Agreed. Pep has a long way to go, but he's on track if he can stay the course.
Liverpool
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Agreed. Pep has a long way to go, but he's on track if he can stay the course.
I do think it's worthy of debate if you are looking to see who built the better team and who has been more prolific in the same era. Using the longevity card to eliminate a debate is a bit dull and glib.
That said, I do believe Ferguson was a brilliant manager and may very well be remembered for longer than Pep.
That said, I do believe Ferguson was a brilliant manager and may very well be remembered for longer than Pep.
I wasn't debating that, I was merely pointing out a flaw in the idea that Ferguson's achievements are better because the league is stronger now. Whether you believe Ferguson is better or not I do not think using using league strength is relevant.
Who knows, in 25 years time that statement might well be true. But I'm putting a case forward to Paisley's ability to build a side capable of dominating not just English football's best sides/players, but also the rest of Europe's too. Whereas Ferguson, despite being given the time, money, & resources, never matched paisley's, or Barcelona's, achievements.
First of all, Paisley never built a side that matches Pep's Barca. Secondly, Shankley was the man who really built the foundations for Paisley to work on. Ferguson built his own foundations. Thirdly, it was good fortune for Paisley that he was around at a time when the English champions would also win the European Cup. Timing is everything, as they say. To put that into perspective, we have seen the Utd side of 1999 only win one CL. The Arsenal invincibles didn't win a single one. Jose's brilliant, machine like Chelsea of 2005/06 didn't win a CL title.
But surely if the competition is stronger, it is therefore harder to win? Utd may have had more money & better players from around the globe than Liverpool back then, but so did all the other teams. Therefore it is a higher level of competition, right? More money, higher stakes, winning = everything.
Then there's Europe. I can't see how anyone could deny the old European Cup was easier to win for a dominate English team back then? Look at this years final, two Spanish sides who wouldn't have even been in the compeition had the old rules been in place. Don't get me wrong, Paisley was an incredible manager, one of the best, and those Liverpool successes were brilliant, but timing is everything and it did fall nicely for you in terms of English league winners dominating the EC. You, Villa, Forest. Plus there was never another outstanding team around that time for you to overcome. You missed the great Ajax and Bayern sides. And then the great Milan side. Ferguson was shit out of luck that he was around the same time as the best club side of all time. (Though granted he probably should have won more than 2 CL titles. The period between 1999 and 2002 was a big disappointment/our best opportunity, looking back.)
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Those two CL finals vs Barca will no doubt still haunt SAF. You'd think that we'd at least be on four CL titles if arguably the best team ever wasn't in his way.
Liverpool have done a lot better than us this season.
We will undoubtedly bounce back with a new manager and some new faces - but can Liverpool keep up the pace at the top?
We will undoubtedly bounce back with a new manager and some new faces - but can Liverpool keep up the pace at the top?
@PickledRed I dunno, maybe I am looking at it wrong? 
but I've always thought the standard of a league should be taken into consideration. Arrigo Sacchi's Milan side go down as one of the best ever yet they only won 1 Serie A title. Such was the standard of the league back then. Maradona, Matthaus, Brehme etc etc. But that one win must rank as a better achievement than say all the Inter wins under Mancini when the league was a lot weaker.
but I've always thought the standard of a league should be taken into consideration. Arrigo Sacchi's Milan side go down as one of the best ever yet they only won 1 Serie A title. Such was the standard of the league back then. Maradona, Matthaus, Brehme etc etc. But that one win must rank as a better achievement than say all the Inter wins under Mancini when the league was a lot weaker.Schemichel,Parker,Irwin,Giggs,Sharpe(he didnt really break into the team till 90-91),Kanchelskis,Cantona all were added. Thats a huge talent difference between 1990 and 1993. Then Keane the next season.
We Go Again
By RAWK
A special season now is done
And sadly there's no title won.
But memories of how we played
Will hold us through these summer days.
One memory for me stands out
Our captain gives a rallying shout.
Emotion strong, he tells his men
We Go Again.
Those words so heartfelt and inspired
Don't change because of what transpired.
For Stevie is a man who leads
Desiring always to succeed.
Pushing himself and those around
To always reach for higher ground.
He bottled it? Go boil your head
Support your fecking team instead!
As we back ours and know that then
We Go Again.
So Chelsea came and things went wrong
And now they sing that fecking song
And flood the web with endless memes
Our captain's slip, their bitter dream.
Don't let them take those words from him
As if it's ruined by what they sing.
Don't let them say he fell on his arse
And gave the ball to Demba Ba.
Because though he did, we know he slipped
And from there they were well equipped
To defend their lead, to waste our time,
To keep their deep defensive line.
We know that horrid twist of fate
Was just one game of thirty-eight
As Mourinho spouts his bitter chat.
The Special One? The "Special" Twat.
I'll stick with backing Rodgers men.
We Go Again.
I'm proud of reds who backed their team
And lined the streets as they made us dream.
I'm proud of our courage and conviction
As we battered all pre-season predictions.
I'm proud that at 33-1
We oh so nearly had it won.
I'm proud of our captain and proud of his words
And proud I'll remain despite internet nerds
Who hide behind computers and type on their screens
And have no idea what that passion means.
It means that they care, that they'll fight for the club
For those in the ground and for those in the pub.
For those who support us home and away
And even the gloryhunters who turn up in May.
The importance of that passion cannot be diminished
Though our best season for years had a frustrating finish.
You'll see how it matters next season when
We Go Again.
By RAWK
A special season now is done
And sadly there's no title won.
But memories of how we played
Will hold us through these summer days.
One memory for me stands out
Our captain gives a rallying shout.
Emotion strong, he tells his men
We Go Again.
Those words so heartfelt and inspired
Don't change because of what transpired.
For Stevie is a man who leads
Desiring always to succeed.
Pushing himself and those around
To always reach for higher ground.
He bottled it? Go boil your head
Support your fecking team instead!
As we back ours and know that then
We Go Again.
So Chelsea came and things went wrong
And now they sing that fecking song
And flood the web with endless memes
Our captain's slip, their bitter dream.
Don't let them take those words from him
As if it's ruined by what they sing.
Don't let them say he fell on his arse
And gave the ball to Demba Ba.
Because though he did, we know he slipped
And from there they were well equipped
To defend their lead, to waste our time,
To keep their deep defensive line.
We know that horrid twist of fate
Was just one game of thirty-eight
As Mourinho spouts his bitter chat.
The Special One? The "Special" Twat.
I'll stick with backing Rodgers men.
We Go Again.
I'm proud of reds who backed their team
And lined the streets as they made us dream.
I'm proud of our courage and conviction
As we battered all pre-season predictions.
I'm proud that at 33-1
We oh so nearly had it won.
I'm proud of our captain and proud of his words
And proud I'll remain despite internet nerds
Who hide behind computers and type on their screens
And have no idea what that passion means.
It means that they care, that they'll fight for the club
For those in the ground and for those in the pub.
For those who support us home and away
And even the gloryhunters who turn up in May.
The importance of that passion cannot be diminished
Though our best season for years had a frustrating finish.
You'll see how it matters next season when
We Go Again.
Hardly a safe assumption. We'd have had to beat someone in the final - Chelsea and Madrid probably.
"He bottled it, go boil your head, support your fecking team instead!".
Such poetry.
Such poetry.
The really do think "we go again" ranks up with the best literary prose this country has ever produced.
Had they gone on and won it, I could maybe see how those words could become a rallying cry for the club. But since they imploded almost as soon as those words had been uttered, I would have wanted nothing to do with them!
Had they gone on and won it, I could maybe see how those words could become a rallying cry for the club. But since they imploded almost as soon as those words had been uttered, I would have wanted nothing to do with them!
Elaborate?
@PickledRed I dunno, maybe I am looking at it wrong?
To be honest, the whole debate is a bit empty. Debating quality of teams who operated in different eras is so difficult. Essentially you can only succeed in the era you played in and all the trapping and obstacles that come with that.
The Paisley v Ferguson debate, the Liverpool glory years v the United glory years...it's a bit tired. I'm as guilty as anyone for hammering on about it.
I'm amused by why you'd think one of the two strongest squads in the Premiership are in need of urgent rebuilding, when the only gaping hole is a new striker.
I knew we go again would be the new YAWN! They're actually a parody of themselves now.I actually think it's a crucial summer for all of the top 7.
How will City deal with the homegrown criterion?
Will Liverpool add quality to a squad that needs depth badly?
What's Mourinho going to do in the market? Chelsea badly need a striker and their record at buying them is awful.
Will Arsenal buy for a title push or be content with buying players for a top 4 finish?
Will Everton be able to sufficiently replace their loaned in players and bring in a few others to cope with Europe?
What are Spurs going to do with their squad of similar players?
And finally what are United going to do under Van Gaal? Will they spend massively and how will the squad cope to mass changes?
How will City deal with the homegrown criterion?
Will Liverpool add quality to a squad that needs depth badly?
What's Mourinho going to do in the market? Chelsea badly need a striker and their record at buying them is awful.
Will Arsenal buy for a title push or be content with buying players for a top 4 finish?
Will Everton be able to sufficiently replace their loaned in players and bring in a few others to cope with Europe?
What are Spurs going to do with their squad of similar players?
And finally what are United going to do under Van Gaal? Will they spend massively and how will the squad cope to mass changes?
Fair enough mate.
I can't help myself either. Redman mentioned the standard is better now so I had to comment and round and round in circles I go!
I agree with Barney, this feels like a very important summer for most sides, certainly all of the top ones. City probably needed the least investment out of the sides in the top seven but the recent fine they've received does mean they'll likely be a few changes there.
I am pretty sure that Mourinho will be agitated to buy in a significant number of first teamers - two strikers, centre back and full back positions are needed at least.
We don't need a centre back, we currently have 6 players who can play in those 2 positions, Terry, Cahill, Luiz, Ivanovich, Zouma and Kalas (not to mention Kenneth Omeruo who isn't far off). The only defensive player we need is a new left back.
We're likely to buy a couple of strikers, a left back and possibly a CM. It's hardly a major rebuild.
Surely you should be looking at Mourinho's record at buying or intoducing strikers for the squad rather than Chelsea's.
Not been able to get the best out of Shevchenko, Higuain, Benzema & Torres during his time at Chelsea & R.Madrid. Did ok at Inter though with the strikers he had available.
lol drogba, eto and many others plus i thought this was about his signings...not players already there i.e. Torres
If Ferguson was manager in Paisley's day, when it was common place to win multiple European Cups on the trot due to lack of meaningful competition across the tournament (replace second placed Spanish team with Norwegian fishermen etc. etc.), he'd probably have about 5/6 European Cups across his years of management.
Ferguson didn't just have to keep things ticking over from a previous manager's hard work a la Paisley. He built 4 great sides, including 2 Champions League winning ones, one of which completed The Treble, undoubtedly the greatest single achievement in English football. He competed against and bettered clubs with limitless wealth. He also took an unfancied Aberdeen side to European success and broke up the duopoly of the Old Firm.
It's funny how Liverpool fans can use Ferguson's longevity as a stick to beat him with, as if it's better to have a comparatively short purple patch under favourable circumstances, rather than the ups and downs that come with a career spanning over a quarter of a century. Ferguson's longevity and his building and rebuilding of great teams are what will make him stand out as the greatest manager of all time.
With regards to his European record, his record in the Champions League is still unsurpassed. Also worth bearing in mind that for much of Ferguson's United career, English football was in a slow recovery from the devastation of its European ban, until his '99 team lifted the gloom. There are plenty of managers who have been around as long, at wealthy clubs, in strong leagues, and none have bettered his record. Ancelotti, another managerial great, will have the opportunity this Saturday and fair play to him if he does. If he manages it, the 3 Champions Leagues he will hold are a much stronger achievement than 3 old style European Cups.
Drogba had a better season under Ancelloti & Eto'o was far better at Barca. Strikers tend not to play better under Mourinho, not unexpected because he is a defensive manager.
he signed the player though....and Eto'o was brilliant at inter being played out of position and this defensive manager whose team outscored the free scoring Arsenal
Since when is this current Arsenal team a free scoring one? And what relevance do Arsenal have to this?
Great post. Alex Ferguson will rightly go down as the greatest British manager ever. Shankly, Paisley, Clough were all great managers, but just not Ferguson. Bye.
as much relevance as the rest of your posts on the subject in matter...SFA
A bit like Fergie's Aberdeen fishermen back in the 80/81 European Cup ?
Welcome back mate.
It's amazing how dismissive people are of Paisley's influence during the Shankly years. This is a piece from Bob's wiki page :
He stayed with Liverpool and took on two roles as reserve team coach and club physiotherapist. By this time, Liverpool had been relegated to the Second Division and their facilities were in decline. In December 1959, Bill Shankly was appointed Liverpool manager and he promoted Paisley to work alongside him as his assistant in a management/coaching team that included Joe Fagan and Reuben Bennett. Under their leadership, the fortunes of Liverpool turned around dramatically and, in the 1961–62 season, the team gained promotion back to the First Division. Paisley filled an important role as tactician under Shankly's leadership and the team won numerous honours during the next twelve seasons.
I read Tommy Smith's autobiography last year. He played under both managers, & he stated how Bob would often advise players on the tactical side of the game, even when he was just assistant to Shanks. He said that Paisley was not only very perceptive to the strengths & weaknesses of his own players, but he was very astute when weighing up the opposition too. Shankly & Ferguson are/were both cut from the same cloth insofar that their personalities & motivational skills were the primary driving force behind most of what they achieved in the game. Paisley was totally different. He was a great thinker. So whilst he might have inherited a very good side, let's not play down the part he played in helping create that team. But most importantly, let's not forget that he left a much, much better side to his successor Joe Fagan. One that went on to win the European Cup, the League title, & the League Cup, the year after he retired.
Re the highlighted bit from your post. So in years to come, will people play down Barcelona's 3 CL wins in 6 years because Spanish football was so strong ? Has it not occurred to you that Liverpool might have been a significant factor in English football becoming so dominant ? We'd already won 2 UEFA Cups (1973 & 1976) before embarking on our 4 European Cup wins in 8 years. We had raised the bar in England, so other clubs had to try & match it.
It makes me laugh when United supporters claim they've been unlucky because of the recent great Barcelona side. That's like saying that Liverpool were 'lucky' to have been so good during the Paisley era.
Exactly. 3 of the 4 Semi finalists this year wouldn't have even been in the competition back then.
Some of the teams in the old European cup wernt even semi professional!
The fact that Paisley couldnt win the treble back then shows you he wasnt as good as Fergie.
Also Liverpool were never the best club team in the world. Zico and Flamingos gave them an absolute pasting in 81.
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He's workrf with some of the best strikers in the game and not been able to get the best out of them. You can brush it off with comments like they weren't his players but it is a valid criticism.
With the exception of Schemichel & Giggs, all those player you mentioned, along with Ince, Bruce, Pallister, & Hughes, all part of the 1993 title winning side, were eventually replaced by better players. Which in turn meant you became a much better side. Your first 2 seasons in the CL ended in dismal failure when you exited very early on. I think the 95/96 season perfectly encapsulated just how poor the standard of English football was. Blackburn finished rock bottom of a CL group which was made up of Spartak Moscow, Panathinikos, & Legia Warsaw, whilst United were knocked out of the UEFA Cup at the first hurdle by a side called Rotor Volgograd.
I'm not trying to rubbish United's achievements during the early part of the 90's, because you can only beat what's in front of you. But I don't think you can class a lot of that 1993 squad as all time greats in the same way you could of the 1999 treble winning side, & beyond.
No, they'd have been playing in the old UEFA Cup, a competition that Paisley won in 1976. & you wouldn't have won the treble if it hadn't have been for the change in format.
Swings & roundabouts mate. Swings & roundabouts.
That was a complete mismatch, it was clear after one half of football there was a huge gulf, I watched that from my uncles massive satellite dish with Brazilian commentary, it was excellent.