I don't agree with this. Mata was arguably the best player in the premier league a couple of seasons ago, especially in his position. I don't think Kagawa is at that level and I don't think he was at Dortmund either.
Shinji Kagawa
- Thread starter Baby Faced Assassin
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
- Status
Fair enough, it's all opinion-based anyways.
Of course, and I do like Kagawa. I think he is integral to our attack moving forward, and I hope he stays.
That makes us two!
This is arguably his last chance. He needs to minimum reach the form he had under Fergie, while also staying away from injuries. If he can't do that, then he should leave for his own sake. But before doing that, I hope that he takes a massive dump in Moyes' mailbox
I hope he does a bit better than he did under SAF to be fair. All your stats aside, it was an underwhelming first season, even if there were extenuating circumstances.
It seems to me the answer, short of massive new acquisitions, is to use Nani and Januzaj wide.
Kagawa is a fantastic backup option to have, but the question is whether he'd be happy to serve in such a capacity, even for United.
van Gaal's system is such that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. The way Dortmund play is similar to van Gaal's system in that both have the team be more than just the 11 individuals playing.
In a system where everyone plays for the team and facilitates each other, Kagawa can work well. He doesn't have the range of passing, the high level of vision, and the ability to keep the ball in tight spaces. If he had these three qualities, he can work well in a system focusing more on individual ability (the system we've set up with ever since C. Ronaldo left us). However, since he doesn't have these qualities, his strengths will make him do well in a system that focuses on the team rather than individuals and where each player facilitates for others (Man. Utd. in its prime, Dortmund and Atletico Madrid now).
What is true, however, is when the going gets tough for the team, individuals will make the big difference in terms of winning and not winning. Dortmund only have Lewandowski and Reus as their difference-makers, currently. Atletico Madrid have Diego Costa and Arda Turan as the difference makers. Man. Utd. in their prime had Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Solskjaer, and Keane as the difference makers.
Kagawa will never ever be a player who will create a piece of magic to help us grind out a victory. He doesn't have the qualities to do so. However, if the team isn't playing so badly that we need one player to get us a key goal, then Kagawa will be of a great benefit to the team with his qualities as it will help in unlocking defences and making our play exciting and unpredictable.
In a system where everyone plays for the team and facilitates each other, Kagawa can work well. He doesn't have the range of passing, the high level of vision, and the ability to keep the ball in tight spaces. If he had these three qualities, he can work well in a system focusing more on individual ability (the system we've set up with ever since C. Ronaldo left us). However, since he doesn't have these qualities, his strengths will make him do well in a system that focuses on the team rather than individuals and where each player facilitates for others (Man. Utd. in its prime, Dortmund and Atletico Madrid now).
What is true, however, is when the going gets tough for the team, individuals will make the big difference in terms of winning and not winning. Dortmund only have Lewandowski and Reus as their difference-makers, currently. Atletico Madrid have Diego Costa and Arda Turan as the difference makers. Man. Utd. in their prime had Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Solskjaer, and Keane as the difference makers.
Kagawa will never ever be a player who will create a piece of magic to help us grind out a victory. He doesn't have the qualities to do so. However, if the team isn't playing so badly that we need one player to get us a key goal, then Kagawa will be of a great benefit to the team with his qualities as it will help in unlocking defences and making our play exciting and unpredictable.
Why would he need to when he's played better than Nani?
exactly
A fair question. If we believe that Nani has forgotten how to play football or has gotten old, fine, he's done. Injuries fecked him last year and the chaos and madness of Moyes fecked him this year. Seriously, it can't just be coincidence that the entire squad with the exception of De Gea and Januzaj played like garbage this season. Nani played on a total of what, maybe 5 or 6 matches all season?
As for Kagawa, he's just not a natural wide man. He'll put in a shift but he scares no one from a wide position.
I'm good with upgrading on Nani, but I'm not good with settling on Kagawa.
Put Kagawa with some intelligent players around him, and in a position that suits him, and we will see the Kagawa from Dortmund. Kagawa has performed the best with Mata on the pitch alongside him, but they were rarely paired up together.
As for Kagawa not having assists and goals, well here is a video of his creative side from this season.
As for Kagawa not having assists and goals, well here is a video of his creative side from this season.
If we go with merit then Kagawa clearly starts over Nani and Young on the left.
Nani is a talented player but even at his best he wasn't convincing on the left hand side. He had a couple of very good matches there over many years, he certainly didn't have his 18 months of fantastic form there. That was on the right hand side where he could play more direct for his crossing or come inside and score his goals with his left foot. We've seen the same more direct role on the right suit Young as well where both he and Nani can look to get crosses in quicker and don't run the risk of an inswinging cross getting too close to the keeper. Nani's prospects don't look very good right now if we're honest, but if theres one way for him to come good and get back to the form he did once show its obviously to give him a run of games on the right hand side again. Thats why he came good in the first place. Sticking him on the left we'll get what we always got from him there, not enough.
Kagawa is steady on the left even if he should clearly be getting more goals and can clearly create more than he has been.
Dont forget he helps us keep the ball and thats clearly one of the reasons that Valencia has been favoured on the right all these years. Mata aside, Kagawa has been more accurate with his passing this season than any of our wide options bar Welbeck and Welbeck averages the least key passes, confirming that he tends to play safer passes than our other wingers rather than unlock locked doors. While Kagawa matches Valencia for key passes. Listen, Kagawa should be more than that. And that comes from being a bit quiet too often for most of the season until recently.
I want more from Kagawa, at least half a season of the form he's had for a couple of months this season. But even on a bad day he does contribute some good things from the left hand side. Is it enough? In an ideal world no its not, but a lot of the time the way he passes the ball around the team is more useful than our blunt attacks down the right with players making some space for themselves and then kicking the ball into the first defender like Valencia or giving the ball away a bit too much like Nani.
So thats why I see Kagawa as a fine option for the left next season and behind the likes of Young, Valencia and Nani as problem wingers. If in 6 months time we're talking about having signed a top class winger on the right hand side, or Januzaj's end product has improved so much that he's the top class winger on the right hand side then it changes everything. But until we sort out the very many problems with our winger pool that are clearly weighted to right wingers who aren't doing enough I think it would be silly to toss away Kagawa after he's shown even for a short time that he can be the solution on the left. Hopefully next season he can go to the next level and show it for an extended period instead.
Agreed. And watching City play West Ham on Sunday Silva is also miles better than Kagawa.
Had a discussion with some other United supporters today. Most people came to the verdict that whilst they'd be interested to see how van Gaal utilizes him if he stayed, there won't be much disappointment if he's shipped out. I'm in this group.
When he signed it was to play behind Rooney. In the pre season of 2012 he was excellent and his first few games as a United player filled me with excitement. He really showed no nervousness and his technical ability was evident. However the player has regressed to a point that even his first touch is constantly bobbling about and he is far too weak on the ball. There is too much emphasis on his part on getting it and immediately giving it to someone nearby. His ball retention stats look good but the lack of confidence to influence games is what is infuriating. At Dortmund he was a good dribbler yet that is a sign he rarely showed in his two seasons here. He's a player who is in the team to provide ingenuity yet he is too safe in the ball. Januzaj and Mata have come in and looked to make the impact with a killer pass, a good dribble, quick play forwards. The comparisons with Silva are way off now. The ball is glued to Silva's feet. Often when Silva dwells on the ball it's because he's weighing up his options for the forward ball. Kagawa does it looking for a free team mate from 5 yards.
When he signed it was to play behind Rooney. In the pre season of 2012 he was excellent and his first few games as a United player filled me with excitement. He really showed no nervousness and his technical ability was evident. However the player has regressed to a point that even his first touch is constantly bobbling about and he is far too weak on the ball. There is too much emphasis on his part on getting it and immediately giving it to someone nearby. His ball retention stats look good but the lack of confidence to influence games is what is infuriating. At Dortmund he was a good dribbler yet that is a sign he rarely showed in his two seasons here. He's a player who is in the team to provide ingenuity yet he is too safe in the ball. Januzaj and Mata have come in and looked to make the impact with a killer pass, a good dribble, quick play forwards. The comparisons with Silva are way off now. The ball is glued to Silva's feet. Often when Silva dwells on the ball it's because he's weighing up his options for the forward ball. Kagawa does it looking for a free team mate from 5 yards.
Mediocre season or not: he sure knows how to get a sweet YouTube compilation! I can't believe some of the insane chances he created that didn't lead to a goal.
The ironic thing about this season, is that Kagawa did well in the aspects he used to be criticized for: interceptions and crosses. He did both of these things excellently under Moyes. Too bad the dinosaur football in general isolated his more valueable skills. I can't wait to see him play under Van Gaal!
The ironic thing about this season, is that Kagawa did well in the aspects he used to be criticized for: interceptions and crosses. He did both of these things excellently under Moyes. Too bad the dinosaur football in general isolated his more valueable skills. I can't wait to see him play under Van Gaal!
I noticed this, too. However, I don't think it's because those aspects of his game improved significantly (they may have slightly, though). I think it's because he's attempting crossing the ball more often than before. He is good at creating chances and does show good vision, so his crossing should also be good.
Too bad he's not good at 1-on-1 situations; otherwise, he'd be a pretty good winger for us.
I love Shinji, but there are too many players in his area.
Shinji is not effective enough when he plays left or right but so great when he's trough the middle.
But we've already Mata and Rooney there, with RVP dropping sometimes.
The question is should we keep him and playing him out of position, or selling him, maybe in order to get Reus or Hummels cheaper ?
Shinji is not effective enough when he plays left or right but so great when he's trough the middle.
But we've already Mata and Rooney there, with RVP dropping sometimes.
The question is should we keep him and playing him out of position, or selling him, maybe in order to get Reus or Hummels cheaper ?
Hope LVG knows/remembers a thing or two about how good HE can be/become...
He's not been at his most effective for us, but he truly is a joy to watch. So nimble and elegant. Should've had a couple of more assists judging from that clip; Smalling and Hernandez with some shocking misses!
Anyway, let's hope LvG gets the best out of him.
He had a very good game in Japan's 1-0 victory over Cyprus today. Assisted the only goal that was scored, and was most likely MOTM(if they have such an award for friendlies).
Cyprus aren't exactly world beaters, but once again it's like watching a different player when Kagawa plays for Japan. He's much more dangerous from the left in a progressive, creative, attacking team.
Cyprus aren't exactly world beaters, but once again it's like watching a different player when Kagawa plays for Japan. He's much more dangerous from the left in a progressive, creative, attacking team.
Stopped reading at the bolded bits.
Considering we've already got a number of central players such as Mata and Rooney, it'll be interesting to see if LVG can utilise him on the left. I've not really been impressed by him when he's played there for us and think he's been better centrally, although since he won't get too much time there I'm looking forward to seeing what LVG can do with him.
I doubt we'll see Mata, Rooney and Kagawa feature at the same time under Van Gaal, unless he plans to play Kagawa and Mata in central midfield, with Carrick(or a new signing) as a DM. I feel like anything can happen under Van Gaal, though. Kagawa could become our regular AM, he could continue as a left winger, he could become a CM in a midfield-three, and he could get another Moyes treatment.
Personally, I would prefer it if Van Gaal just continued with 4-2-3-1, with Kagawa on the left and Mata in the AM position. If we sign an LB and a CM, then that alone could work miracles for technical players like Kagawa and Mata. Top it off with Van Gaal's positive football, and we might just have a winning model.
Stopped reading at the bolded bits.
His high range of passing was shown against Hull at home where he was rarely successful with his long passes forward. He's played in a short-passing system for so long and came up as an attacking midfielder that I doubt that he would be good with his long passing. The likes of Silva, Mata, and even Ozil have played a number of matches on the wing as a winger in their younger years, which is why their long passing is better than Kagawa's, who's been an attacking midfielder for much of his career.
The vision part, I agree, was wrong on my part as I've realised from past viewings how he finds so many good passes. I will also admit that I was wrong about him keeping the ball in tight spaces. He's excellent at keeping the ball in tight spaces and always finds a way to wriggle himself out of them.
However, where he fails is in situations where he has to get past his man and drive forward. He's not good at 1-on-1 situations and loses the ball more often when pressed hard by the opposition and when he actually tries to take his man on. His pass-and-move style combined with the fact that he's never played a proper winger in his younger years means that he won't be good at 1-on-1 situations and, thus, won't be good out wide as he lacks pace and quickness along with the willingness to take on the opposition.
There are many forms of "one-on-one", though.
Kagawa doesn't have the necessary speed and flair to dribble past players who know that he's coming. The thing is, why would you want your team to have such a predictable playstyle, unless you have someone like Ronaldo or Robben available? For Japan, Kagawa is one of the best dribblers on the team. Only Nagatomo seems to be clearly better in this aspect. The reason for this, is because of Japan's playstyle. He has so many chances to catch the opponent off-guard/wrong-footed/on the half-turn. It's nothing like Moyes' football. There are players making runs both left and right, while quick passes are flying around(see the link below). If Van Gaal is as progressive as people suggest, then I'm confident that Kagawa will excel on the left wing.
This is a typical Japan attack. Ironically, this was only 6 months ago against Van Gaal's Holland.
Although this is slightly off topic, Moyes/the club really fecked up in purchasing Mata when we already struggled to fit Kagawa in with Rooney as the #10 and RvP as the #9. As to how the transfer was even allowed to happen was pretty ridiculous, now we are stuck with 3 class number 10s. Kagawa is going to inevitably go because there is absolutely no way that Van Gaal will find a system to fit Rooney, Mata, RvP and Kagawa. Hell I don't even think he can fit Mata Rooney and RvP in the same XI alone.
'typical Japan attack'
Never has so much bullshit been spouted on these forums.
Never has so much bullshit been spouted on these forums.
How is that really fecking up?
'typical Japan attack'
Typical Japan attack, not goal
I've watched 80-90% of Japan's games for 4 years now, and all the highlights. This is their preferred attacking pattern. They'll try to pull this off a couple of times every game, but it only occasionally pays off. That's why they also resort to crosses, long-shots, throughballs and lobs, like any other team. But this is their unique and preferred style of attack. I don't think any other team in the world is this good at one-touch-plays. Spain is the only team that comes close.
Let's hope Kagawa can be made to do well, there. I'm sure that Kagawa's deficiency can be minimalized by van Gaal if he plays there. Kagawa has to show that he's good at stretching teams by going out wide. He should also be good at troubling the opposition man-marker with his dribbling. So far, he hasn't shown that ability to do well in 1-on-1 situations where the opponent knows that he's coming. He needs to be good in those situations in order to create space for himself and create 2-on-1 moments. If he can do that, he can be good on the wing.
There's a reason why van Gaal goes for players like Ribery, Robben, Lens, Overmars, Depay, etc. to play in those wider roles than the likes of Sneijder, Muller, van der Vaart, etc.
Typical Japan attack, not goal
I've watched 80-90% of Japan's games for 4 years now, and all the highlights. This is their preferred attacking pattern. They'll try to pull this off a couple of times every game, but it only occasionally pays off. That's why they also resort to crosses, long-shots, throughballs and lobs, like any other team. But this is their unique and preferred style of attack. I don't think any other team in the world is this good at one-touch-plays. Spain is the only team that comes close.
Out of interest, why did you start watching Japan games? What made them stand out?
I used to live in Japan, and my fiancée is Japanese. Being interested in football, it was only natural that I would start watching "my second home nation" play. And to my surprise, their football was incredibly entertaining to watch. It's shaky defensively, there's a bit of mental bottling at times, and there's a serious lack of individualist goalscorers, but the general play is top class, way up there with the best in the world. Some of the moves they pull off as a team, even against the best nations, is just ridiculous to watch.
What makes Japan so unique, is that they've skipped the "basics" as a team. Most "weaker" nations will focus on defending first, and then gradually move over to attack. For Japan, this is not even an option, because their central defenders aren't good enough. They have to keep the ball. They have to attack. Otherwise, they are guaranteed to lose
I used to live in Japan, and my fiancée is Japanese. Being interested in football, it was only natural that I would start watching "my second home nation" play. And to my surprise, their football was incredibly entertaining to watch. It's shaky defensively, there's a bit of mental bottling at times, and there's a serious lack of individualist goalscorers, but the general play is top class, way up there with the best in the world. Some of the moves they pull off as a team, even against the best nations, is just ridiculous to watch.
What makes Japan so unique, is that they've skipped the "basics" as a team. Most "weaker" nations will focus on defending first, and then gradually move over to attack. For Japan, this is not even an option, because their central defenders aren't good enough. They have to keep the ball. They have to attack. Otherwise, they are guaranteed to lose
That's fair enough. I think it's admirable you like them and stick up for them so much. Kagawa will hopefully be awesome next year.
Kagawa is never gonna be good at this. If Van Gaal needs both wingers to have this ability, then it's safe to say he'll have no patience for Kagawa. He might as well ask him to shoot like Scholes or win duels like Vidic.
No white text?
Oh you mean how is buying a number 10 when you already have two class number 10's (and a potential upcoming natural number 10 in Januzaj) for the club record fee of £38m when there are other areas of the squad absolutely screaming for investment not fecking up? Moyes basically had no clue what he was doing and jumped at the thought of signing Mata when it was the absolute least of our concerns. Of course in a season where we bought an immobile microphone for £27.5m, it isn't as much of a feck up as it seems, but still a bad purchase because the central midfield and certain areas of the defence are bloody dire.
From what I've read, yes, he wants both of his wingers to have that ability. However, we'll see what van Gaal will do with Kagawa. He may put him out wide to my surprise, and Kagawa may prove to be a useful player, there, even with his deficiency.
Kagawa is excellent through the middle, though with Mata out wide on either side (since he has experience as a winger, he's better at 1-on-1's than Kagawa is). Kagawa can also score lots of goals through the middle, as well, so that's something else for van Gaal to consider.
'typical Japan attack'
Never has so much bullshit been spouted on these forums.
I don't know, you've been doing your best since your best pal got the chop.
Claws out
I can see van Gaal playing Kagawa as the playmaker at the tip of a 3 man midfield like this....
CM --------- CM
-- Kagawa --
CM --------- CM
-- Kagawa --
- Status