Here is the third goal again and think it shows Kagawa's involvement was at least worth mentioning.
Shinji Kagawa
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Heh. That's kind of pretty much every player, isn't it. A right back is a right back, a center half a center half...
What posts like the above and many others like it keep trying to say is that Kagawa's best attributes are maximized in a certain position. Except pretty much everyone knows that. There's a difference between the above and 'having to play in a certain position in order to....'. The difference is in aggression. AKA are you doing something because you have no other choice, or are you doing it because it will hurt the opposition the most.
For an easy example think of how much Ronaldo's pace and power are largely negated if you play him up front. Sure, the portuguese has all the attributes and then some to play as a great striker, but if you play him there you take away a considerable part of his game, which is taking the ball and running at hapless defenders. Probably even the youngest caftard will be able to see that.
Same thing with Kagawa. He has incredible speed of thought and near-perfect decision-making plus the passing ability to complete the skillset. Put that in the center of the pitch and you create serious questions in the opposition team. The CBs can't cheat towards the striker since Kagawa can just as easily slide a ball into the path of a winger cutting in behind a fullback. The fullbacks can't cheat wide for fear that they'll leave their CB one-on-one with Van Persie. (Apologies to most posters for having to state something so obvious.) Instant indecision in the back four.
This is the difference between a Moyes (at least so far) mindset and a Klopp mindset. It's the biggest mistake the lesser caftards make - and why so many of the better ones have to keep repeating themselves until everyone's sick of it. Basically it's like that line in the new Casino Royale about playing the hand across from you. Kagawa as #10 naturally forces the opposition to adapt to you rather than the other way around. And there's a world of a difference between that, and 'having to play him there because he can't play as well in another position'.
One is quite literally loser mentality, the other the opposite.
I knew he's not going to start in the first leg because he didn't play any games prior to it. Going by that quote from Moyes I think he'll start against Liverpool. But who knows with Moyes right now. I hope we see the last of Young and Valencia starting together
so this. agree with last sentence too. do not think we'll change the system enough to suit how he plays
He has got a consistent run of games down the left though but that further highlighted to me that Kagawa isn't an individualistic type of player. Nothing wrong with that. There are plenty of good players who are like that. Question is what are we, more importantly, Moyes going to do with this knowledge?
Can't tell if this is a parody or not....
We have now some much needed muscle in the midfield in Fellaini; and that could be the reason Moyes said Kagawa would feature more. I hope it's true.
Agreed. Carrick has a bit of muscle support in midfield, who won't get pushed off the ball easily, and manages to complement Carrick well,and Kagawa benefits from this.
Probably a fair standoff, since there are no doubt people in this thread wondering if you're just on a WUM. I can't ever recall you posting something completely idiotic so personally I gave your posts the benefit of the doubt and took them as coming from an honestly concerned fan wondering how in the hell to fit an obviously talented Kagawa into the team. Which is what everyone is wondering.
One thing is for sure, Moyes is in a position re Valencia/Young to say he's given them plenty of chances. If they had any minutes/apps clauses in their contracts, those have probably been fulfilled as well.
What it doesn't show is Kagawa accelerating to the box and then returning to the half way line and constantly offering the short pass which in this case we took. I just want us to have a player in the team that does this! I think the main reason for so many futile long balls stems from lack of options.
Watch the movement off the ball in the build up, if we are too direct then no wonder there is no off the ball motion but by passing it around as we did something probably possible by Kagawa offering that short option then Rooney and Fellaini had time to get into a better position. Now had we been pressed and the score 0-0 then it is possible we would have messed the move up and lost possession so it did help WBA did nothing to stop us building play as we did.
The alternatives if Kagawa didn't offer the short option:
- Pass ball to Mata from Rooney who would turn, now with Rooney behind him he would have only Welbeck ahead of him and if he played that pass then Welbeck would have too much to do.
- Had Kagawa stayed around the space he initially accelerated into then Rooney would have the long ball option to either Kagawa or Welbeck but again long balls can be risky.
It's also interesting how narrow we were, there was no option for Rooney to switch play to the flank although the full backs did push up as the move progressed but at that point Carrick, Rooney, Fellaini, Mata and Kagawa were all very much so central.
Definitely one of Nani/Janujaz or some as yet unsigned winger has to be in there. Otherwise it's too easy for opposition teams to adapt their set up.
Why is Twigginator using the current bundasliga when Kagawa isnt playing in the current bundasliga? The league was clearly extremely strong several seasons ago when Kagawa was there and players like the current stars of Juventus, Atletico Madrid, Chelsea, Arsenal and the rest were playing there and for teams that arent Bayern or Dortmund. And it had more different league winners than the premier league making a mokery of the idea that it isnt as competitive. And last season it had the two best teams in europe till Bayern tried to buy the other team.
Last season was a wakeup call for anyone thinking bundasliga hasnt been a top league. Twigginator unsurprisingly missed the memo.
Last season was a wakeup call for anyone thinking bundasliga hasnt been a top league. Twigginator unsurprisingly missed the memo.
Did I miss something? Normally I check a poster's history if I see them post something stupid just to make sure it's not a WUM but I didn't because I could have sworn he was one of the sensible ones. Is he basically the polar opposite of Mad Winger? Who TBF actually at least makes valid points.
1) So you agree Scholes played in a similar system to Kagawa and perhaps the system was responsible not the player.
2) United haven't deployed Kagawa as a LAM but a LM so you think Iniesta and co would perform in this United side as LM.
3) So a CM playing LM is not comparable with a CAM playing LM
4) You also agree the system is at fault.
Young Pirlo was CAM too, I wonder how he did at LM?
Scholes performed CAM too around Kagawa's age, I wonder he did at LM?
Scholes and Pirlo were better players but they would struggle with Kagawa's role in our system even in their prime. How can they pick out a player when nobody moves? Ryan Giggs would do fine because he would just take everybody on but when you can't do that then things will be difficult.
Seriously, what the feck are you even arguing? Of course a CM playing out wide is different from an AM evidenced by the fact that there any number of AM's today who start from wide positions and all of them are doing a hell of a lot better than Kagawa is.
Kagawa is a good player, I am not disputing that. I am also not disputing the fact that the way we play is not really suited to his style of football. What I am saying is even keeping all that in mind his performances haven't been good enough.
The thing I'm arguing at least, is that while I agree he hasn't been good enough most of the time, he's still been better then young or Valencia so should be getting games ahead of them. There hasn't really been anyone in our team who has been good enough this season, other then de gea, Rooney, and januzaj, and even he's lost form right now. Most of the others have been below par and kagawa is right along with them, yet people talk like kagawa needs to have an amazing sub appearance in the very little time he has just to get a chance in the next game.
Basically, anything that isn't red isn't good enough in Twigg's world. Probably never watches the bundesliga or forgot about who contended the CL last year.
Yeah, well, that's a given. There's only one person arguing for Young over Kagawa. We could start Bebe over Valencia and it might be an improvement.
And I am saying Scholes performances weren't good enough. He performed for United on the left when he was younger, he started out as a CAM.
Scholes is in my opinion one of the greatest players ever, if I could meet any athlete it would be him! However he didn't perform for England on the left but even he acknowledged he could perform in that position, you just conveniently excuse him because it doesn't support your argument:
Paul Scholes said:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...gland-players-are-too-selfish-to-succeed.html
Kagawa plays much better for Japan than United on the left because the system is different and the way the players move is different. For Scholes the same was true except he was better for United than England.
What you fail to grasp is that Silva, Nasri and Ozil would all struggle in this season's set up, you cannot seriously be arguing United employ a system similar to City or Arsenal?
Mata would also struggle had he been playing for most of the season however the more recent shift in emphasis regarding our system should now support Mata and Kagawa better.
I'm just basing it on the strength of the quality in this league system at the moment. I've never seen anything like it. Dortmund and Bayern are as good as us, is the rest of the league close?
Just because Bayern Munich and Dortmund have great teams doesn't mean the league as a whole is strong. How have the other German teams done in Europe recently?
Scholes is a CM, Kagawa isn't. I've made that point, so we'll agree to disagree.
And what you fail to grasp is that I never said I expect him to recreate his Dortmund performances playing from the left. It would be nice if he could actually contribute something of note and not completely disappear in games as he tends to do. Look at Januzaj. Another AM and yet even when he's playing out wide he's so much more involved than Kagawa.
You're putting all the blame on the system which I don't agree with.
Take this against Arsenal, I'm not so sure David Silva, Mesut Ozil or Juan Mata would have been influencing the game from out wide with the way United set up and played.
I find it difficult to blame Kagawa when clearly the role he performs requires a player more like Eden Hazard. Zidane refused to play on the left of a 4-4-2 for Ancelotti, and I can understand why.
I find it difficult to blame Kagawa when clearly the role he performs requires a player more like Eden Hazard. Zidane refused to play on the left of a 4-4-2 for Ancelotti, and I can understand why.
Never mind the fact he played CAM against Everton and Spurs and looked poor then as well.
Stop.
That was a one-off in terms of tactics. Evra was shite and needed support which is why Kagawa played like that. In almost all the other games he's played on the left he's had the freedom to drift in.
Against Spurs he started as AM before being shifted wide in favour of Welbeck because he was rubbish.
They finished ahead of Donetsk and Basel in the group stages instead of going out against these teams, Schalke finished top in their group ahead of Arsenal last season, even beat them in London, can't be that bad. A few crazy results don't mean the whole league is shit. The premier league is stronger, no one is denying that, the gap isn't as big as some make it sound though. Players often struggle in a different league for so many reasons, there's no need to belittle other teams or a whole league to find excuses for a player.
Kagawa's situation isn't comparable to that of Zidane. If Kagawa was as talented as Zidane then we'd probably have a team built around him.
Young Scholes never started as a CAM?
Next you'll be telling me Pirlo was never a CAM either...
I am not sure how we can agree to disagree on the fact Scholes was also a CAM and only as he aged was he no longer able to perform that role. In fact, CAM was his secondary position like Kagawa's LAM. The fact you refuse to acknowledge this supports my argument, you know how much better a CM Scholes was and it's the same for Kagawa, he is a much better CAM than LAM but for United he hasn't even been playing LAM.
Januzaj compared to Kagawa, so next you'll be comparing Hazard or George Best to him.
The way the team has played this season the player most suited to the left flank would be a Hazard, Giggs or Best, somebody that can beat their man. Januzaj has more of these characteristics than Kagawa and so I can only laugh at the fact you blame Kagawa for not being able to beat his man.
I am putting blame on the manager for using Kagawa in a way that requires skills as a player he doesn't have nor do the likes of Ozil. The manager should find a system that utilises the skills of his top players and for much of this season he hasn't done this.
Like that game against Arsenal I just posted, people expect Shinji to pick the ball up and do a Ryan Giggs on the left flank. He did for us what he does for Japan, Dortmund and he has done his entire career. It just so happened with the way the team set up it required a different skill set therefore although he didn't perform badly in that game, it is no surprise he didn't influence it as much as one would like him to.
I agree. I've made the mistake of watching a few of the lower Bundesliga teams playing each other and the quality was really poor. I've been saying this for a while but nobody ever agrees. I said that Sahin would struggle outside of Bundesliga because he wasn't ready yet, look what happened there. I had huge reservations about Kagawa when we bought him, as I felt he was a bit lightweight and got bullied a bit at times even in Bundesliga. The Premier League is a different beast.
The bitch-slapping we gave Bayer (twice) in a season where we've been a shadow of our usual selves speaks volumes. Weren't they the best of the rest in Germany at the time?
It's not a case of finding excuses. It's pointing out that constantly referring to how good a player was in a different team in a weaker league is a bit pointless.
For 90 minutes? Or was he swapped to the left after 15 or 20 mins?
Rooney has looked poor as a CAM in some games and good in others, by your logic Rooney must be poor. Kagawa has also looked VERY good in CAM.
Also, when he performed CAM in those games he made far more passes out wide than usual. You probably think that was Kagawa being poor and nothing to do with the manager's tactics as you're that science guinea pig aren't you?
The point I'm trying to make is that even the very best players can be less effective in certain formations or systems therefore it's not surprising Kagawa has struggled for United and this might not be a reflection of his ability.
Ancelotti wanted Zidane left midfield but Zidane knew he was much less effective there so he refused, Ancelotti also wanted Pirlo CAM and Pirlo had to convince him to let him drop deeper where he felt he was more effective.
The point is that there is nothing wrong with players requiring a specific system or role to flourish. Kagawa's role requires somebody who can beat his man but we should not condemn Kagawa for deficiencies in this regard.
Roy Keane was like two players in one defensively and this allowed Scholes to flourish, even Pirlo alongside Carrick in Moyes current tactics probably wouldn't be anywhere near as effective.
He also was excellent as a CAM against Leverkusen and Swansea but this didn't give him much game time afterwards. The manager set out his tactics for Spurs and Kagawa wasn't performing the role to the required level so he swapped him. Of course it's Kagawa's fault because Moyes tactics have been flawless this season
For Dortmund there were games where he wasn't performing for 20 minutes just like Rooney or RVP have games like this, Klopp didn't switch him with Goetze. He left him patiently affording him time because he was aware Kagawa would get into the game, this is normal.
He has had top performances as a CAM but also there have been times when he could have been better, you however are arguing he should be flawless all the time otherwise he is no good. Why else would you make such a ludicrous point.
Kagawa was also poor here right?
Or was this a one off too yet every other game the players pass to him but he messes it up.
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What have the English teams done in Europe recently?
You are so intent on writing essays that you end up talking a whole lot of rubbish. I can't be bothered with your CAM, LAM nonsense.
What does this even mean? Look at the context of my post. All you have done is put the entire blame on Moyes and the system which is utterly ridiculous. And you are putting words in my mouth again. Where have I said that I expect kagawa to beat his man? You can contribute a lot without doing that you know?
Literally, no one expects that. You have just pulled that out of thin air like most of your essays.
Januzaj compared to Kagawa, so next you'll be comparing Hazard or George Best to him.
Januzaj has more of these characteristics than Kagawa and so I can only laugh at the fact you blame Kagawa for not being able to beat his man.
What does this even mean? Look at the context of my post. All you have done is put the entire blame on Moyes and the system which is utterly ridiculous. And you are putting words in my mouth again. Where have I said that I expect kagawa to beat his man? You can contribute a lot without doing that you know?
Literally, no one expects that. You have just pulled that out of thin air like most of your essays.
He also was excellent as a CAM against Leverkusen and Swansea but this didn't give him much game time afterwards. The manager set out his tactics for Spurs and Kagawa wasn't performing the role to the required level so he swapped him. Of course it's Kagawa's fault because Moyes tactics have been flawless this season
For Dortmund there were games where he wasn't performing for 20 minutes just like Rooney or RVP have games like this, Klopp didn't switch him with Goetze. He left him patiently affording him time because he was aware Kagawa would get into the game, this is normal.
He has had top performances as a CAM but also there have been times when he could have been better, you however are arguing he should be flawless all the time otherwise he is no good. Why else would you make such a ludicrous point.
Yeah, Moyes' tactics are the only reason Kagawa has underperformed. Poor Shinji. He was good against Leverkusen but the Swansea game was more about Januzaj than Kagawa.
Yeah, I have argued that he should be flawless
Won a trophy in each of the last two seasons and generally progressed further than their German counterparts. Not tom ention Utd comprehensively thrashing their third best team this season.
Don't hate what you can't understand. LAM does, contrary to what you think, require a different skill set and there IS a difference between Eden Hazard and Juan Mata in styles and to which role they're suited.
I have actually made quite clear in my posts with you that you infer things. And you praised Januzaj for his impact, I merely suggested Januzaj is more suited to the role performed in this current system therefore his impact is understandable and then you say this is a load of rubbish!! LOL is applicable here I think.
The suggestion I made was that Kagawa does what he always has for Japan, it's no different. The role requires a player taking his man on down that left flank so it's no wonder he has struggled. You are blaming Kagawa because he doesn't have the skill set to perform the role he has been tasked with and praising those that do. However you fail to see this should not be a reflection on the ability of the player. Evidently you want Kagawa to adapt and so develop the skill set required to perform down that left flank.
Yeah, Moyes' tactics are the only reason Kagawa has underperformed. Poor Shinji. He was good against Leverkusen but the Swansea game was more about Januzaj than Kagawa.
Yeah, I have argued that he should be flawless
Januzaj was CAM in the Swansea game and we didn't do much, Kagawa was moved there and he got the team flowing. Januzaj's preferred position is also CAM according to himself but he happens to be equally good LAM.
So Kagawa wasn't important to United's second half performance against Swansea? Januzaj was...
Januzaj was CAM in the Swansea game and we didn't do much, Kagawa was moved there and he got the team flowing. Januzaj's preferred position is also CAM according to himself but he happens to be equally good LAM.
So Kagawa wasn't important to United's second half performance against Swansea? Januzaj was...
Januzaj was more important is what I am saying not that kagawa didn't play.
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