Using Mata effectively

Revan said:
@Walters_19_MuFc Valencia? :eek:
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At right back, ye. In my opinion, he'd make for a great full/wing back, especially in a 4-1-4-1 formation where keeping the ball and a patient build is key, thus allowing the full/wing backs to slowly progress up the pitch and attack.

I'd put him over Rafael because he's better at attacking and delivering in a cross, and I honestly don't think he's that much worst at defending than Rafael and Evra. That said, if we were to keep the ball better, like say Bayern, Barca, most of the defending would be done to try and stop counters, and Valencia has the pace and recovery to get back.
 
Walters_19_MuFc said:
Only because Rooney spreads play, it doesn't mean our wingers/full backs have to cross it. Why not come back and try and create openings? Switching play effectively as Rooney does, drags teams across the ground and tires them out. It can also create a 1 v 1 situation. If we had more effective, tricky wingers, I don't think this would be and issue, in my opinion.

If you watched the Arsenal vs Bayern game the other day, you would have seen how many time Toni Kroos switched play. According to whoscored, Kroos made a total of 22 long balls. Now, this doesn't specify where these passes were, however, if you go on squawka, it will clearly show you how many times Kroos switched the play for Bayern. Xavi, to a certain extent does the same thing for Barca, mostly finding Dani Alves.

I just think it's a bit naive saying Rooney's the reason for us crossing the ball. We, as a team, need to change our philosophy, in my opinion. When we get in to the wide areas, lets not always think about crossing it. Can we try and work it back and play intricate passes through the middle? If that doesn't work, we do the same thing. This is exactly what teams like Bayern and Barca so. It tires teams out so much as it's such a killer on the legs.

Having said all of this, I would personally play Rooney as a false no.9. I personally feel he's got everything to be a sucess there, and has shown that with the very little time he has got to play there this season. More notably against Leverkusen.


My team would be something like:


De Gea

Valencia - Smalling - Jones - Evra*

Carrick

Cleverley* - Kagawa

Januzaj - Rooney - Mata
​


Kagawa and Mata to interchange with each other. Similar to how Fabregas and Iniesta do for Barca.
​
* Players we should be looking to replace next season. I would still have them as squad players, though.
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I only have a problem with his application of this trait. It is great to switch plays every so often, but when it becomes the catalyst of a style of football that is not working, it starts to become a liability. I recalled a game where Rooney throughout the whole 90 minutes only made three or five down the middle passes to Van Persie. That is unreasonable low for a number 10, who is supposed to be more flexible with his passes. Once again, I have no problem with Rooney's hollywood ball outwide as long as it is productive for the team.

On your team beside the noted Valencia at right back, I really dread seeing Mata play on the left as much as i dread seeing Kagawa play on the right. These players are inverted wide players, not the traditional kind. They are more productive coming into the middle, than most likely putting crosses in with their potent foot. I can not envision a future at United where Mata is more productive in a wide right role because he is isolating his stronger foot in area that would not utilize his penetrative passing ability.
 
Amadaeus said:
I only have a problem with his application of this trait. It is great to switch plays every so often, but when it becomes the catalyst of a style of football that is not working, it starts to become a liability. I recalled a game where Rooney throughout the whole 90 minutes only made three or five down the middle passes to Van Persie. That is unreasonable low for a number 10, who is supposed to be more flexible with his passes. Once again, I have no problem with Rooney's hollywood ball outwide as long as it is productive for the team.

On your team beside the noted Valencia at right back, I really dread seeing Mata play on the left as much as i dread seeing Kagawa play on the right. These players are inverted wide players, not the traditional kind. They are more productive coming into the middle, than most likely putting crosses in with their potent foot. I can not envision a future at United where Mata is more productive in a wide right role because he is isolating his stronger foot in area that would not utilize his penetrative passing ability.
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Like I said earlier, I would prefer to see Rooney in the false no.9 role, however, is Rooney's lack of passes down the middle down to him or our system? Again, I've been doing a bit of research, and according to squawka, it shows that when Mata played the no.10 role against Cardiff, he only managed 1 forward pass the whole game. The rest of them were diagonal balls to either, Valencia or Young who were operating on the wings for us that game. Maybe our system forces players to play it out wide as there's simply no other option.

Now, I mention the system because, the way we play or have been playing, (Valencia and Young keeping the width) it means it would be very hard for our no.10 to find a pass down the middle when there's more or less only one option - the striker, especially against a team who have two defensive midfielders sitting in front of the back four. I think if we started playing with false wingers; wingers who will try and play in between the lines, i.e Silva, it will give our no.10 3 options in front off him, as opposed to one. If we want to go wide, this is obviously where our full backs come into play.

Only because I put Mata on the left side, it doesn't mean he has to play as a 'traditional' left winger. He played on the left against Arsenal and was anything but. Similarly, Silva plays on the left for City, Koke on the right Athletico, Gotze for Bayern, etc, and neither play like traditional wingers. It's all about style of play not the position you put a player in.
 
Just play football that isn't borne out of fear of failing. We'll get the best out of Mata and the rest of the team.
 
I think we are very similar to Bayern if we want to be both in terms of quality and style of each player. Not that we should copy them but it is quite entertaining that in terms of performance we are so far off when on the paper we arent beaten by that much.

---------------DDG
Rafael--Smalling--Evans--Evra
---------------Jones------------
Januzaj---Mata---Kagawa--Nani
--------------Rooney------------
VS
Rafinha--Boateng--Dante--Alaba
----------------Lahm-------------
Muller--Kroos------Gotze--Ribery
-------------Mandzukic
 
Walters_19_MuFc said:
At right back, ye. In my opinion, he'd make for a great full/wing back, especially in a 4-1-4-1 formation where keeping the ball and a patient build is key, thus allowing the full/wing backs to slowly progress up the pitch and attack.

I'd put him over Rafael because he's better at attacking and delivering in a cross, and I honestly don't think he's that much worst at defending than Rafael and Evra. That said, if we were to keep the ball better, like say Bayern, Barca, most of the defending would be done to try and stop counters, and Valencia has the pace and recovery to get back.
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Really?

How many more goals must he cost us before people start accepting that he's garbage defensively? And Rafael is a much better crosser than Valencia although that doesn't say much about Rafael given how shite Valencia has been.
 
Annahnomoss said:
I think we are very similar to Bayern if we want to be both in terms of quality and style of each player. Not that we should copy them but it is quite entertaining that in terms of performance we are so far off when on the paper we arent beaten by that much.

---------------DDG
Rafael--Smalling--Evans--Evra
---------------Jones------------
Januzaj---Mata---Kagawa--Nani
--------------Rooney------------
VS
Rafinha--Boateng--Dante--Alaba
----------------Lahm-------------
Muller--Kroos------Gotze--Ribery
-------------Mandzukic
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Could be quite Interesting if guardiola did take over from fergie instead, and see if he could get the squad playing the same way?
 
He has been central for most of the half, but hasn't been able to open them up

He has not been a winger today, before everyone blames that.

Still new to the side, hopefully his link up play will improve in time
 
He is definitely drifting and being given a free role. Seems Rooney is dropping deeper too with Fellaini moving higher up the pitch at times when we are attacking. Its interesting but clearly we aren't clicking yet and its because players are still assimilating to each other and the new tactics.

Nonetheless, an improvement and it does look like we are controlling the game thanks to Mata/Fellaini/Rooney/Carrick keeping possession well.
 
Glad to see him not featuring on the wing. He's had plenty of the ball but hasn't been that creative with it, would like to see him be more confident.
 
I think this is a step in the right direction.

Now we need the runs in behind. Fellaini's been arriving, but I want to see Januzaj, Evra, van Persie, Smalling making more of those penetrative runs so that all the players aren't facing the ball.
 
He is playing almost as central midfielder, which he isn't. If you want the best from him, you need him around the box, not interchanging with Carrick most of the time around halfway line. I think he is better on the wing than in this pretty much central midfielder role.
 
I enjoyed his contribution to the 2nd half, it starts here.

Was given license to roam. Just like Kagawa, but already you can see he is a step up in quality from that position.

I still have faith in kag before I get killed
 
That's how we should use him. Thought he was very good today, linking up very well with Rooney. Like @marjen said, though, we need more runners in behind now. It's definitely a step in the right direction, though.
 
Amar__ said:
He is playing almost as central midfielder, which he isn't. If you want the best from him, you need him around the box, not interchanging with Carrick most of the time around halfway line. I think he is better on the wing than in this pretty much central midfielder role.
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it's so important that he drops deep imo, at least for now. there's simply nobody in our cm who can control the game. I think we've seen enough now to see that Moyes is saying to Mata "make sure you track back on the right wing, but otherwise do whatever you want". He's been dropping right into midfield because, all season, there's just nothing coming from there. We need to build our attacks from there and nobody else is doing it. We've seen rooney drop deep a bunch of times, fairly ineffectually, and I'd much rather see Mata in there than Rooney. Hopefully we will get a playmaker in the summer and we won't need to see this anymore, but for now I believe he's doing the right thing instead of just pushing on and hoping carrick/fellaini/jones/giggs/cleverly can build the attack
 
I still feel he should start centrally he just seems to drift there quite naturally anyways. But we need a FB on the right who can use the wide space if he roams towards the center, someone who will offer a wide option and with Smalling that never seems to work really well. We def need a second right FB that is good going foward like Rafael, especially if you consider that Rafael is quite injury prone and likes to pick up a suspension every now and then as well. So the rumors of bringing in Coleman are understandable to me and I wouldn't mind seeing him at our club as an alternative to Rafael but selling Rafael if we buy Coleman would be a big mistake imo we need two good players for every position.

Non the less I thought the last game with Januzaj, Rooney and Mata behind RvP looked quite promising. I just hope we can play this combination in a few more games and I have a feeling that we will have a lot of joy with those four pulling the strings in our offense.
 
Annahnomoss said:
I think we are very similar to Bayern if we want to be both in terms of quality and style of each player. Not that we should copy them but it is quite entertaining that in terms of performance we are so far off when on the paper we arent beaten by that much.

---------------DDG
Rafael--Smalling--Evans--Evra
---------------Jones------------
Januzaj---Mata---Kagawa--Nani
--------------Rooney------------
VS
Rafinha--Boateng--Dante--Alaba
----------------Lahm-------------
Muller--Kroos------Gotze--Ribery
-------------Mandzukic
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Jones over Carrick... really?
 
Crashoutcassius said:
it's so important that he drops deep imo, at least for now. there's simply nobody in our cm who can control the game. I think we've seen enough now to see that Moyes is saying to Mata "make sure you track back on the right wing, but otherwise do whatever you want". He's been dropping right into midfield because, all season, there's just nothing coming from there. We need to build our attacks from there and nobody else is doing it. We've seen rooney drop deep a bunch of times, fairly ineffectually, and I'd much rather see Mata in there than Rooney. Hopefully we will get a playmaker in the summer and we won't need to see this anymore, but for now I believe he's doing the right thing instead of just pushing on and hoping carrick/fellaini/jones/giggs/cleverly can build the attack
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Fair point, I just think that he is far more effective in more attacking positions.
 
Rob Bowman said:
Jones over Carrick... really?
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It is a stylistic comparison like I said. Lahm plays a role which is defined more by his versatility as a defender and solid short passing - which means Jones is the most similar to that role.
 
No problems with him coming deep at all. If it helps us build up posession from defence I'm all for it.

It's not like he cannot make his way up the pitch with the ball either. It also means Rooney can stay higher up the pitch too then.
 
Annahnomoss said:
It is a stylistic comparison like I said. Lahm plays a role which is defined more by his versatility as a defender and solid short passing - which means Jones is the most similar to that role.
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Think pep said Lahm was the most intelligent player he's ever seen, dunno if Jones falls into that category
 
The Mitcher said:
Pep's opinion on a player isn't the be all end all of player intelligence.
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it isn't, but given that he sees him in training every day, and he's basically the authority on attacking football today, i'd say there's a good chance lahm is a far more intelligent player than jones, to the degree that jones couldn't be the pivotal player in a pep team like lahm can
 
Crashoutcassius said:
it isn't, but given that he sees him in training every day, and he's basically the authority on attacking football today, i'd say there's a good chance lahm is a far more intelligent player than jones, to the degree that jones couldn't be the pivotal player in a pep team like lahm can
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I haven't seen Lahm enough, nor am I a good judge of football intelligence but I would take what any manager says with a pinch of salt. Still not denying he isn't an intelligent footballer, he damn well is.
 
Crashoutcassius said:
Think pep said Lahm was the most intelligent player he's ever seen, dunno if Jones falls into that category
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Like I said, I was playing with the thought of just how we could line up if we just straight took on Bayerns formation. I dont think Carrick would be above even Fletcher and Fellaini in that DM role as it requires too much movement and doesnt require long passes at all. It was just to show that player for player we arent actually far behind in terms of individual skill. It is nearly all down to the managers choices to use this skill that separates United and Bayern.

I chose Bayern because Mata and Kagawa would be outstanding in those central AM slots in terms of keeping possession and being creative and skillfull enough to create at the same time.
 
The Mitcher said:
I haven't seen Lahm enough, nor am I a good judge of football intelligence but I would take what any manager says with a pinch of salt. Still not denying he isn't an intelligent footballer, he damn well is.
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Lahm and Jones are completely different players really, it has nothing to do with Lahm being a defender so you can put Jones in there too. Lahm is excellent on the ball, has brilliant positioning and is a very calm, and intelligent passer. Not to mention he's capable of running with the ball. He's probably one of the most complete defensive players in the world, and he's shown how good he is in defensive midfield this season. Jones when he plays there is more to do with him being mobile and not being afraid to get stuck in and close space down, but on the ball he doesn't really help too much. We don't have anybody who'd be capable of playing that position like Lahm/Javi Martinez/Schweinsteiger do for Bayern (even Thiago on occasion). Carrick and Fletcher used to be able to but they are way too slow and static these days, more so in Carrick's case at least.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Like I said, I was playing with the thought of just how we could line up if we just straight took on Bayerns formation. I dont think Carrick would be above even Fletcher and Fellaini in that DM role as it requires too much movement and doesnt require long passes at all. It was just to show that player for player we arent actually far behind in terms of individual skill. It is nearly all down to the managers choices to use this skill that separates United and Bayern.

I chose Bayern because Mata and Kagawa would be outstanding in those central AM slots in terms of keeping possession and being creative and skillfull enough to create at the same time.
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Really? I'd probably say Carrick is more suited to that role than the one he has now. It doesn't at all require too much movement; Carrick is a fit player and when you have his anticipation and positioning you don't need to cover so much ground in a short space of time. The tempo Bayern play at from deep is much more suited to him, and i'm sure if Moyes told Michael to keep it shorter he would take it on board and control himself from wildly smashing the ball up field. As for Jones playing there, @bosnian_red summed it up perfectly.
 
ChrisG11 said:
Really? I'd probably say Carrick is more suited to that role than the one he has now. It doesn't at all require too much movement; Carrick is a fit player and when you have his anticipation and positioning you don't need to cover so much ground in a short space of time. The tempo Bayern play at from deep is much more suited to him, and i'm sure if Moyes told Michael to keep it shorter he would take it on board and control himself from wildly smashing the ball up field. As for Jones playing there, @bosnian_red summed it up perfectly.
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I dont think Carrick is a good fit, nor is any player we have though. In my eyes Jones mobility would be more important than Carricks superior passing but your guess is as good as mine. If you consider Carrick suited for the role that just means our team is even closer to Bayerns in quality player for player.

My main point was more that we are very close to Bayern in terms of individual quality and the difference between us and them is Moyes vs Guardiola.

I think Januzaj-Mata-Kagawa-Nani with RVP/Rooney as a striker is actually really damn close to Muller-Gotze-Kroos-Ribery with Mandzukic ahead. Our defenses are very similar too in quality bar Alaba who stands out above Evra quite a bit as well as the DM role we are discussing of course.

Not saying we should use their tactic by any means, just that Moyes has 0 excuses for not performing at that level bar his own inadequacy.
 
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Annahnomoss said:
I dont think Carrick is a good fit, nor is any player we have though. In my eyes Jones mobility would be more important than Carricks superior passing but your guess is as good as mine. If you consider Carrick suited for the role that just means our team is even closer to Bayerns in quality player for player.

My main point was more that we are very close to Bayern in terms of individual quality and the difference between us and them is Moyes vs Guardiola.

I think Januzaj-Mata-Kagawa-Nani with RVP/Rooney as a striker is actually really damn close to Muller-Gotze-Kroos-Ribery with Mandzukic ahead. Our defenses are very similar too in quality bar Alaba who stands out above Evra quite a bit as well as the DM role we are discussing of course.

Not saying we should use their tactic by any means, just that Moyes has 0 excuses for not performing at that level bar his own inadequacy.
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Although I agree it's Moyes' fault for not performing, Bayern is far ahead of us personnel wise. Lahm, Dante, Boateng and Alaba are all far better then anybody we can put in those positions, and then you have midfield options of Martinez/Schweinsteiger/Thiago/Kroos. All 4 of those players would walk into our strongest 11 and make us so much stronger, none of our midfielders would even get any minutes on the bench for them, that's how big the gap is between the midfields. Offensive players okay, Rooney, RVP, Mata could play for any team in the world, and Januzaj might get to that level, but they have an attack to match. Basically our strongest positions, which is the keeper, and front 4, they have equally as good players there (only more experienced and have played together for a while). Pep could come to United but it would take a lot longer for us to play like them, then it did for him to turn them into what they are now, simply because most of their players are in their primes at the moment and they have a complete team all around. We are weak defensively and in midfield, and our attack isn't well balanced with us always using 2 strikers.
 
I guess only one of RvP or Rooney would get into that Bayern lineup? And that's no slight on our players by the way.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Like I said, I was playing with the thought of just how we could line up if we just straight took on Bayerns formation. I dont think Carrick would be above even Fletcher and Fellaini in that DM role as it requires too much movement and doesnt require long passes at all. It was just to show that player for player we arent actually far behind in terms of individual skill. It is nearly all down to the managers choices to use this skill that separates United and Bayern.

I chose Bayern because Mata and Kagawa would be outstanding in those central AM slots in terms of keeping possession and being creative and skillfull enough to create at the same time.
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I just completely disagree with the whole thing. Thiago and Kroos offer so much more defensively than Kagawa and Mata, and Lahm offers so so much more going forward. Nani vs Ribery (player who hasn't been fit for months vs a player in the running for ballon d'or) and januzaj vs muller is pretty laughable too. Alaba is best left back in the world, Neuer is comfortably best keeper in the world. Rafael is probably better player than rafinha but has missed something like 1/2 of our games the last 2 seasons with injury. I'm not saying guardiola isn't a better coach than moyes, just saying their quality is way higher and it's not as easy as just throwing people into positions. Mata Kagwa and Jones in centre mid would be completely overrun to begin with
 
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