Why did Moyes get rid of our backroom team in favour of Evertons?

Brophs said:
Hang on, why would they be yes men? They've worked with him for years and, presumably, challenged him regularly in that time. Aren't the pre-existing staff less likely to want to rock the boat when the new man comes in?
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If they presumably challenged him then it's possible that they also presumably went along with what he wanted without much of a fuss. I cant tell you which of those possibilities is true but I'm just telling you how others referred to moyes' staff.

If we go with the presumption that moyes' coaching staff challenged him regularly while he was at everton? why would the pre-existing staff challenging him necessarily be rocking the boat if they are now part of his coaching staff? Arent they just playing along with the established culture of that environment?
 
afrocentricity said:
See what I mean Broths, you look at a situation and assume the old team are less likely to rock the boat... based on what? I don't know. Others look at it and claim that they have egos and would be difficult for Moyes to work with. Obviously the truth lies in the middle, but we still keep talking in absolutes...
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How on earth is "less likely" an absolute? I've already said above, none of us know. But human nature is such that, in the early days of a new job or a new boss, you're much more likely to be a bit quieter and less willing to be challenging or abrasive. Whereas the Everton staff will have worked with him every day and there'll be less of a 'getting to know you' period.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
So Moyes surrounded himself with "yes men" at Everton, while Fergie's coaching staff at United regularly disagreed with him.

Any evidence to support this claim?
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i have nothing on the "yes men" as that's not my claim but what others have said. On Fergie, it was definitely mentioned with Quieroz, Rene, and Phelan. I'm not sure about McClaren but read it before.
 
Gladiator said:
If they presumably challenged him then it's possible that they also presumably went along with what he wanted without much of a fuss. I cant tell you which of those possibilities is true but I'm just telling you how others referred to moyes' staff.

If we go with the presumption that moyes' coaching staff challenged him regularly while he was at everton? why would the pre-existing staff challenging him necessarily be rocking the boat if they are now part of his coaching staff? Arent they just playing along with the established culture of that environment?
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No. Absolutely not. To be at the level they're at, and to have the success they had at Everton they would have had to be strong willed, strong personalities, capable of providing a good foil to the manager. So I don't agree at all that one is as likely as the other. To what extent is certainly debatable, though.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That's a good - and fair - point.

As always, in almost everything discussed on here, we're all speculating like crazy. And you're dead right that people will always choose to speculate on the scenario that suits their own agenda.

Actually, that's kind of a profound philosophical point when it comes to this place in general. It really is all a bit pointless, when you think about it.

Kind of reminds me why I took that sabbatical...
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:D

Yeah it does feel like that sometimes...
 
I think the appointment of P Nev was more about having a true United old boy in the background. Not a bad idea really, he can lend his experiences of United to the newer generations. Don't really know much about his tactical knowledge though. Anyway that's beside the point, he wouldn't have much to say under a hands-on manager. Not a bad appointment tbf. Bet he's kept on even if a new manager comes in.
 
Brophs said:
No. Absolutely not. To be at the level they're at, and to have the success they had at Everton they would have had to be strong willed, strong personalities, capable of providing a good foil to the manager. So I don't agree at all that one is as likely as the other. To what extent is certainly debatable, though.
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That's an assumption though isn't it Brophs? I'm not saying they were weak but I'm not going to sit here and rule out the possibility that they were more or less "yes men" or that they regularly argued. I know neither. You can take your pick and use whatever assumptions to suit your view but it's important to recognise that for what it is.

I also wasn't saying one was as likely as the other. I was just saying they're both possibilities, not necessarily equally likely. This isn't probability class, this is real life shit homie :p
 
Sky1981 said:
So, human behavior study is idiotic, maybe u should try some advance university class before you label people idiotic
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Why? Opinions can be idiotic, you aren't your opinion, you realise that don't you? If I'm calling your opinion idiotic, it doesn't mean you are an idiot..
 
@ pogue @Brophs

I don't think that we have ever taken anyone into the senior coaching staff the year after they finished playing. I am not sure on that but I can't think of anyone.

I am not saying if Neville is a good or bad coach. From what we know about his attitude he seems like the kind of guy that you would always want on your side.

After watching the class of 92 though, he was always a figure of fun, the butt of jokes. Again I reiterate my point that in big ego world of elite football bringing Phil Neville in in a senior coaching role is not the best idea. Indeed it has turned out that the senior players have not taken to Moyes setup. Could this be a part of it?
 
I'm more concerned at what Steve Round brings to the table more than Phil, Phil is a young coach who is learning, and he knows the club. Steve Round on the other hand is not someone who looks like he inspires confidence in people or frankly looks like he knows what he's doing.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
@ pogue @Brophs

I don't think that we have ever taken anyone into the senior coaching staff the year after they finished playing. I am not sure on that but I can't think of anyone.

I am not saying if Neville is a good or bad coach. From what we know about his attitude he seems like the kind of guy that you would always want on your side.

After watching the class of 92 though, he was always a figure of fun, the butt of jokes. Again I reiterate my point that in big ego world of elite football bringing Phil Neville in in a senior coaching role is not the best idea. Indeed it has turned out that the senior players have not taken to Moyes setup. Could this be a part of it?
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Well he was brought in as a double act, along with Ryan Giggs. The status of the latter in the big world of elite football is beyond reproach.
 
SirFergie said:
I'm more concerned at what Steve Round brings to the table more than Phil, Phil is a young coach who is learning, and he knows the club. Steve Round on the other hand is not someone who looks like he inspires confidence in people or frankly looks like he knows what he's doing.
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Accusations that could equally be aimed at the bloke he replaced. And frequently was.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Accusations that could equally be aimed at the bloke he replaced. And frequently was.
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Yeah by dimwits. Truth is Mike Phelan had been at the club for over 20 years as both a player and coach so he already had the credentials to fulfil that role. Round hasn't.
 
I'm convinced people judge the credentials of a coach based on their nationality.

English coaches= Automatically useless.
Foreign Coaches= Brilliant architects of beautiful game.
 
KM said:
I'm convinced people judge the credentials of a coach based on their nationality.

English coaches= Automatically useless.
Foreign Coaches= Brilliant architects of beautiful game.
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It's actually quite funny that way. Maybe it's just because of the fact that they were with us more recently, but people seem to talk a lot more about Rene or Queiroz rather than McLaren or Kidd - who both did fantastically as well.
 
Jimy_Hills_Chin said:
@ pogue @Brophs

I don't think that we have ever taken anyone into the senior coaching staff the year after they finished playing. I am not sure on that but I can't think of anyone.

I am not saying if Neville is a good or bad coach. From what we know about his attitude he seems like the kind of guy that you would always want on your side.

After watching the class of 92 though, he was always a figure of fun, the butt of jokes. Again I reiterate my point that in big ego world of elite football bringing Phil Neville in in a senior coaching role is not the best idea. Indeed it has turned out that the senior players have not taken to Moyes setup. Could this be a part of it?
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Agreed. Would have worked at Everton with him being a former captain and having more caps than they could jointly muster, but at United? It's a bit odd and counterintuitive to find a chap who wasn't good enough to play with you suddenly being your coach.
 
antohan said:
Agreed. Would have worked at Everton with him being a former captain and having more caps than they could jointly muster, but at United? It's a bit odd and counterintuitive to find a chap who wasn't good enough to play with you suddenly being your coach.
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Have we any idea who the number 3-4 at Barcelona, Real, Bayern, etc, are? Heck, do we know about Chelsea, City or Arsenal?
 
KM said:
I'm convinced people judge the credentials of a coach based on their nationality.

English coaches= Automatically useless.
Foreign Coaches= Brilliant architects of beautiful game.
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It's common knowledge that the coaching is generally of a higher standard on the continent than to Britain and Ireland.

I'm not bashing Moyes for bringing in his coaching staff, he is right to surround himself with men he trusts.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
It's common knowledge that the coaching is generally of a higher standard on the continent than to Britain and Ireland.

I'm not bashing Moyes for bringing in his coaching staff, he is right to surround himself with men he trusts.
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Not sure what you're saying here but how does that relate to the staff that he got rid of? I'm sure you're not saying get rid of people you don't trust... and why wouldn't he trust them anyway? So why is this relevant to the question I posed?

You are one of many to say it so I just want to know what you mean?
 
afrocentricity said:
Not sure what you're saying here but how does that relate to the staff that he got rid of? I'm sure you're not saying get rid of people you don't trust... and why wouldn't he trust them anyway? So why is this relevant to the question I posed?

You are one of many to say it so I just want to know what you mean?
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The fact is we don't really know who let known they weren't in Moyes' plans or who decided to leave on their own. We've had so many contrasting reports.

Also, the club has a wage structure. We couldn't have Ferguson's backroom staff and Moyes' backroom staff employed together.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
The fact is we don't really know who let known they weren't in Moyes' plans or who decided to leave on their own. We've had so many contrasting reports.
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From what we do know, they were told they were surplus to requirements. Judging by the fact that Moyes or anyone else hasn't come out and said that they are lying (not that he has to), I'd tend to believe their account of events.

KiD MoYeS said:
Also, the club has a wage structure. We couldn't have Ferguson's backroom staff and Moyes' backroom staff employed together.
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Of course we could... don't be silly. If we wanted to and they wanted to we could keep them both on, it would be less than the 20 mill we are about to write off this season. 1, 2 or 3 staying on would have been better than none imo...
 
KiD MoYeS said:
We could, but we won't. There's a structure within Manchester United. We won't go out and bring in dozens and dozens of first team backroom staff.
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Bollocks, if he wanted that who was going to tell him no? You're pulling that one out of your arse... and nobody said dozens either.
 
Anyway, it's a pointless debate because we don't know if Moyes got rid. We've had so many contrasting reports.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
:lol: If you honestly think the club is allowed as many backroom staff as Moyes wants.
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So you think if he says he want to rehire Rene or Quieroz next week, someones going to turn around and say no?
 
KiD MoYeS said:
Obviously not, but we couldn't have kept Ferguson's entire backroom staff AND Moyes'.
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What are you even talking about? You've been in this thread from the beginning so you know that we have all been talking about 1-3 people...

KiD MoYeS said:
Anyway, it's a pointless debate because we don't know if Moyes got rid. We've had so many contrasting reports?
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You already said that, but what contrasting reports. They themselves pretty much say they were fired, who is saying they weren't? Post it here...
 
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Pogue Mahone said:
Well, exactly. I asked a similar question a few posts back (was asking about previous number 3's at United). Unsurprisingly, it got ignored.
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Come on Pogue you seem to want to cling on to whatever you can grab in these debates. Fergie never seemed to have a number three on the touchline, it was usually him and his assistant. In recent years though Phelan (pre assistant) and Meulensteen could have been considered number threes, it is simply a loose term for the most senior coaching member outside of the manager and assistant.

Moyes likes to be the meat in a Round - Neville sandwich on the touchline. Phil Neville is obviously a very senior part of Moyes's coaching staff. You have another Neville playing the third man on the bench for England too. Hodgson is the manager, Lewington the assistant but Gaz Neville is very active on the touchline and obviously plays an important role.
 
afrocentricity said:
What are you even talking about? You've been in this thread from the beginning so you know that we have all been talking about 1-3 people...


You already said that, but what contrasting reports. They themselves pretty much say they were fired, who is saying they weren't? Post it here...
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Look, this is obviously something you feel a lot stronger about than me. I would've maybe liked Moyes to have brought more imagination into the coaching setup, which he still may do. But perhaps it was time for change with regards Meulensteen and Phelan, sure half the time Phelan was here he was ridiculed.
 
I still find the whole idea that one of Fergie's people inside Moyes's team would have made much difference. Moyes surely knows how he wants to play and as we've seen at Everton, he and his team do have the ability to make the team play like that. Does anyone really think a Phelan or a Rene telling Moyes 'No, we should play a totally different brand of football' would have made any difference? Seriously?
 
It would be wrong for Moyes to simply ride the Ferguson wave and keep the surf board where it was.
 
Hey, you two could be right. I just think the fact that SAF advised him to keep them on, and the fact that makes sense to me, leads to believe there's a slight chance things could have gone a bit smoother than they have, but like you say. What do I know?

I posed the question because I wanted people to convince me it was right thing to do, still waiting for that solid argument. Usually it's just 'feelings' and 'Meh, that's how it's usually done'.
 
afrocentricity said:
Hey, you two could be right. I just think the fact that SAF advised him to keep them on, and the fact that makes sense to me leads to believe there's a slight chance things could have gone a bit smoother than they have, but like you say. What do I know?

I posed the question because I wanted people to convince me it was right thing to do, still waiting for that solid argument.
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It'd certainly help if were performing anyway.
 
Yup, like I said in another thread... I'm going to watch some season reviews and pretend this isn't happening.
 
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