Or, indeed, a de-pubed Mhinji.
Shinji Kagawa
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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Or, indeed, a de-pubed Mhinji.
My e-pride is remaining defiantly strong, but I've lost all e-shame. It's the way to be.
Way to ignore 4 important variables:
1. Games started gives a better indicator than games played.
2. It's pointless to focus on the domestic cups, as the best players mostly are rested. The PL and CL therefore gives a better indicator.
3. Injuries on Kagawa.
4. Injuries on team mates who potentitally push Kagawa out of the starting lineup.
It's been repeated a thousand times by many different posters, but if we take these reasonable variables into account, we see that Fergie started Kagawa more than twice as often as Moyes. To top it off, Kagawa pretty much had to compete with Rooney for the AM position the whole season, because RVP never got injured. So not only did Fergie show more than twice as much trust in Kagawa in the two most important tournaments, but he also played him regardless of whether or not Rooney/RVP were match fit. And he was the first name on the teamsheet for the AM position the moment RVP or Rooney were out.
I'll take your bet for a token amount, or my e-pride, if you like. The thing about Kagawa is he's probably still quite marketable, there'd be takers and we could definitely get a reasonable wedge for him. I'm probably just emotionally hedging but I'm fearing the worst. Young I don't know... But I could easily see him staying. So yeah, I'll bet you.
My e-pride is remaining defiantly strong, but I've lost all e-shame. It's the way to be.
Excellent. Let's just say 42 e-pride points.
It'll put me deep into the red but fine, bring it on.
Having a shat? When has anyone ever said that? I'm having a shite. Yes. I've shat all over your head. Yes. I'm having a shat? Not in civilised parts of the country. Past tenses eh.
He needs a run of games in the team, and a manager who believes in him. It's that simple.
He may not immediately set the world on fire, but when he's good, he can win you matches. It boils down that whether his ceiling is good enough to compensate for the bad games he's having while he adjusted to his role in the team.
There's some truth in saying that he didn't perform well enough when given the chance in a few matches, but for me he's the kind of player that you'll just have to stick with because when he got it together he could bring so much to the team. Again, this come down to man management and finding ways to keep him confident even when he's not playing well, or dropped. His first season with Fergie shows this as Kagawa gradually become better as the season goes even though at first he's not playing as well as expected. Or look what Fergie did with Fletcher when he first broke into the first team. Fergie knows that he's not ready to play in central midfield, especially when you got Keane-Scholes. But he also knows that Fletcher needs first team matches because he's already too good for the reserve. So Fergie gave him matches at right wing, even though Fletcher was a bit shit in that role, he got minutes playing in the first team. Fergie knows that when Fletcher comes good, he'll be good enough to be a first choice player in midfield.
He may not immediately set the world on fire, but when he's good, he can win you matches. It boils down that whether his ceiling is good enough to compensate for the bad games he's having while he adjusted to his role in the team.
There's some truth in saying that he didn't perform well enough when given the chance in a few matches, but for me he's the kind of player that you'll just have to stick with because when he got it together he could bring so much to the team. Again, this come down to man management and finding ways to keep him confident even when he's not playing well, or dropped. His first season with Fergie shows this as Kagawa gradually become better as the season goes even though at first he's not playing as well as expected. Or look what Fergie did with Fletcher when he first broke into the first team. Fergie knows that he's not ready to play in central midfield, especially when you got Keane-Scholes. But he also knows that Fletcher needs first team matches because he's already too good for the reserve. So Fergie gave him matches at right wing, even though Fletcher was a bit shit in that role, he got minutes playing in the first team. Fergie knows that when Fletcher comes good, he'll be good enough to be a first choice player in midfield.
And shart is part shit and part fart wherever you come from.
For all the talk about "Moyes finally recognising Kagawa" I think is unfair.
Let's be honest in the early season Shinji was not playing to his full potential, and it's not a surprise that Moyes maybe didn't get the hype.
Since the last 2 months or so he has really stepped up his game, and is showing exactly what we expected from him. I am glad Moyes is starting to trust him more now, and hopefully we will reap the benefits.
Let's be honest in the early season Shinji was not playing to his full potential, and it's not a surprise that Moyes maybe didn't get the hype.
Since the last 2 months or so he has really stepped up his game, and is showing exactly what we expected from him. I am glad Moyes is starting to trust him more now, and hopefully we will reap the benefits.
Can we go Jumanji?
I dont buy this at all. Moyes sees him in training, he saw him before he was United manager, he probably saw him at Dortmund. Plenty of people on here had a good idea of what he was capable of, it wasnt a great secret. He may not have played as well as he did on Wednesday since he arrived / this season, but he has played pretty damn well on occasion, and even in the games where he hasnt played well he has had occasional flashes of brilliance. "Recognising Kagawa" - and all the other players in his squad - understanding their potential and how to get the best out of them, is a major part of his job, its up to him to coax it out of them if he wants to succeed.
Didnt even remember him beeing that good. Highlights the shitness of Rooney in the game very well too
She's great.I don't see Kagawa leaving now. Moyes seems to have finally woken up to him and is praising him after almost every game now. He played him for the full 90 in his biggest game ever and he was one of our best performers. If Moyes sells him then the guy has clearly only got function of 2% of his brain.
I hope so. But managers talk up assets they intend to sell, it maximises their value (you have to appear at least vaguely willing to keep them or you have a weak bargaining position, think of Mourinho bigging up Ibrahimovic at Inter before getting rid at the earliest opportunity.)
I dont think Moyes doesnt like Kagawa, Im just not sure he sees a place for him in his team. If he did I think he would have figured it out sooner. I just keep coming back to the fact that Kagawa only plays when he has no other sensible options.
I dont think Moyes doesnt like Kagawa, Im just not sure he sees a place for him in his team. If he did I think he would have figured it out sooner. I just keep coming back to the fact that Kagawa only plays when he has no other sensible options.
""He [Veron] is a fecking great player. And you're all fecking idiots."
I do think that Moyes had options other than playing Kagawa against Bayern though. Went with Cleverley at the Emirates and could easily have gone with him as an extra body in midfield, with Rooney, Welbeck and Valencia up front.
Like I said, he obviously sees he has ability. But if Mata wasnt cup tied and RVP was available, do you think Kagawa would have been on the pitch?
If your other option is Cleverley, you'll pardon me for using the expression "no options" as shorthand.
If your other option is Cleverley, you'll pardon me for using the expression "no options" as shorthand.
Well he's used Cleverley before in a big game, so obviously considers him a viable option.
Januzaj could have played too. Likewise Giggs.
I think "no options" is stretching it a bit.
Fair enough if you think my choice of words is poor.
You said this before the game:
Im not quoting this to throw it in your face like it proves my point or undermines yours. Being quite literal about it, you are right and I am wrong, he did have options. Only his other options were demonstrably inferior, it would be "inexcusable" not to pick Kagawa, it was so clearly the right option. Im not sure that would have been the case if Mata and/or RVP were available.
To relate that back to the point I was originally making, next season when Moyes has his full squad, with all his new players as well, I cant imagine Kagawa is going to be in his plans. That's my prediction, I have my e-pride riding on it. Time will tell.
Next year, the idea that Rooney/RVP/Mata/Kagawa/Welbeck will all be match fit for every game is ridiculous. They'll have times when they're needed and they won't all start every game when fit.
That's also true. But then they arent our only players. Valencia will be in there getting plenty of games, as will Januzaj. Those two are close to dead certs. Young may well still be around. Nani could be conceivably. Moyes may buy new attacking players also. The point is, I dont think Moyes fancies Kagawa. Call it a hunch if you like, Im certainly not going to be able to come up with anything that is going to prove it. Its way too abstract now, the chances are the squad is going to look quite different at the start of next season so let's just wait and see.
Today the Mirror are again reporting that Shinji will be sold in the summer if we can find a buyer.
Which means less than nothing. EVERY player has been linked away. Every single one
That's me convinced. Ive never know the Mirror to get it wrong.
Actually, yes, that's fair enough. Kagawa was the obvious choice.
My point is more along the line that if Moyes really doesn't rate Kagawa - to an extent where he would consider selling him in the summer - it would be very strange to pick him for such a massive game. Even if that decision went against what every United fan (me included) would have argued was the obvious team to pick. I think we'd be mad to let Kagawa go in the summer, which influences my thoughts on team selection.
Granted. I dont think he doesnt rate Kagawa, just like I dont think Mourinho didnt rate Ibra. Mourinho also picked Ibra for big games while he was his player, he just also got rid of him ASAP.
Im very conscious of the possibility people will think I am somehow comparing Kagawa to Ibra, in terms of quality, the role they play or god knows what. I am not. Its a rubbish example, its just the first one that came to me earlier, but I think it makes my point.
I just dont think he wants him. If he is trying to raise money to buy players - and make room in the squad for new additions - I suspect Kagawa will appeal because we might actually get a reasonable sum for him. If we only release the elderly, and sell the players who arent good enough, we arent going to raise much money. Kagawa is good enough, he just isnt (I fear) a Moyes Player. I can imagine more takers, offering more money, than we are going to get for Cleverley, Fletcher or whoever else we end up moving on. Maybe someone makes us a good offer for a player who, if he stays, will be on the periphery - as he has been for the vast majority of this season - and Moyes can use that money to get a player who fits the style of play he wants to pursue a little better.
The other side of this as well, which I mentioned to @Rowem yesterday, is I am emotionally hedging. I fear this scenario so I am pricing it in now so when (if) it happens I feel better prepared. Its a mechanism I use in real life as well, like betting on United losing so the hurt is offset a bit by a financial payoff (I never do that BTW). If I am proved wrong on this, happy days, I suspect I like Kagawa even more than you do - actually, no I wont presume to know how much you like Kagawa, but I have certainly been more forgiving of his performances for us so far.
Im very conscious of the possibility people will think I am somehow comparing Kagawa to Ibra, in terms of quality, the role they play or god knows what. I am not. Its a rubbish example, its just the first one that came to me earlier, but I think it makes my point.
I just dont think he wants him. If he is trying to raise money to buy players - and make room in the squad for new additions - I suspect Kagawa will appeal because we might actually get a reasonable sum for him. If we only release the elderly, and sell the players who arent good enough, we arent going to raise much money. Kagawa is good enough, he just isnt (I fear) a Moyes Player. I can imagine more takers, offering more money, than we are going to get for Cleverley, Fletcher or whoever else we end up moving on. Maybe someone makes us a good offer for a player who, if he stays, will be on the periphery - as he has been for the vast majority of this season - and Moyes can use that money to get a player who fits the style of play he wants to pursue a little better.
The other side of this as well, which I mentioned to @Rowem yesterday, is I am emotionally hedging. I fear this scenario so I am pricing it in now so when (if) it happens I feel better prepared. Its a mechanism I use in real life as well, like betting on United losing so the hurt is offset a bit by a financial payoff (I never do that BTW). If I am proved wrong on this, happy days, I suspect I like Kagawa even more than you do - actually, no I wont presume to know how much you like Kagawa, but I have certainly been more forgiving of his performances for us so far.
Emotional hedging. Interesting strategy. I think I do the opposite. A sort of quasi-denial about stuff which will only make me depressed if I acknowledge reality.
Emotional hedging is the best. You get to walk around in a state of misery / anxiety as you are always fearing the worst, and then when it happens you are pissed off anyway as deep down you always hoped youd be proved wrong. I highly recommend it.
It's disappointing to actually think that there is a real chance Moyes will sell him, really. He certainly hasn't set the world alight here so far, but it's just so obvious how good the lad is, how good he was for Dortmund and how good he potentially can be again if given time and patience. It's a frustrating scenario when your manager doesn't appear to rate players as highly as you and many others do.
I genuinely think he's still a world-beater waiting to happen, and it will happen, it already happened, actually. It just doesn't look like it'll be here at Man Utd, not with, dare I say it, Moyes in charge.
I genuinely think he's still a world-beater waiting to happen, and it will happen, it already happened, actually. It just doesn't look like it'll be here at Man Utd, not with, dare I say it, Moyes in charge.
To be fair, Fergie didn't really use Kagawa very well did he? So if the manager is to blame for Kagawa's non-frequent appearances for us in the starting eleven over the past two years, then both should be blamed. Not a dig at you alone, it just seems Moyes gets more of an attack regarding Kagawa not making half the number of appearances he should have for United while Fergie seems to escape it despite not playing him all the time as well.
Hmm, I'm not really sure that's a fair statement to make. Kagawa was generally picked in most games he was fully fit for, it was his constant injuries that made it look like he was on the periphery at times. We constantly dropped Rooney and Welbeck for him, too. I think in big games Fergie was definitely quite reluctant to use him but that's only natural when you've a player who is clearly still trying to settle in a new league.
Did he utilize him properly when he played? Probably not, but he tried to. He never really had a player like Kagawa before, a #10 like him, so it was a training exercise for Fergie too, one that I think would eventually have paid off if it wasn't for the injuries and his retirement.
I think he will have done enough to stay - 2 months ago i think he was a certainty to go but no doubt his form has picked up and he's forced himself into the team.
Only way he will go is if he wants to.
Only way he will go is if he wants to.
Agreed. SAF's mistake with regards to Kagawa was signing RVP, this has been well discussed.
That's a fair enough post. Kagawa did make 26 appearances last season for us in all competitions, and he already had 26 appearances with us now this season. Just thought I'd put that out there.
Brwned said last year after Rooney & Kagawa put in a good performance together that SAF did the wrong thing by signing RvP. I thought he was generally taking the piss at the time, but looking back, he was probably right.
Ship RvP out at the end of the season and the future looks a lot brighter. Counter-intuitive but there you go.
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