Do you think that might explain why he has 0 assists?
Shinji Kagawa
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Do you think that might explain why he has 0 assists?
No. Not at all. Does his cross suddenly not count because it was turned in by another player?
Do you not know what an assist is?
A moment of play that leads to a goal?
Could have just said no
You still dont realise you cant get an assist for an own goal?
Why not? That's a pretty arbitrary rule.
That's like saying Kagawa should have gotten an assist from Valencia's goal in the Leverkeusen game because it was a tap in off a save from a Kagawa shot that almost went in. Or last season, when he danced around three players on the edge of the box and hit the post, then RVP scored off the rebound. Those would count as assists in your book right?
If the above were true, some players would have many many more assists than they're credited for.
Ekeke/Cal speaketh the truth. Young has zero assists in the EPL this season.
Yeah I'd say they counted as assists as well to be honest. If it doesn't it goes to show how shite these statistics are.
I didnt make the rules. But this is obviously why Young has none this season.
It doesn't mean he didnt put in a good cross. It doesn't mean that he hasnt put in a single good cross from the 70 odd that he's put in this season. But in terms of assists, he has 0
In which case it makes a mockery of the stats. He deserves two assists. One for that cross and one for his penalty win against Palace when he was clean through. Ideally he would have got one when Lloris literally karate kicked him but somehow we didn't get a penalty for that. These are all moments that can win games (all tight games) so to ignored them hiding behind stats is pretty laughable.
Tbh I don't think we should look purely at stats considering a page or so back there's a video showing almost the pointlessness of stats because you could be creating just fine but your team mate messes up the chance and you could be a striker continually getting yourself in the right place but the ball doesn't come to you because of the lack of quality in service.
That said similarly to comparing Kagawa and Valencia's performances , with Young/Valencia both aren't particularly fair imo becuase that's not Kagawa's favored position. He can play there and has for other teams as well but its not his favored role and certainly not in the way we've had him do it, personally whilst I know he's had some freedom I wouldn't say its been at the level Mata has. Where as our team all season has been set up perfectly for Young/Valencia, there really isn't much more we could do to help them get the ball in good positions and with appropriate support.
So their lack of effectiveness in many more games than not is worse than Kagawas. Ultimately they've all been disappointing but as I said I'd say its worse for young/valencia who are playing in their favored roles and in a league that they know completely, too a player who hasn't been often playing in his favored role and is still adapting.
Going forward I really hope Kagawa is giving more chances as this sort of set up is more tailored to his strengths and also it makes sense to try and get a consistent style, he can come in for any of the main front four and not change the approach much. In fairness Young could come in and fit in to the style but not for me in the same way.
That said similarly to comparing Kagawa and Valencia's performances , with Young/Valencia both aren't particularly fair imo becuase that's not Kagawa's favored position. He can play there and has for other teams as well but its not his favored role and certainly not in the way we've had him do it, personally whilst I know he's had some freedom I wouldn't say its been at the level Mata has. Where as our team all season has been set up perfectly for Young/Valencia, there really isn't much more we could do to help them get the ball in good positions and with appropriate support.
So their lack of effectiveness in many more games than not is worse than Kagawas. Ultimately they've all been disappointing but as I said I'd say its worse for young/valencia who are playing in their favored roles and in a league that they know completely, too a player who hasn't been often playing in his favored role and is still adapting.
Going forward I really hope Kagawa is giving more chances as this sort of set up is more tailored to his strengths and also it makes sense to try and get a consistent style, he can come in for any of the main front four and not change the approach much. In fairness Young could come in and fit in to the style but not for me in the same way.
Assists arent very clear
The problem with saying that Kagawa can't perform that well out wide is the main problem with Kagawa. He's probably a very good player in a certain position. However Rooney/Mata are better there so why should Kagawa play there?
He's been better than young this year and is a far better footballer in general.
I'm still confident that if we have some faith in him and let him play alongside players like Januzaj and mata rather than young and Valencia, he'll be very good for us. I think he's a player that will make those around him better if he hits his best form for us, and that's something you don't get in every player and definitely not in your run of the mill one dimensional wingers like Ashley young. What he needs to get is a goal soon because he be a good goal getting midfielder for us eventually.
I'm still confident that if we have some faith in him and let him play alongside players like Januzaj and mata rather than young and Valencia, he'll be very good for us. I think he's a player that will make those around him better if he hits his best form for us, and that's something you don't get in every player and definitely not in your run of the mill one dimensional wingers like Ashley young. What he needs to get is a goal soon because he be a good goal getting midfielder for us eventually.
That's why some statistics are overrated. That's why a player like Modric in 11/12, even though he was responsible for the buildup for a significant part of Spur's goals that season, only recorded four official assists.
Hence, some players are far better appreciated when you actually go back and watch the game and break down all the moves, as some players' contributions are far less obvious on the stat sheet than others.
The other thing Twigg, is that Young is played in his favoured position in every game, same as Valencia. That counts against him too in terms of what he's produced.
Then according to the video Raoul pointed out earlier, we missed about 7-8 absolute sitters off Kagawa crosses/passes. He deserves those as assists no? Since it wasn't his fault that Smalling/Chica/Jones/Anderson/Welbeck/Rooney couldn't finish from less than 5 yards out. There was even an assist credited to Rooney in that sequence where the whole move was created by Kagawa's through ball and Rooney just tapped it to Smalling to finish. An extra assist there too?
If we're going to go by those definitions, the stat book would have to be completely rewritten.
Because we have the RVP/Rooney conundrum, and Mata does well as an inside right which is where he played a fair bit for Chelsea. Hence, having a line of 3 players from Mata/Kagawa/Januzaj/Welbeck/Rooney behind a striker RVP/Rooney/Welbeck would be our best combination, and given the amount of games we have in the season, there shouldn't be any issues getting them all games and rotating through, once you decide to leave Young and Valencia out of things (which is what a lot of the caf posters want and I agree with) which is hopefully what Moyes picked up after the Olympiakos debacle.
We don't need to be that rigid. The ideal scenario is to have the likes of Rooney, Mata, Januzaj and Kagawa interchanging fluidly behind the main striker. The potential is great. Kagawa can work across that attacking three IMO, especially if we play the way to did yesterday and he gains in confidence through regular starts.
Well we've not seen it to know. Rooney/RVP are the better player no doubt but could a four of mata, januzaj, kagawa and one of RVP/Rooney be more effective than a four centred around RVP/Rooney? I think its possible that it could because kagawa may well be able to bring Mata/Januzaj in, in a way Rooney won't where as Rooney would bring in more traditional wingers in to a game in a way kagawa wouldn't. Would he put up Rooneys numbers? I doubt it, but could the overall numbers go up? Potentially.
But we won't know till we see it and I doubt we will see it whilst both are at the club. I mean ideally I'd like to find a way to get the best out of RVP/Rooney as well as someone like Mata and hopefully it will just need time but I'm not convinced because I think Rooney has developed as someone who's creativity is based on knocking it wide rather than a more central focused approach.
That said I think kagawa can do well out wide, particularly if he can come in, in a similar system to yesterday. I'd say over most the season when he's come in we've focused on having two quite high strikers and the other winger being primarily staying wide. Yesterday when he came on, Rooney was coming quite deep and playing more shorter passes that he typically would and it helped to allow Kagawa to drift in and get involved. Then we had Mata coming inside as well. And I think Kagawa looked better for it.
Probably already posted but this:
..makes me believe that he will actually play a lot thru to the end of the season.
..makes me believe that he will actually play a lot thru to the end of the season.
I tip my fedora to you good sir.
"I don't care whether I sound pompous, I'm being honest. Of course we live in a society where perhaps honestly isn't the best policy, where silence is golden and those that speak the brutal truth are condemned. "
You're talking about a football player on a forum. Utterly bizarre
You clearly failed to understand the simple fact that specific part of my post was in response to your suggestion I am coming across as pompous not regarding a football player but the very notion you should give yourself up for science, not unlike the monkeys, gorillas and dogs of the past.
Now, somehow you think that part of my post was in response to a football player, I honestly cannot believe you failed to realise it was in relation to my honest viewpoint you should give yourself up to science.
So let us see what you said
Now let us see what I said:
Yet somehow you thought I was referring to our friend, Shinji Kagawa!!!
For purposes of clarity, let me tell you that part of my post was not in relation to Kagawa. You'll probably now respond telling me how it was about Ozil again failing to understand I wrote that very response to you crying about my suggestion you are of real value to science. Especially considering it could be genetic, are your mother and father also the same, in the sense they fail to grasp even the most basic text? (Again, I'm not insulting, just trying to see if your deficiency is genetic).
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Makes me think we will start to play with 4231 a lot more with Kagawa playing inplace of Rooney or Mata. I still think in that 4231 we need at least one winger to ensure we have width
We've played that yesterday and several times this season, Januzaj is the one giving the width if Young / Valencia are not playing.
Err, from 'wingmen' that is. Rafael and Evra are the ones providing the most width.
Kagawa to turn the Olympiakos tie around 
Yeah I'm thinking the same but with Rooney signing a 5 year contract, and RVP looking unhappy, could this spell the end of RVP's short career here and see Fergie's plan of Rooney - Kagawa coming to fruition?
Nope. Guarantee that if we were to sell RVP, Moyes would bring his own forward in to replace him and link up with Rooney
Yesterday was not the first time we employed the 4-2-3-1 formation and it is so painfully obvious that it is our best option with the attacking players we have. Not only does Januzaj already provide your desired width in this formation but, Rafael and Evra are always providing a serious threat bombing forward (Rafael was fantastic from out wide yesterday).
We have got Januzaj - Rooney - Mata - Kagawa: To not employ this formation on a regular basis and interchange the four of them is criminal IMO.
Kagawa to turn the Olympiakos tie around
I certainly expect him to be starting the second leg. I wasn't regarding the first one.
Good to see that he will feature more. Might be make or break for him now, he has a run of games to prove himself and that he can adapt and fit into our system. Getting a regular run alongside the likes or RvP, Rooney, Mata, Januzaj etc will definitely bring out the best of him rather than coming of the bench or starting with the likes of Valencia/Young. Kagawa game is all about close, 1 touch passing, having winger who hog the touchline is never going to bring the best out of him. Also with RvP movement and Kagawa passing, hopefully they can link up well together.
If not, I can see him moving back to Dortmund at the end of the season.
If not, I can see him moving back to Dortmund at the end of the season.
His pace off the ball is very, very good, but he is awfully sluggish running with the ball - it's like he stumbles on it. It's true that we probably need one player with pace in the front four, but I would much rather have us give Nani that game time when/if he returns. Young's general play just isn't good enough; he loses the ball too often, is too timid and poor when taking on his man, and his legendary crosses seem like a myth these days.
This is the formation I would really like to see. There is such fluidity and creativity in that lineup.
Ashley Young has couple of assists, including one from Hull game.
@Dunk at newbies did a great job with statistics for United players. Used common sense as well, which a lot of sites does not want to.
@Dunk at newbies did a great job with statistics for United players. Used common sense as well, which a lot of sites does not want to.
No he hasn't. Think about this one instead of being blinded by a couple of nice strikes of the ball. Ashley Young has put in some of the worst performances I've ever seen by a United player this season. His game against City might actually be the the worst I've ever seen, it's right up there. Kagawa's all round game has looked far better, mainly because it is. I'm not arguing about the stats because they both have terrible stats, so it isn't offering a whole lot to the debate right here. The reality, though, is that Kagawa is quite simply the superior player, with more influence in the build up, and with more nuance during passing plays. The stats are poor, but he's been involved in some good spells of football this season. Young is Young.
Of course there is. Forget the FM muppet in us all and just look at the players available. That forward line could carve open the majority of defense that I can think of.
Kagawa's good performances are exaggerated, as are Young's poor performances. They've both been as good/bad as each other but Kagawa has a higher up side and is the better player which is why he should get the nod ahead of Young.
Which is of course backed up by the fact that Moyes has shown throughout his managerial career that two strikers up top is the only way to play, right?
agree with all of that. as far as i know, kagawa is off but if RVP leaving means we keep kagawa then that's cool. i'd love to keep both but there's only so many spots. kagawa wants to succeed here so it would be great if he becomes part of moyes' plans again
how do we know they've been both as "good/bad as each other"? Just feel like this is more of an appeasing statement to keep the balance more than accurately comparing their performances because in truth it would take more effort to do so and even then we may not find a clear answer.
Agree on the latter part which suggests why fans would rather see kagawa out there than young even though kagawa has had a overall disappointing season himself.
agree with @Pexbo about kagawa being put up in the shop window more than being integral to moyes' plans.
I reckon it's close to even, in terms of game time this season. Although Young hasn't actually been that bad this season (nowhere near the diabolical level of Valencia,) he has had the benefit of starting semi-regularly in his proper position. Kagawa hasn't had this luxury, and it's fairly obvious that he isn't effective on the wing.
The problem is playing him in his favoured position, given that we have both Rooney and Mata there. Unless we tailor our system to allow for Kagawa to operate less as an orthodox winger while still playing Mata, I'm not sure how we get him in there, which is a real shame, as I think he's a fantastic player.
I guess another option would be to start him in midfield, but you'd be sacrificing a defensive element for that (not that I'm convinced Cleverley adds much more in that sense.)
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