Rooney links well with almost anyone, it's just people like criticizing him as much as Akash and twigginator like shitting on kagawa. There's no need to criticize any of them, and kagawa hasn't really had a really bad game in quite a while. He's played well consistently and has started adding the assists to his game like we knew he could (3 in the last month) , he was just lacking in confidence.
Shinji Kagawa
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I am more than happy to bring up games where I felt he has done much more, rather than sit down and watch a compilation like that one above. You think it's a work of art; I think it's a compilation of simplistic passing, that isn't going to change. I appreciate games where players contribute a lot in the build up and make things tick, but this game simply wasn't that for Kagawa, and people who really enjoy compilations like that one are, well, dull. I think Kagawa does a lot in the buildup, and I have recognized it in previous other games, but this wasn't it for me, but you seem to be on a huge defensive about it so I'm just going to pretend our attack was wonderful with him in it for the first 45.
And why are you suddenly putting words in my mouth? Where did I say Mata and kagawa can't play together, or that I can't see the difference between kagawa and Cleverley? Quite sad you were trying to bend my words to make me look bad to be honest, but whatever suits you really.
I agree with this. The Kagawa and Rooney partnership is arguably our best partnership up front (the other one being Rooney and Welbeck).
'but is no better than what Cleverley does.' Is a direct comparison to Cleverley, how is that putting words in your mouth? You said there was no difference, you! You're also directly comparing Mata and Kagawa, because Mata came on the pitch and scored a brace has any relevance on Kagawas performance how exactly? Especially when they played in different positions.
I never said our attacking was brilliant in the first half nor had I implied it, Kagawa was the only one that gave a damn in that first half, he tried creating but was on his own, it wasn't Kagawas best game - far from it but he did more than just pass sideways. The defense comes the cheap snide remarks and being needlessly over dismissive about our player who was involved in a 4-0 win yesterday.
Speaking of putting words in mouths, where did I say it was a work of art? He was very tidy and his movement off the ball took 2 players away from Rooney for his 2nd goal, without that run Rooney wouldn't have had that space to pick his spot.
No he did have an average game, I'm just saying you and twigg are always he ones coming in here to criticize him no matter what. Usually if somebody has an average game, nobody bothers saying anything about it, as he did his job well enough, nothing to complain about, like it should be. With kagawa, unless he has a great game, there will be people coming in here to say he's shit/does nothing or whatever. It's similar to people never giving credit to Rooney because he wanted to leave last summer. If mata played like kagawa, nobody would say anything, because it was a normal 7/10 performance.
So saying Kagawa had an average game (he did) now amounts to shitting on Kagawa?
When someone has an average game the thread isn't full of people waxing lyrical of what a fantastic game he had or how he was the MoM. And I haven't even criticized him. Just said he had an average game.
I don't think any of our players had a good individual performance. Yesterday's win was a team victory more than anything. In such games, it's really hard to pick out the stand out players. I don't think a single player bar Mata deserves an 8/10 or more. Pretty much everyone gets a 6 or a 7(except for Cleverley).
Apart from Mata, I thought Kagawa stood out the most. He seemed a lot more eager to attack and create than any of the other players. He also effectively set everything up for Rooney to score his second goal. Obviously it wasn't a great performance, but his overall game was still better than the overall game of Rooney, Valencia, and Welbeck. Especially the last two.
It's in no way wrong to say that this was a positive performance from Kagawa. Trying to twist it into something negative, stinks of agenda. Especially considering that Kagawa has been one of our best players lately.
Apart from Mata, I thought Kagawa stood out the most. He seemed a lot more eager to attack and create than any of the other players. He also effectively set everything up for Rooney to score his second goal. Obviously it wasn't a great performance, but his overall game was still better than the overall game of Rooney, Valencia, and Welbeck. Especially the last two.
It's in no way wrong to say that this was a positive performance from Kagawa. Trying to twist it into something negative, stinks of agenda. Especially considering that Kagawa has been one of our best players lately.
After the stuff that's came out about him since Moyes was sacked and the over eating around Christmas I think he needs a kick up the backside. Wasn't like that at Dortmund but saying that he didn't have a pre season this year was more of a promo tour
I wonder what will happen this summer with Kagawa. We all know hes quality, but imo, not even the most foolhardy Kagawa-lover can say hes better than Mata.
Assuming no one is sold or brought in, if we end up with LvG and end up playing like a 4-2-3-1, then we have Rooney, Mata, Januzaj, Nani (?), Kagawa, Valencia and Young competing for those three spots. Honestly, i don't think Kagawa deserves a spot ahead of the three first ones and Nani on his best days are easily better as well.
The only solution would be if we sold Rooney
and used to money to strengthen CM
Assuming no one is sold or brought in, if we end up with LvG and end up playing like a 4-2-3-1, then we have Rooney, Mata, Januzaj, Nani (?), Kagawa, Valencia and Young competing for those three spots. Honestly, i don't think Kagawa deserves a spot ahead of the three first ones and Nani on his best days are easily better as well.
The only solution would be if we sold Rooney
and used to money to strengthen CMFor the left, Kagawa has probably performed the best over the course of the season. Januzaj has done well but he's only just turned 19 years old and is still far away from being the first name on the team sheet, or a starter week in week out. He's gone off the boil since January too, though he's still got loads of potential obviously and will be class, given time. Nani is always injured too, so based on their form over the course of the season, Kagawa gets in on the left IMO.I wonder what will happen this summer with Kagawa. We all know hes quality, but imo, not even the most foolhardy Kagawa-lover can say hes better than Mata.
Assuming no one is sold or brought in, if we end up with LvG and end up playing like a 4-2-3-1, then we have Rooney, Mata, Januzaj, Nani (?), Kagawa, Valencia and Young competing for those three spots. Honestly, i don't think Kagawa deserves a spot ahead of the three first ones and Nani on his best days are easily better as well.
The only solution would be if we sold Rooney
Whatever the case I think we'll have a problem when RVP comes back and we have the issue of what to do with Rooney, Mata, RVP and Kagawa. They all can't start together, unless Kagawa or Rooney plays in midfield or on a wing, but without a doubt Mata is our best #10 and should always start there. Kagawa is still young too, so he's got time to improve.
I'm confident that he'll stay now. He's been shown a lot of faith these past few weeks and with another manager coming in, a top class one this time, whatever issues he had with Moyes don't matter now.
Are people seriously still pretending as if that bollocks is true? If there was ever a comment that encapsulated the foot and mouth disease associated with the clown's regime then it's this one. It's medically impossible.
You caaaaalled?
Seriously though, even if Mata is the better player, I don't feel that the distance between the two is as big as people in here are suggesting. Judging by what I've seen from Mata in Chelsea, Spain, and United, I honestly don't think he's much better than Kagawa if we break down the different skills.
Kagawa is slightly faster, has better stamina, and better off-the-ball movement. I also think he's slightly better at dribbling. And while it's not an important skill to have for an AM, he is better at winning the ball back, both in the air and on the ground.
As far as passing, creativity, vision and technique goes, I think they're fairly equal.
What makes Mata better than Kagawa, is his insane effectivity and awesome set pieces. Seriously, Mata's awareness in the box and ability to always be at the right place at the right time, makes me think he could have been a world class striker, if he only had pace. His overall game for us hasn't been better than Kagawa's, but his stats are clearly superior. At the end of the day, football is about end product, and Mata has so far shown that he is better than Kagawa at this. It's evident when we compare the two players that Mata has always played in an advanced role, whereas Kagawa started out as a defensive midfielder.
Kagawa is a slightly better playmaker(offensive cogwheel, if you like), but Mata clearly has the superior end product. To top it off, he's PL proven(i.e. a God) and exceptionally likable. I can see why people prefer Mata over Kagawa then.
But the bottom line is that we're extremely lucky to have both. We should do whatever we can to keep them. Seeing Kagawa go before the likes of Young, Valenica, Nani and even Welbeck, would be a disaster.
Exactly I'm referring to the nonsense of everything surrounding him
fari enaugh. Very promising back that one
There's also the stuff about him turning up so late to the trip to Munich he had to be fast-tracked through airport security.
He talks a good game and always comes across as humble and hard-working. Be a shame if he's actually been living it large in Manchester and not putting the hard yards in at training.
I don't think we'll ever find out the truth about most this stuff coming out in the press. I'm not saying it's all Moyes, I've alluded to it in previous posts that the players wouldn't have helped but I do think there will be a lot of bullshit coming out about our players just to slate them really. I'm sure some of it is true but some of it will obviously be exaggerated. The plane story is a classic example, plenty of people have done similar before, for all we know it could of been treated as a bit of a laugh and pisstake as soon as he got on the plane, now the media reports it as an outrage.
So does nobody want to take my bet that we'll keep Kagawa and sell Young?
I see the Daily Mail is speculating that we will use Kagawa as a makeweight to get Reus. Though if we got Reus then Young's position wouldnt look very good. Could be on course for a draw here.
Got a chance to watch the Norwich game after missing it over the weekend. Was pleasantly surprised after reading some of the comments on here, but I thought he was quite good. Not excellent, but did the simple things well. Definitely not a poor performance in my eyes. I'd rate that as Decent-good performance, with the usual bits of quality thrown in (a couple of excellent cross-field passes.)
He'll be a revelation under Van Gaal.
--------X----------X-------------
-----------Kagawa--------------
Mata-------Rooney------Januzaj
With the X's being 2 new midfielders, preferably one being a mobile DM and the other one being a good box-to-box type of midfielder would be the best formation (involving Kagawa) we could play in imo.
-----------Kagawa--------------
Mata-------Rooney------Januzaj
With the X's being 2 new midfielders, preferably one being a mobile DM and the other one being a good box-to-box type of midfielder would be the best formation (involving Kagawa) we could play in imo.
Just ignoring the guy who is captaining Van Gaal's current team?
Slow, narrow and Mr Rooney will invade into the playing spaces of all the attacking players. Much rather have van Persie in that role.
My only problem with a team like this is that the players are all mismatched in what style of football they'd play. What I mean by this is that those players lack the off the ball runs that would be required to play a possession based fluid attacking game like Arsenal and it also lacks the directness and pace that a team like Chelsea has.
Mata likes to play at his own pace, dictating the attack which is exactly what Rooney likes to do. Kagawa, at Dortmund, was all about receiving the ball on the half turn and playing in one of the players flying past him on either side. Januzaj, I'm not too sure what he'll end up doing.
I presummed he'd be where he has been most of the time this season and in fact he has been most of time during his entire career, lying on the treatment table instead of being on the pitch.
well yea I said it is the best we can do with these players
----------X-----------X-------------
X---------Kagawa/Mata-------Januzaj
-------------Cavani-----------------
Would ofcourse a far better team, yet we are stuck with kagawa and Mata and in an ideal setup both can't play together because they occupy the same position.
I'd prefer cavani over Rooney and definitley RVP simply because this guy is a more complete forward than both, he has got great technique, physique, nose for goal and he has what neither RVp or Rooney have, blisterring pace. If you want kagawa in his best, you need a complete forward infornt of him that use his pace for these kind of fast counters you talk about. Same on the flanks, mata wouldn't fit there you are right , so we need soembody new, januzaj I have a feeling has what it takes to play in that set up.
Slot in a new winger like Cerci or perhaps if possible somebody like Lavezzi or Reus to be the X winger, ship out one of RVP or Rooney and bring in Cavani to lead the lign, slot in kagawa or Mata (but not both) behind him and fill in the space behind him with those midfielders I described and you got a fantastic team. But it so many changes, it will never happen.
If i were the coach I'd go for the following:
Rooney+€ 40 mil for Cavani
€ 25 mil for Cerci
€40 mil for Carvalho
€20 mil for Paulinho
€15 mil for Rodriguez
€15 mil for Rami
out: Hernandez, Nani, Anderson, Fellaini, Ferdiand, Vidic, Evra
---------------------DDG----------------------------
Rafael-------Jones-----------Rami--------Rodriguez
-------------Carvalho---Paulinho------------------
Cerci---------------Mata------------------Januzaj
-------------------Cavani------------------------
Res bench: RVP, Welbeck, Valencia, Kagawa, Carrick, Smalling, Lindegaard
but won't happen and we'll likely waste our summer going after Cesc, kroos, Reus, Hummels etc and end up with Classie and De vrij and not solving the issue between RVP and Rooney and between Kagawa and Mata
I certainly think Mata and Kagawa can play together.
I think you'll see a miraculous return to fitness......rather strange he appeared in training days after Moyes dismissal.
Obviously a coincedence.....
If he faked it (and I stress if) , it would even be worse. People rant about Rooney being unprofessional and its those same people that wouldn't mind RVP pulling this trick over Moyes and perhaps ruining our entire season in the process. I'd like to think it was a coincedence, atleast then I can still support the guy now that he is back, if but anything of him faking this would turn out to be true than I'll want RVP out ASAP. I'll want his head on a stake if turns out to be true, I'll consider him as our worst transfer and worst player if this ever turns out to be true. The unprofessionalism alone about it makes my skin crawl, mind you I don't belive a shit about it, but if anything what you guys pressume to be true turns out to be really true I wouldn't want anything to do with the fecker anymore for the rest of my life. If that guy would go and become the clubs captain and is seen in higher regard as somebody like Rooney by our fans, my stomach would ache and my mind would explode, I don't think I could associate myself anymore with a club and fanbase that would stand for such a vile act of mutinay !
How many injuries did he have when playing for Wenger? I suppose he faked those out of his hatred for him too.
You caaaaalled?
Seriously though, even if Mata is the better player, I don't feel that the distance between the two is as big as people in here are suggesting. Judging by what I've seen from Mata in Chelsea, Spain, and United, I honestly don't think he's much better than Kagawa if we break down the different skills.
Kagawa is slightly faster, has better stamina, and better off-the-ball movement. I also think he's slightly better at dribbling. And while it's not an important skill to have for an AM, he is better at winning the ball back, both in the air and on the ground.
As far as passing, creativity, vision and technique goes, I think they're fairly equal.
What makes Mata better than Kagawa, is his insane effectivity and awesome set pieces. Seriously, Mata's awareness in the box and ability to always be at the right place at the right time, makes me think he could have been a world class striker, if he only had pace. His overall game for us hasn't been better than Kagawa's, but his stats are clearly superior. At the end of the day, football is about end product, and Mata has so far shown that he is better than Kagawa at this. It's evident when we compare the two players that Mata has always played in an advanced role, whereas Kagawa started out as a defensive midfielder.
Kagawa is a slightly better playmaker(offensive cogwheel, if you like), but Mata clearly has the superior end product. To top it off, he's PL proven(i.e. a God) and exceptionally likable. I can see why people prefer Mata over Kagawa then.
But the bottom line is that we're extremely lucky to have both. We should do whatever we can to keep them. Seeing Kagawa go before the likes of Young, Valenica, Nani and even Welbeck, would be a disaster.
im a akagawa fan but hes underperformed here. mata has nearly as many goals and assists already has kagawa has in 2 seasons.
Mata clearly has the better ratio, but that statement is a bit of an exaggeration.
Mata: 5 goals 4 assists
Kagawa: 7 goals 10 assists
But even if you were right, it doesn't really contradict my point. In my post I wrote that the two things that give Mata an edge over Kagawa, is his effectivity and set-pieces. In terms of general skills, I really don't think that Mata is better than Kagawa. He's just got that brilliant striker-like awareness that allows him to be at the right place at the right time. To top it off, he has sweet set-pieces.
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Its hilarious reading these hypothetical lineups 'because player X isn't in the strongest 11 he must be sold', god forbid we have more than one player capable of playing in the same position!
I guess it stems from the idea that you can't have brilliant/world class players on the bench, because they'll just end up angry and confused.
I used to suggest that Rooney or RVP should be benched in favor of Kagawa. You should have seen the shitstorm I got! But now that we've had a season under Moyes and signed Mata(who's a very similar player to Kagawa, except more efficient), benching one of Rooney or RVP has become the norm. Oh how quickly things turn around...
Yes but when you're not playing in Europe...
I've posted about 20 times in this thread. I just judge players on what they show, not on some mythical kind of football I'd love to see played.
Any news on the reason for his absence?
I know he doesn't look like he does much but I do think the constant off the ball motion offering the option for a short pass and creating space for others to penetrate into combined with his ability to help us control matches is quite important to our team for as long as we are as static as we are.
Mata of course tries to provide this however it's not easy when the striker ahead of you is out of form, the wingers too and then perhaps the most static central midfield possible behind. He could have done with his other half drifting into him I think. I'm assuming the class of 92 didn't choose him in the match squad because he was unavailable but was it an injury or a bug?
I know he doesn't look like he does much but I do think the constant off the ball motion offering the option for a short pass and creating space for others to penetrate into combined with his ability to help us control matches is quite important to our team for as long as we are as static as we are.
Mata of course tries to provide this however it's not easy when the striker ahead of you is out of form, the wingers too and then perhaps the most static central midfield possible behind. He could have done with his other half drifting into him I think. I'm assuming the class of 92 didn't choose him in the match squad because he was unavailable but was it an injury or a bug?
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