Using Mata effectively

What about a 4-3-3 with Rooney at the tip of the midfield three:

Carrick--------Fletcher
Rooney
Mata-----------Januzaj
RvP
​
 
Inevitable thread really, with inevitable questions.

Moyes seems to prefer the 442/4231. The only real difference between the two is the depth of the 'deeper striker'. Regardless of which we have played, the wingers have essentially played same role.

Changing the formation substantially would be incredibly dangerous at this point of season, so I don't expect any major change of system. However, I do expect the inclusion of Mata to limit the chances of januzaj, not in a bad way-we need to avoid burn out.
Assuming both roo and rvp fit:

--------------------rvp-----------------
Mata-----rooney-----valencia

Januzaj will replace mata or valencia every now and again, and when rooney is rested mata moves to middle with jan out left. Kagawa will do similar to jan, replacing either mata or roo as needed, with roo replacing rvp. So a hell of a lot of fluidity there. But a lot of this movement isn't necessarily great.

442 diamond/433. Essentially very similar formations, particularly with who we pay:

-------------rvp----------roo------------
------------------mata-------------------
-------clev----------------fletch-----------
-----------------carrick------------------------

Problem with this formation is no use for wingers, valencia/young won't be adaptable enough for the roles of clev and fletch have here.

Not for this season, but perhaps for next?

------------rvp-------roo--------
----------------mata--------------
-------clev---car---fletch-----
W/b--------------------------w/b
----evans/jones/small-----

Most likely is first option, injuries will naturally give other players more time.
 
I agree that the difference between a 442 and a 4231 is mainly the role of the AM/2nd striker. However, the reason why both work or the reason behind how both look in terms of style on the pitch still lies in the way the rest of the team moves and plays.

Bayern's 442/424 hyrbid with Müller was just as fluid and exciting to watch than the 4231/433 hybrid with Kroos and worked a treat against Juve's and Barca's 3 man midfields. The emphasis on who plays that role in the center is so big on here, it's crazy, it's like you expect one player to singlehandedly change the style of play by imposing himself on the game. Well unless you find the new Zidane (and Mate really isn't the next Zidane), you really need to fix everything around that position and then whoever plays there will excel, doesn't matter if it's Rooney, Kagawa or Mata.

If you just want to get through the season without changing much, then just play Mata out wide and hope that his individual class creates enough brilliant moments to win games. An attack of Januzaj Rooney Mata behind van Persie can both be dependent on individual moments or on collective tactical play, which one it is depends on the manager and has nothing to do with the formation.
 
Van Persie
Januzaj ----------------- Mata
Rooney -- Kagawa
Carrick
Evra --- Evans ----- Jones --- Rafael
DDG
​
You knows it makes sense.
 
Ultimately what will get the best out of Mata and in reality some very good to excellent players in our team to play effectively is a big shift in mentality/philosophy.

We've become a team that is afraid to hold on to the ball and try get an attack going soon as we can in a predictable manner which has become easy to defend. Coupled with the singular mode of playing, teams can press us which typically ends with maybe 1 option forward at best usually with only a sideways or back pass on. Once in a while we will up our tempo and there will be more movement by everyone but, that doesn't last long.

Even before Mata, I think we've got some very talented footballers in our team but, we don't make use of their technical skills enough to get them confident to use over and over when the pressure is on. Even at the lower clubs you can see when a manager has a certain philosophy in how he wants them to play, you will see it for extended periods of time regardless of what is happening in the game. Those teams are typically fielding less talented players but, have the guts to stick to the idea. For United so far under Moyes, maybe he does have a philosophy but, fear for losing probably ends up overriding whatever it is. There is no way that Moyes idea is to play at a quick tempo or with urgency 15-20 minutes each match and then just invite pressure.

Mata obviously is supremely talented and technically able but, no formations or personnel will matter in getting the most out of him if we don't start to work differently on the field. Our wide players need to come in more to not only keep us from getting outnumbered but, also provide multiple options over the short range.

For Mata to be effective - whoever he plays with needs to grow a pair that will last 90 minutes. When they realize they are Man Utd players and it is the team on the other side that needs to be scared of them, then we'll get the most out of Mata and the rest.

Formations be damned - get Mata / Rooney / RVP on the pitch together and which ever other 7 out field players we have raise their game.
 
I really really really hope that we play him in the middle.

Creativity in central positions is something we sorely lack, and we have the most creative central player in the PL's recent history... And we're playing him out wide...

Somebody please help me understand this!
 
So far, although it's not his most effective position, Mata has shown hints of how effective he can be on the flank for us. I think if we, as a team, can have more of a patient build up instead of forcing it too much, it will give Mata ample time to find space in the middle of the park where he's most dangerous, thus being able to create more.
 
On the right. Kagawa on the left . Rooney in the middle behind RvP.
 
i was thinking about the Champs League final from 2008 the other day and wondered if Mata could play the Ronaldo role.

In that game, and often that season, we played a kind of 4-3-3. It looked like 4-4-2 on paper but in harder games we played Park, or in the final Hargreaves, on the wing. That meant that they could move inside and make a midfield 3, leaving room for Ronaldo to burst forward and play alongside Tevez/Rooney as a front 3.

Rooney/Tevez have similar characteristics as a pair to Rooney/RvP. Both RvP and Tevez can play really well outside the box as well as inside it, and are adept at pulling to the edges of the penalty box to make space. We haven't quite used RvP that way at United, but he did it excellently at Arsenal.

Of course Mata is a totally different player to Ronaldo. But I'm sure he could play in a fluid front 3 with Rooney and RvP. It would get around the problem of him not being a true winger, but still meet Moyes' preference of defending with 2 banks of 4.

Food for thought, anyway.
 
bishblaize said:
i was thinking about the Champs League final from 2008 the other day and wondered if Mata could play the Ronaldo role.

In that game, and often that season, we played a kind of 4-3-3. It looked like 4-4-2 on paper but in harder games we played Park, or in the final Hargreaves, on the wing. That meant that they could move inside and make a midfield 3, leaving room for Ronaldo to burst forward and play alongside Tevez/Rooney as a front 3.

Rooney/Tevez have similar characteristics as a pair to Rooney/RvP. Both RvP and Tevez can play really well outside the box as well as inside it, and are adept at pulling to the edges of the penalty box to make space. We haven't quite used RvP that way at United, but he did it excellently at Arsenal.

Of course Mata is a totally different player to Ronaldo. But I'm sure he could play in a fluid front 3 with Rooney and RvP. It would get around the problem of him not being a true winger, but still meet Moyes' preference of defending with 2 banks of 4.

Food for thought, anyway.
Click to expand...

RvP and Mata on the face of it lack the pace and work rate of Tevez and Ronaldo so the comparison is kind of misleading. Having said that I'm sure you could fit all three of Mata, RvP and Rooney somehow. They are all fairly versatile and more importantly world class players.
 
If city can make use of silva on the left then we can do the same with mata.

The problem is not what position we put mata/jan/rooney but the supply and support they get from the midfield. Too often they are isolated with only evra or rafael to pass to on the wing.
 
Dracula said:
If city can make use of silva on the left then we can do the same with mata.

The problem is not what position we put mata/jan/rooney but the supply and support they get from the midfield. Too often they are isolated with only evra or rafael to pass to on the wing.
Click to expand...

Indeed not just Silva, but Nasri as well, who shares many of the same qualities. They manage to play well with both on the pitch at once.
 
I think it's about adjusting the system rather than his position. He's obviously not going to take Rooney's slot, not under Moyes anyway. The system right now is rigid and predictable. I think Moyes has favored stability, with a better midfield and defence I hope the shackles can come off.
 
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Rowem said:
Van Persie
Januzaj ----------------- Mata
Rooney -- Kagawa
Carrick
Evra --- Evans ----- Jones --- Rafael
DDG
​
You knows it makes sense.
Click to expand...

I really like that formation, wouldn't be bad to use it as a blueprint for the rebuilding of the team.

-----------------RVP--------------------
Januzaj-----------------------------Mata
----------Rooney--------Kroos--------------
----------------Carvalho-------------------
Coentrao---Evans------Jones-------Rafael
-----------------DDG-------------------

Reserves:
Striker: Welbeck
Attacking midfield: Griezmann, Kagawa, Young, Valencia, Fellaini
Defenisve midfield: Carrick, Fletcher
Fullbacks: Sandro, Coleman
Centrebacks: Smalling, Keane
Keeper: Lindegaard, Johstone
 
I believe we will never truly get the best out of Mata as long as :

1 We put an emphasis on width and 2 banks of 4. Mata is not a prototype winger. He's not the greatest dribbler nor is he a speed merchant. His forte is popping up into god positions using his spacial awareness and creating opportunities for team-mates/ himself. In a way he is Kagawa on steroids, who also has difficulties fitting into our current system. We must let go of the rigidity and employ a narrower formation with quick interchanging of positions. We certainly have the personnel for it. Van Persie, Rooney, Januzaj, Kagawa are all highly intelligent players so implementing it won't be an issue. However the attack will be a little cumbersome due to lack of speed.

2 Rooney plays as an advanced forward. He has to be deeper. If he can't do that we should seriously consider the possibility of selling him or Van Persie and signing a new winger. This one move would solve a lot of our issues provided we get rid of the crossing ethos. We could play a combination of Van Persie/ Rooney as the no. 9, Mata as the no. 10, Januzaj as the no. 7/11 and the new signing as a no. 11/7.

I suppose we could give the 4-5-1 formation a shot too. That would be best implemented by having a reliable purely holding midfielder and the duo of Rooney and Mata playing just ahead of him. But I don't think the coaching staff will be adventurous enough to try such a formation and there might be some issues with defensive stability.
 
Rowem said:
Van Persie
Januzaj ----------------- Mata
Rooney -- Kagawa
Carrick
Evra --- Evans ----- Jones --- Rafael
DDG
​
You knows it makes sense.
Click to expand...

Midfield is too light. Heck, the whole midfield and attack you illustrated has an Arsenal-esque vibe to it in regards to the connotation, that we will be boys playing against men. Moreover, their is little disparity between your formation and starting a game with either Rooney or Kagawa partnering Carrick. It is very adventurous, but Rooney lack the possession based ideology to solidify the midfield area. A better partnership would be Kagawa and Mata next to Carrick in a static holding role, because we can then defend through possession over playing direct 'back and forward' football.

On this topic, for Mata to be more effective, he will need to be played centrally. With other midfielders who have great work ethic and/or are as techinically gifted as Mata. These are some ways to get the best out of Mata, which I will illustrate below:

-------------Carvalho*------------
-------Mata--kagawa/Powell---------
Januzaj---rooney/Persie----welbeck

*Strong holding mid, with great technical ability 'or' an all action midfielder like Jones, who is their to just break up play and anchor the midfielder.

-------------Carrick------------
---------Mata--new mid*---------
Januzaj/Nani----Persie----Rooney**

*All rounder
**Utilize for his clinical finishing, amongst other attribute as a false winger

In such a role, Mata has more influence on the game and would be the decisive factor alongside his partner towards where our line of attack come from. If Rooney plays this role as you illustrated he tends to make the direct pass to the wing which becomes the catalyst of our consistent crossing. Moreover, our lack of intricasy due to his style if play. Playing him out wide in a 4-3-3 is a waste because he lacks the pace to beat a man in or outside a counter. Moreover, he will be less involved with few touches unless our gameplan is to get it to him and dictate the game in that wide right role. Which is uncanny for a technical player like him in such a system. He is much better utilize as a rcm in the 4-3-3 system than as a rw.
 
Amadaeus said:
Midfield is too light. Heck, the whole midfield and attack you illustrated has an Arsenal-esque vibe to it in regards to the connotation, that we will be boys playing against men. Moreover, their is little disparity between your formation and starting a game with either Rooney or Kagawa partnering Carrick. It is very adventurous, but Rooney lack the possession based ideology to solidify the midfield area. A better partnership would be Kagawa and Mata next to Carrick in a static holding role, because we can then defend through possession over playing direct 'back and forward' football.

On this topic, for Mata to be more effective, he will need to be played centrally. With other midfielders who have great work ethic and/or are as techinically gifted as Mata. These are some ways to get the best out of Mata, which I will illustrate below:

-------------Carvalho*------------
-------Mata--kagawa/Powell---------
Januzaj---rooney/Persie----welbeck

*Strong holding mid, with great technical ability 'or' an all action midfielder like Jones, who is their to just break up play and anchor the midfielder.

-------------Carrick------------
---------Mata--new mid*---------
Januzaj/Nani----Persie----Rooney**

*All rounder
**Utilize for his clinical finishing, amongst other attribute as a false winger

In such a role, Mata has more influence on the game and would be the decisive factor alongside his partner towards where our line of attack come from. If Rooney plays this role as you illustrated he tends to make the direct pass to the wing which becomes the catalyst of our consistent crossing. Moreover, our lack of intricasy due to his style if play. Playing him out wide in a 4-3-3 is a waste because he lacks the pace to beat a man in or outside a counter. Moreover, he will be less involved with few touches unless our gameplan is to get it to him and dictate the game in that wide right role. Which is uncanny for a technical player like him in such a system. He is much better utilize as a rcm in the 4-3-3 system than as a rw.
Click to expand...

I think Rooney's passing is underrated. He obviously would never be a possession midfielder but then that's not the point. You don't put Rooney in midfield and ask him to play like Leon Britton. You have him in there to compliment the other midfielders. His passing is as good as most box-to-box midfielders that spring to mind. He also has the strength, work rate, aggression, drive, defensive awareness, footwork, vision, close control, dribbling skill, shooting skills etc etc (the list could go on) that would compliment Kagawa (or Mata's) skill set. It's all about balance, innit. Rooney would contribute to our attacking play whilst also relieving Kagawa (or Mata) of some of their defensive responsibility, so they can concentrate on the old play-a-makin' shtick.

Given greater exposure in the role Rooney would grow into it. On the few occasions he has played there he has shown far more than simply passes out to the wing. He drives into space, plays good one-twos in central areas, and is capable of tearing opposition apart with through balls through the centre (Van Persie volley vs. Villa). Given time in midfield I'm sure we'd see him improving further on his short possession game, plus learning to arrive late in the box. We all know that he has the ability to be a goal threat from 25-30 yards out too. There is nothing to suggest that Rooney's tendency to pass it out wide is anything more than following team instructions, which we all know is built around getting the ball out to Valencia and getting to the byline. By nature Rooney is a very attack minded, forward thinking player with an excellent understanding of the game. He is intelligent on the pitch - he sees opportunities and takes advantage. He is not the type to merely pass the buck. He is as far from a water carrier as you could possibly get. And anyway, his passes out wide are very good. If he's able to get the ball forward to Mata and Januzaj in good positions on a regular basis then that would be very useful indeed.

I can't quite grasp how you think a Rooney-Carrick-Kagawa midfield trio is Arsenal-esque, and then suggest a Mata-Carrick-Kagawa midfield. The latter is clearly more lightweight and more "Arsenal". Having Rooney in there gives it much more power and directness (making it more "United" than "Arsenal"). Kagawa and Mata would be little boys going up against duos like Toure and Fernandinho. So, I think you've shot your own argument in the foot there.
 
Rowem said:
I think Rooney's passing is underrated. He obviously would never be a possession midfielder but then that's not the point. You don't put Rooney in midfield and ask him to play like Leon Britton. You have him in there to compliment the other midfielders. His passing is as good as most box-to-box midfielders that spring to mind. He also has the strength, work rate, aggression, drive, defensive awareness, footwork, vision, close control, dribbling skill, shooting skills etc etc (the list could go on) that would compliment Kagawa (or Mata's) skill set. It's all about balance, innit. Rooney would contribute to our attacking play whilst also relieving Kagawa (or Mata) of some of their defensive responsibility, so they can concentrate on the old play-a-makin' shtick.
Click to expand...

Rooney has great passing range and is more capable of finding penetrative passes than Kagawa, but what I was refering to was intricate passing. I.e., short one two, slow build up and quick ball movement. He would not complement Mata as effectively as Kagawa if playing towards the tenet of 'defending via ball possession.' Rooney and Mata are both capable of providing pentrative and range passes, so I believe a better complement to mata would be a player who has great technical ability, work ethic, and/or ball control ability.

Rowem said:
Given greater exposure in the role Rooney would grow into it. On the few occasions he has played there he has shown far more than simply passes out to the wing. He drives into space, plays good one-twos in central areas, and is capable of tearing opposition apart with through balls through the centre (Van Persie volley vs. Villa). Given time in midfield I'm sure we'd see him improving further on his short possession game, plus learning to arrive late in the box. We all know that he has the ability to be a goal threat from 25-30 yards out too. There is nothing to suggest that Rooney's tendency to pass it out wide is anything more than following team instructions, which we all know is built around getting the ball out to Valencia and getting to the byline. By nature Rooney is a very attack minded, forward thinking player with an excellent understanding of the game. He is intelligent on the pitch - he sees opportunities and takes advantage. He is not the type to merely pass the buck. He is as far from a water carrier as you could possibly get. And anyway, his passes out wide are very good. If he's able to get the ball forward to Mata and Januzaj in good positions on a regular basis then that would be very useful indeed.
Click to expand...

I agree that with experience Rooney can grow into that role and be more dynamic with his passes, but the role would cut of his most lethal attribute of clinical finishing. Mata has better control and can provide the same type of progressive passes. So to balance the squad and better utilize both Mata and Rooney, they need to play in a role that sees the best implementation of their strongest attribute. Rooney as a false 9, can still drop deep. But as a lcm, he would have to be positional aware of his defensive responsibility, limiting his attacking onus.

Rowem said:
I can't quite grasp how you think a Rooney-Carrick-Kagawa midfield trio is Arsenal-esque, and then suggest a Mata-Carrick-Kagawa midfield. The latter is clearly more lightweight and more "Arsenal". Having Rooney in there gives it much more power and directness (making it more "United" than "Arsenal"). Kagawa and Mata would be little boys going up against duos like Toure and Fernandinho. So, I think you've shot your own argument in the foot there.
Click to expand...

I can not recall if I suggested a midfield trio of Mata, Carrick and Kagawa. My first illustration shows that Mata and Kagawa will have strong, technical gifted partner in Carvalho and Welbeck as support and perfect complement to make up for this 'lightweight' pairing. While my second illustration shows that Mata will be complemented by a complete midfielder like Gündogan, Kroos, Barkley, Ramsey, etc who are midfield that can natural defend and attack. These are not lighweight players because they are more than capable of putting in tackles and working hard in this natural role. The team I quoted have too many lightweight players, with Rooney who is unnatural in such a role being the only player capable of showing natural aggression beit, not with acute tackling. So, I still stand by my point considering the fact Rooney is not as strong in the defensive part of the game as the players aforementioned as all rounders. Barkley edges Rooney in my opinion because Barkley has that young enthusiam for the game that Rooney use to have.
 
Its all refreshing yo debate about formations and stuffs in here, but with moyes, it'll gonna be the same boring lump it from sides, specially with baines next season.

For a middle packed attacking playmaker, you will not be playing an attacking fullback. It will make the team too gungho.

If moyes buys baines. I'll be the same play deep cross and pray, with occasional getting fellaini up front on 80th minute.

You hear it first
 
I say we play the way Brazil has played for ages. Make sure our 2 center midfielders are picked to do nothing but defend, and reasle balls to the magic men further upfield, then we give the front 4 attackers free roles. As in play Mata, Kagawa, Rooney, and RVP up top and let them drift where they feel like, as the play combinations, plus pass and move. Allowing them to press high up the pitch to help make it easier for the deep 2 midfielders to win back the ball.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
I say we play the way Brazil has played for ages. Make sure our 2 center midfielders are picked to do nothing but defend, and reasle balls to the magic men further upfield, then we give the front 4 attackers free roles. As in play Mata, Kagawa, Rooney, and RVP up top and let them drift where they feel like, as the play combinations, plus pass and move. Allowing them to press high up the pitch to help make it easier for the deep 2 midfielders to win back the ball.
Click to expand...
Yet again though like the midfield diamond it relies big time on the fullbacks.

Brazil back then had 2 absolute machines in Carlos and Cafu. Rafael can fit that role but it asks a lot of the aging Evra.

Certainly would be worth a try though.
 
Adam-Utd said:
Yet again though like the midfield diamond it relies big time on the fullbacks.

Brazil back then had 2 absolute machines in Carlos and Cafu. Rafael can fit that role but it asks a lot of the aging Evra.

Certainly would be worth a try though.
Click to expand...
We will replace Evra eventually. What I like about the system is it gives opponents too much to think about defensively if you have the rigth magic men upfield.
 
Let Rooney and RVP compete for the lone striker position. If either of them catch feelings, they can feck off

Let Mata and Kagawa compete for the number 10 position

Let Januzaj and Nani (when he returns) hold the wide positions, to give us the option of stretching play when needed

Depending on who is injured/rested, the loser for striker position and the number 10 position can be positioned out wide, or in their natural position, when the number 1 choice is being rested

Valencia and Young can sit on the bench until their form improves.
 
Amadaeus said:
Midfield is too light. Heck, the whole midfield and attack you illustrated has an Arsenal-esque vibe to it in regards to the connotation, that we will be boys playing against men. Moreover, their is little disparity between your formation and starting a game with either Rooney or Kagawa partnering Carrick. It is very adventurous, but Rooney lack the possession based ideology to solidify the midfield area. A better partnership would be Kagawa and Mata next to Carrick in a static holding role, because we can then defend through possession over playing direct 'back and forward' football.

On this topic, for Mata to be more effective, he will need to be played centrally. With other midfielders who have great work ethic and/or are as techinically gifted as Mata. These are some ways to get the best out of Mata, which I will illustrate below:

-------------Carvalho*------------
-------Mata--kagawa/Powell---------
Januzaj---rooney/Persie----welbeck

*Strong holding mid, with great technical ability 'or' an all action midfielder like Jones, who is their to just break up play and anchor the midfielder.

-------------Carrick------------
---------Mata--new mid*---------
Januzaj/Nani----Persie----Rooney**

*All rounder
**Utilize for his clinical finishing, amongst other attribute as a false winger

In such a role, Mata has more influence on the game and would be the decisive factor alongside his partner towards where our line of attack come from. If Rooney plays this role as you illustrated he tends to make the direct pass to the wing which becomes the catalyst of our consistent crossing. Moreover, our lack of intricasy due to his style if play. Playing him out wide in a 4-3-3 is a waste because he lacks the pace to beat a man in or outside a counter. Moreover, he will be less involved with few touches unless our gameplan is to get it to him and dictate the game in that wide right role. Which is uncanny for a technical player like him in such a system. He is much better utilize as a rcm in the 4-3-3 system than as a rw.
Click to expand...

I personally don't want to see Rooney in midfield, and I agree with most of what you say, except for this point.

Only because Rooney spreads play, it doesn't mean our wingers/full backs have to cross it. Why not come back and try and create openings? Switching play effectively as Rooney does, drags teams across the ground and tires them out. It can also create a 1 v 1 situation. If we had more effective, tricky wingers, I don't think this would be and issue, in my opinion.

If you watched the Arsenal vs Bayern game the other day, you would have seen how many time Toni Kroos switched play. According to whoscored, Kroos made a total of 22 long balls. Now, this doesn't specify where these passes were, however, if you go on squawka, it will clearly show you how many times Kroos switched the play for Bayern. Xavi, to a certain extent does the same thing for Barca, mostly finding Dani Alves.

I just think it's a bit naive saying Rooney's the reason for us crossing the ball. We, as a team, need to change our philosophy, in my opinion. When we get in to the wide areas, lets not always think about crossing it. Can we try and work it back and play intricate passes through the middle? If that doesn't work, we do the same thing. This is exactly what teams like Bayern and Barca so. It tires teams out so much as it's such a killer on the legs.

Having said all of this, I would personally play Rooney as a false no.9. I personally feel he's got everything to be a sucess there, and has shown that with the very little time he has got to play there this season. More notably against Leverkusen.


My team would be something like:


De Gea

Valencia - Smalling - Jones - Evra*

Carrick

Cleverley* - Kagawa

Januzaj - Rooney - Mata
​


Kagawa and Mata to interchange with each other. Similar to how Fabregas and Iniesta do for Barca.
​
* Players we should be looking to replace next season. I would still have them as squad players, though.
 
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