Kagawa have spent most of their time infield despite starting on the wings. Its only Valencia that hugs the touchline, followed by Young. On the left, Evra has been the one providing width.
I know that, what I am saying is that with Januzaj on the right surely that would improve Kagawa and Mata's performance.
That is to say, somebody who likes to take his man on (unlike Kagawa and Mata thus offering another dimension to our attack) however prefers to come central too, allowing for plenty of options. When we have two players that thrive on off the ball movement and players running into space then Valencia will only handicap them. Nani and Januzaj from that right flank with their off the ball motion would probably be better suited to a game that relies on off the ball motion.
Did Moyes use Mirallas or Pienaar to hug the touch line?
Screw Kagawa, I feel for Kevin now!
We have to sell him as we need to strengthen in so many areas and he is one of the only players who will leave that could raise any sort of transfer fee whatsoever.
I think Young could bring in more money given interest from the right PL club.
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Good managers use the best of what they have, specially new managers
I can't believe we can't find a good use for a player of his caliber, for all his shortcomings I believe a better manager than Moyes can conjure a better formations that will include him and use him to the best of his ability (and the same goes for many other teams).
Off course you'll have 1-2 players sacrificed for the sake of the team, but leaving him out is baffling, it's not as if our midfield is packed with Zidane and Makelele or a prime Scholes / Keane.
We don't have bodies in the midfield and yet Kagawa still can't find proper playing time.
As I suspected, Mata was used as a winger with occassional license to cut inside, but it's like using a Hanzo katana to chop a tree.
I can't believe we can't find a good use for a player of his caliber, for all his shortcomings I believe a better manager than Moyes can conjure a better formations that will include him and use him to the best of his ability (and the same goes for many other teams).
Off course you'll have 1-2 players sacrificed for the sake of the team, but leaving him out is baffling, it's not as if our midfield is packed with Zidane and Makelele or a prime Scholes / Keane.
We don't have bodies in the midfield and yet Kagawa still can't find proper playing time.
As I suspected, Mata was used as a winger with occassional license to cut inside, but it's like using a Hanzo katana to chop a tree.
In basically any match he's played 'on the wing' his heatmap shows that he's very close to Rooney most of the time. Pretty strange for a 'winger'.
Never mind heat-maps, is it too much to ask that people use their fecking eyes?!?
I agree.I am hoping Moyes will evolve his playing style and that next season we'll have a new approach with the correct transfers in and out and this will hopefully see kagawa improve because right now he can't play in this team and be effective.Mata will struggle too.We have to stop thinking the ball must be worked out wide at the first given opportunity.Use the width yes but seriously we're so predictable.Here's hoping and I like Shinji and if Young,Valencia or Nani stay above him I won't be pleased.
I would absolutely love to see 3 out of Januzaj, Rooney, Mata, Kagawa making up the 3 behind the striker with 2 CMs sitting. I have a problem in that we insist on playing either Young or Valencia. I know Moyes is concerned with workrate, defensive duties etc but why buy Mata then? I would love to see us try this against 'weaker' sides to see if it can work. We might as well, it's not as if our pump it wide, cross, rinse, repeat is working.
You would think, but agenda driven posters tend to see what they want.
I still think Fellaini coming back in the team may open up more opportunities for him.
If we could figure a formation where both he and Mata can get the ball early and drive play it would be the nuts.
If we could figure a formation where both he and Mata can get the ball early and drive play it would be the nuts.
I really like Kagawa because i think he brings loads of creativity and appears to be able to ghost into areas. I think it would be worth a try to play Mata, Kagawa and Janujaz in the same first 11 and give it a real go. They are all technically brilliant and our front men would welcome running onto a pass from them and scoring bucket loads of goals. Chances lead to goals and these guys will create the opportunities for sure.
He is going to be useless for us in the CL games if he doesn't start playing, starting with the game on Saturday. Assuming we progress past this round, Moyes needs to realize Kagawa could play a very important role for us in the CL, that obviously if he actually wants to give it a go.
------ Carrick - Fellaini ------
Januzaj --- Mata ---- Kagawa
----------- Rooney
Just once Moyser .. please.
Januzaj --- Mata ---- Kagawa
----------- Rooney
Just once Moyser .. please.
When's the last time he played?
Against Sunderland in the league cup one month back.
He has started in 7 League games so far which averages to a start each month or every four league games.
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