A treble, a CL and league double, an FA Cup, and 5 leagues. Behave. Ferguson > Paisley, and it's not even close.
Liverpool
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A treble, a CL and league double, an FA Cup, and 5 leagues. Behave. Ferguson > Paisley, and it's not even close.
I wasn't talking about Shankly. At least read the conversation first. It is close, Ferguson is ahead of Shanks, but it isn't by much.
I've edited it.
Ferguson's rebuilding job wasn't anywhere near as difficult as the one Clough or Shankly did. You were a first division side.
Paisley:
6 leagues, 3 league cups, 3 European cups and a UEFA cup. 13 trophies.
Ferguson:
6 leagues, 1 league cup, 2 FA cups, 2 Champions leagues. 11 trophies.
While I get what you're saying, I just think it's unfair to pinpoint an exact timescale to suit one manager, when Ferguson has been around for 30 years. It's like saying Guardiola is a better manager than Ferguson if you look at his 4 years at Barca and compare it to any of Fergie's 4 years. It's just a silly comparison.
Again, I won't get into which re-building job was tougher. Shankley's probably was. The fact remains Ferguson did one hell of a re-building job and thats something you can't ignore.
Busby done the best rebuild jobs of all. Twice.
First after the war and then after Munich.
Fact.
First after the war and then after Munich.
Fact.
I don't like belittling any European cup victory but beating four or five teams to win it is a damn site easier than what Ferguson had to do
See, this is why it's a bollocks arguement. Showing Paisley's 9 years against only 9 years of Ferguson, as if the rest of his career doesn't count. But the fact is longevity as a manager is huge. So much so I'd rank it as Ferguson's biggest strength. No other manager comes close, off the top of my head.
Also your post ignores the issue of the CL being tougher to win than the European Cup, but I feel we could be here all night so I will bow out at this point.
This. Liverpool havent even lost the league yet and they have started all this garbage again. Lets take a manager who took over while they were already at the top and compare him to a manager that has done it for 20+ years but only take the years that suits your agenda/timescale. Your logic still never amazes me.
We're counting the UEFA Cup and League Cups? Okay.
Why wouldn't we? Both of those are legitimate trophies and were harder to win (especially in the case of the UEFA cup).
Fergie: 2 World Cups.
And after tomorrow...the first 14-0 win in top tier history...
The second, if City's game finishes first..........
Then you need to count what Fergie did with in (and with!) Scot land too.
I can't do the argument because I never saw Paisley's teams though.
Barney you need to add a bit more to the forum other than telling us how great Liverpool are. You are getting tedious.
Not much to be critical about this season.
Apart from falling apart.
This must be the greatest second place performance ever in the league. I've never seen so many people proud to be runners up
If you were coming from 7th you'd feel the exact same way.
To offer balance to the trajectory of this thread over the past couple of hours:
Rival fans throw around comments back and forth about Liverpool's past glories but several United fans come on to tell us all how Liverpool fans are reverting back to harping on about the past when the reality is that several United fans have been just as active in sustaining said debate.
The outcome, a Liverpool fan offers an alternative perspective which is that Liverpool aren't all that bad.
United won the league by 11 points and those same Liverpool fans pointedly refused to accept that the same fact applied to United.
But the league was so crap last year don't you know?United won the league by 11 points and those same Liverpool fans pointedly refused to accept that the same fact applied to United.
Like this year then...
This is a United forum. Opposition posters need to offer more than Barney is offering, it's not up for debate.
And Barney has been crowing like a cock, not just saying Liverpool are not that bad. Liverpool are going to get shit on a United forum, if swimming against that is your raison d'etre we can do without you.
Not much to be critical about this season.
Apart from your defence and your sense of entitlement and massive whiney gobs.
Yes much poorer than this years fierce competition, 3 clubs being in managerial change, one of which with a bit of a buffoon at the helm.
League cups
Liverpool have won more league cups than any other team from what I recall, that must mean Ferguson under-performed in the competition right? Or was it a trophy he just didn't care about.
Ferguson's fifa world club championship takes it to 12 trophies, and why not throw in the intercontinental cup, he probably took that more seriously than the league cup!
Without a doubt Ferguson was at the very least as successful as Paisley during his 9 years from 1999 - 2008 and then there is everything else he did outside of these years such as from 1980 to 1986 at Aberdeen he won 11 trophies, and then even from 1991 - 1999 he won 11 trophies not including his European Super Cup.
The consistency truly is incredible. I understand the reason Harvard Business School wants him to lecture, it's one thing dominating for only a decade but to do so for three decades is something else.
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Shankly took Liverpool from being a mediocre 2nd Division club to champions of the 1st Division. Liverpool were in a right mess when he took over but it didn't take him that long to turn things around. He had players like Hunt, Strong, St. John, Lawler, and Yeats, to name but a few, and he turned them into a formidable side winning the league in 1964 and the cup in 1965. There were a few up and coming managers back then. Revie at Leeds, Joe Mercer at City, and a young Brian Clough who took Derby up to the 1st Division and then to the league title. But Shankly for me was the real visionary. He set up Liverpool to succeed no matter who was in charge and he did that from the ground up. He spent big money when he had to and he wasn't infallible in the transfer market (Tony Hateley) but the backroom staff at Anfield were capable of doing each others' jobs with the minimum of fuss. Revie, Clough, Busby, and Mercer all built great teams but they folded like a pack of cards when each man left. Liverpool never did and that was Shankly's genius and vision. Why nobody else has ever been able to adopt that method is beyond me. We had a great chance to follow that path towards the end of Fergie's time but we blew that big time. Scouser or not, Shankly was perhaps the greatest of them all in that respect.
Good post. To consider the point in bold; I think that many great teams are inspired by great men who lead with the strength of their personality. In that sense success is based on the ability of an individual rather than an inherently superior infrastructure within the club. If any business has personality ahead of infrastructure it will do well until that person leaves as the system is reliant on their presence. Shankly was obviously a strong personality but his systems and processes were evidently even more important than his presence at the club.
In that respect no great manager has ever been so successful in terms of a sustained legacy and quality succession planning. That is arguably more salient than trophy haul when looking at the best of all time.
Ferguson won more than Shankly but he didn't win the 'build the club up from the lowest ebb' trophy or the 'leave the club in a healthy state' trophy like Shankly did. Paisley was better than him because he won three league cups and won the European cup one more time than Ferguson by beating four teams en-route to one of those victories...
All three managers were brilliant and Sir Alex himself was in awe of Shankly but Ferguson was clearly the best manager of those three
All three managers were brilliant and Sir Alex himself was in awe of Shankly but Ferguson was clearly the best manager of those three
You should do a points system with those trophies to make it more realistic. Like how the standard of the champions league is much better than the old European cup, how an FA cup is worth double the points of a league cup and how a treble gets you massive bonus points.
Or you could drop the silly argument and recognise that according to most, SAF is by far the greatest manager, ever.
Jesus Christ Barney, you're getting worse...you're not going to win over us United fans, give up.
Yeah it's pretty unfair to match Paisleys entire 9 year career at Liverpool to just picking and choosing a 9 year period out of Ferguson's reign, like someone said it's like Guardiola's 4 years at Barca vs any 4 year of Ferguson, on that account Guardiola is already more successful than him too. That's bollocks.
If we are going with Paisleys entire Liverpool career, you compare it to Ferguson's entire United career.
That's the point of a comparison, you compare careers, your best vs our best, not any best 9 year period, oh ours only went for this long so if we only pick out a certain amount of years from your best he is worse than ours.
It's the whole career or nothing.
Paisley:
Football League First Division (6): 1975-76, 1976-77, 1978-79, 1979-80, 1981-82, 1982-83
League Cup (3): 1980–81, 1981–82, 1982–83
FA Charity Shield (6): 1974, 1976, 1977, 1979, 1980, 1982
European Cup (3): 1976–77, 1977–78, 1980–81
UEFA Cup (1): 1975-76
UEFA Super Cup (1): 1977
Ferguson:
Premier League (13): 1992–93, 1993–94, 1995–96, 1996–97, 1998–99, 1999–2000, 2000–01, 2002–03, 2006–07, 2007–08, 2008–09, 2010–11, 2012–13
FA Cup (5): 1989–90, 1993–94, 1995–96, 1998–99, 2003–04
League Cup (4): 1991–92, 2005–06, 2008–09, 2009–10
FA Charity/Community Shield (10): 1990 (shared), 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2007, 2008, 2010, 2011
UEFA Champions League (2): 1998–99, 2007–08
UEFA Cup Winners' Cup (1): 1990–91
UEFA Super Cup (1): 1991
Intercontinental Cup (1): 1999
FIFA Club World Cup (1): 2008
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BarneyLFC, you've got to laugh at him (and boy will we if they mess up that title that was easily theres a few games back), cherry picking a bit to suit Paisley, which is what Liverpool fans do best. Ferguson won 11 trophies in Scotland alone, not hard usually with the Glasgow teams but to do it with Aberdeen, be the last man but those two to win there since he left is special enough, then he wins two European trophies with them, beating the likes of Bayern and Madrid. Can Paisley touch that? That alone about Ferguson puts him up there with Clough, Paisley, Sir Bobby Robson, then when you factor in the United stuff, not just the wins but how he changed United, not just took over a winning team, something Moyes couldn't even manage, then you realise how one off he is.
As others said, count the trophies. Why not Cherry pick one year, Barney? How about the Treble year....
As others said, count the trophies. Why not Cherry pick one year, Barney? How about the Treble year....
No, we won't. If we come from seventh or sixth to second next season, we won't be particularly proud. Encouraged, maybe. You might, because you're small time, but we are United.
After 4 or 5 years of shite you wouldn't be happy? After over 20 years without a genuine title push you wouldn't be happy. Bollocks.