Liverpool

It will never happen, but I wouldn't mind Rodgers getting his hands on Zaha. He'd be a good signing I think.
 
redman5 said:
So which time was that then ? Was it Shankly's time from 1959 - 1974 (3 league titles, 2 FA Cups, 2 UEFA Cups)
Paisley's time from 1974 - 1983 (6 league titles, 3 European Cups, 2 UEFA Cups, 4 League Cups) Fagan's time from 1983-1985 (1 league title, 1 European Cup, 1 League Cup) or Dalgish's time from 1985 -1991 (3 league titles, 2 FA Cups)

You're having an absolute mare on this thread. I imagine a lot of the older United supporters on here must be cringing at your attempts to play down what we achieved during that 31 year time span.

Proper football actually wasn't invented in 1993 you know. & it certainly wasn't invented by Fergie. So if you want to carry on with this debate, & with all your silly theories, then make sure you come well armed & informed.

Good luck.
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You're getting your knickers in a twist, I've made a few simple statements. The only way you've been able to respond is with laughing smilies, irrelevant videos or throwing your toys out of the pram like above.

(1) The European Cup, given the standard of opposition and how easily it was won and defended, cannot be placed beside the Champions League in terms of difficulty. Cross-era comparisons of records are therefore redundant.
(2) Paisley's great teams of the 80's were effective but never captured the imagination. The football was nothing revolutionary, merely of its time and soon to be obsolete.
(3) Ferguson's CL record was unmatched until this weekend past (congratulations Ancelotti). He didn't invent football (nice strawman), but he was at the forefront of the modern era and thrived when others failed. A similarly dominant United team under Ferguson in the 70's/80's would've cleaned up on the European front.
 
Marca and a few other people are reporting that we're close to signing Moreno and the deal could include Suso going there on loan. That would be a strange deal unless we definitely think we can get Suso to sign a new contract.

The Echo are saying the Can deal is being held up due to his wage demands.
 
BarneyLFC said:
Marca and a few other people are reporting that we're close to signing Moreno and the deal could include Suso going there on loan. That would be a strange deal unless we definitely think we can get Suso to sign a new contract.

The Echo are saying the Can deal is being held up due to his wage demands.
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I don't know why you're using this thread on a United forum to post pseudo ITK news. It's a bit weird.
 
BarneyLFC said:
Marca and a few other people are reporting that we're close to signing Moreno and the deal could include Suso going there on loan. That would be a strange deal unless we definitely think we can get Suso to sign a new contract.

The Echo are saying the Can deal is being held up due to his wage demands.
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Doesnt he have just a year left on his contract and you're already having doubts whether he intends to stay?
 
goldenstatesplash said:
I don't know why you're using this thread on a United forum to post pseudo ITK news. It's a bit weird.
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Cool.
Varun said:
Doesnt he have just a year left on his contract and you're already having doubts whether he intends to stay?
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Aye, that's why I would find it weird. I think Suso would definitely stay if we were prepared to offer him regular game time but I don't think Rodgers will.
 
BarneyLFC said:
Cool.


Aye, that's why I would find it weird. I think Suso would definitely stay if we were prepared to offer him regular game time but I don't think Rodgers will.
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Well, considering his talent, you lot should offer him regular time. It wont even be tough to achieve considering you're in Europe too this year. None of the promises in the contract bullshit though if that's what you mean he's demanding.
 
Varun said:
Well, considering his talent, you lot should offer him regular time. It wont even be tough to achieve considering you're in Europe too this year. None of the promises in the contract bullshit though if that's what you mean he's demanding.
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I hope we do, but I'd be surprised. I don't think Suso offers enough of a goal threat.
 
Kraftwerker said:
You're getting your knickers in a twist, I've made a few simple statements. The only way you've been able to respond is with laughing smilies, irrelevant videos or throwing your toys out of the pram like above.

(1) The European Cup, given the standard of opposition and how easily it was won and defended, cannot be placed beside the Champions League in terms of difficulty. Cross-era comparisons of records are therefore redundant.
(2) Paisley's great teams of the 80's were effective but never captured the imagination. The football was nothing revolutionary, merely of its time and soon to be obsolete.
(3) Ferguson's CL record was unmatched until this weekend past (congratulations Ancelotti). He didn't invent football (nice strawman), but he was at the forefront of the modern era and thrived when others failed. A similarly dominant United team under Ferguson in the 70's/80's would've cleaned up on the European front.
Click to expand...

You're the one who posted a 3 second gif of Steve McMahon seeing out a very tight game against title rivals Arsenal as some sort of undeniable proof of us being a dull, negative, side. I simply responded in kind by posting the comments of Tom Finney, who'd just witnessed us demolishing a very good Nottingham Forest team from the same era. & if I was cherry-picking, then I had a lot to choose from, even though, unlike today, there were a lot of matches not televised.

You see, there you go again, playing down Paisley's Liverpool as nothing special, just merely 'effective', even though you weren't even around at the time, & even though many, many, people, including United fans, who can remember, claim the exact opposite. I've already posted an example of his side destroying Fergie's Aberdeen in the European Cup. There are plenty more I could use should you so wish. I wouldn't want to be accused of 'cherry-picking' again.

What CL record is that ? 1 final in 16/17 attempts, & this even before the great Barcelona side came along & actually won it 3 times in 6 years. Yeah, well done. Would you like me to point out some of the not-so great sides who were responsible for Fergie's teams not-so-hot CL record from 1993 to 2008, so you can explain to me why, with so many advantages at his disposal, Fergie failed to do better ? On 2nd thoughts don't bother, because we've heard all the excuses before. At least Fergie, to his credit, admits, that all things considered, Manchester United should have done much better. He maybe knows, that just like the recent Barca side, he had the luxury & benefit of having a group of world-class players come through the ranks at the same time. Yet unlike Barcelona, he never quite managed to transform their domestic dominance on to the biggest stage in football. So that renders your final point as totally irrelevant. Because in the modern era you've failed to dominate Europe & were often knocked-out by much inferior sides. Yet you think that in a time when you had to win the league in order to qualify, Ferguson would have not only seen off the likes of Paisley, Clough, & a few others in England, have the same number of attempts at winning the European Cup/CL as he had in his 26 years in charge, & things would have been sooooo different.

Ferguson was a truly great manager, & it's hard to see his record ever being surpassed - 26 years at the same club, plus the amount of trophies won - But he wasn't perfect. You talk of Paisley's football becoming 'obsolete', yet it was an evolution that made us capable of being able to change our game in order to compete with the technically superior European sides, whilst at the same time see off the best of the rest back home in England. Paisley was responsible for Liverpool winning 4 European Cups in 8 years, whereas Ferguson got United to 4 finals in 18 years. The 2 he won had large elements of good luck involved, whilst in the other 2, his side were comprehensively outplayed by a team that Manchester United should have been many years before. Yet you don't want to see that though do you ? Fergie-mania convinces you otherwise.
 
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Tony Barrett - Liverpool have tabled a £16m offer for Moreno, the Sevilla left back, which would also allow them to take Suso on loan.

Such a strange offer. Has anyone seen enough of Moreno to give us a description? He was bang average in the Europa league final, but he was excellent for Spain last summer.
 
redman5 said:
You're the one who posted a 3 second gif of Steve McMahon seeing out a very tight game against title rivals Arsenal as some sort of undeniable proof of us being a dull, negative, side. I simply responded in kind by posting the comments of Tom Finney, who'd just witnessed us demolishing a very good Nottingham Forest team from the same era. & if I was cherry-picking, then I had a lot to choose from, even though, unlike today, there were a lot of matches not televised.

You see, there you go again, playing down Paisley's Liverpool as nothing special, just merely 'effective', even though you weren't even around at the time, & even though many, many, people, including United fans, who can remember, claim the exact opposite. I've already posted an example of his side destroying Fergie's Aberdeen in the European Cup. There are plenty more I could use should you so wish. I wouldn't want to be accused of 'cherry-picking' again.

What CL record is that ? 1 final in 16/17 attempts, & this even before the great Barcelona side came along & actually won it 3 times in 6 years. Yeah, well done. Would you like me to point out some of the not-so great sides who were responsible for Fergie's teams not-so-hot CL record from 1993 to 2008, so you can explain to me why, with so many advantages at his disposal, Fergie failed to do better ? On 2nd thoughts don't bother, because we've heard all the excuses before. At least Fergie, to his credit, admits, that all things considered, Manchester United should have done much better. He maybe knows, that just like the recent Barca side, he had the luxury & benefit of having a group of world-class players come through the ranks at the same time. Yet unlike Barcelona, he never quite managed to transform their domestic dominance on to the biggest stage in football. So that renders your final point as totally irrelevant. Because in the modern era you've failed to dominate Europe & were often knocked-out by much inferior sides. Yet you think that in a time when you had to win the league in order to qualify, Ferguson would have not only seen off the likes of Paisley, Clough, & a few others in England, have the same number of attempts at winning the European Cup/CL as he had in his 26 years in charge, & things would have been sooooo different.

Ferguson was a truly great manager, & it's hard to see his record ever being surpassed - 26 years at the same club, plus the amount of trophies won - But he wasn't perfect. You talk of Paisley's football becoming 'obsolete', yet it was an evolution that made us capable of being able to change our game in order to compete with the technically superior European sides, whilst at the same time see off the best of the rest back home in England. Paisley was responsible for Liverpool winning 4 European Cups in 8 years, whereas Ferguson got United to 4 finals in 18 years. The 2 he won had large elements of good luck involved, whilst in the other 2, his side were comprehensively outplayed by a team that Manchester United should have been many years before. Yet you don't want to see that though do you ? Fergie-mania convinces you otherwise.
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You accuse me of playing down Paisley's achievements, yet listening to your bitter diatribe you'd swear Ferguson was some parochial manager who got a nosebleed any time he left these shores. When in fact, he's got two Champions Leagues to his name, and a record unmatched by any manager bar one. You laud Dalglish and Shankly, and Wenger is widely respected, yet none have any European Cup/CL success. You'd never dare attack their 'failure' in the manner you've done Ferguson, which shows your anti-Ferguson agenda for all it is. You're transparently a bitter man who had his best days in football snatched away as the game modernised, and had to watch as Ferguson moulded your hated rivals into the much-lauded team you always wanted Liverpool to be.

I have no axe to bear with Paisley, he hasn't personally affected my mental well-being in the same way Ferguson has you. I'm just calling it as I see it, and I'm yet to see anything approaching a convincing argument for why I'm not right. Ferguson is his own biggest critic and supremely ambitious. No doubt he would've liked to have won 3, 4 even 5 Champions Leagues. Saying Man United should've done much better is nonsense though. How much better? There's always been stronger leagues, and even when the Premier League was the strongest for a short period of time, he had several clubs outspending him domestically alone. In the 1990's Italy was the powerhouse and most big European leagues were comfortably ahead of ours. England was very much a league in recovery, from the devastation of a European ban. We were also severely hampered by the home-grown rule, preventing us playing our best team - what use is a golden generation when you can't play a Roy Keane or a Peter Schmeichel alongside them? To have expected Ferguson to have cleaned up in Europe during this period is delusion. 1999 was a timely coming of age for United and for the league. It was around the turn of the century when United were well-placed to add another CL. The CL is such a long, arduous and difficult competition that it wasn't to be. Would I trade the ups and many downs, and the uber-competitiveness of the CL for Fergie to have played in a much less expansive and easier European Cup format and won a few more - not a chance in hell.
 
Kraftwerker said:
You accuse me of playing down Paisley's achievements, yet listening to your bitter diatribe you'd swear Ferguson was some parochial manager who got a nosebleed any time he left these shores. When in fact, he's got two Champions Leagues to his name, and a record unmatched by any manager bar one. You laud Dalglish and Shankly, and Wenger is widely respected, yet none have any European Cup/CL success. You'd never dare attack their 'failure' in the manner you've done Ferguson, which shows your anti-Ferguson agenda for all it is. You're transparently a bitter man who had his best days in football snatched away as the game modernised, and had to watch as Ferguson moulded your hated rivals into the much-lauded team you always wanted Liverpool to be.

I have no axe to bear with Paisley, he hasn't personally affected my mental well-being in the same way Ferguson has you. I'm just calling it as I see it, and I'm yet to see anything approaching a convincing argument for why I'm not right. Ferguson is his own biggest critic and supremely ambitious. No doubt he would've liked to have won 3, 4 even 5 Champions Leagues. Saying Man United should've done much better is nonsense though. How much better? There's always been stronger leagues, and even when the Premier League was the strongest for a short period of time, he had several clubs outspending him domestically alone. In the 1990's Italy was the powerhouse and most big European leagues were comfortably ahead of ours. England was very much a league in recovery, from the devastation of a European ban. We were also severely hampered by the home-grown rule, preventing us playing our best team - what use is a golden generation when you can't play a Roy Keane or a Peter Schmeichel alongside them? To have expected Ferguson to have cleaned up in Europe during this period is delusion. 1999 was a timely coming of age for United and for the league. It was around the turn of the century when United were well-placed to add another CL. The CL is such a long, arduous and difficult competition that it wasn't to be. Would I trade the ups and many downs, and the uber-competitiveness of the CL for Fergie to have played in a much less expansive and easier European Cup format and won a few more - not a chance in hell.
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That's quite a rant there fellah. You've not really answered many of my points though, but put forward quite a few excuses. Pretty much what I expected really. I expected much better from you :nono:
 
BarneyLFC said:
I told you it might not happen here. Suso is one player I'm convinced will be a star, similar to your lot and Januzaj.
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I'm always suspicious of loan deals that send a kid back to their homeland. If you want to get him used to the league then let him go experience the Championship.

The last thing I'd want to do is send them over to the nice climate they're used to, have them speaking Spanish at training and on the pitch and making them resent the thoughts of going back to the cold, dark, North-West of England.
 
redman5 said:
That's quite a rant there fellah. You've not really answered many of my points though, but put forward quite a few excuses. Pretty much what I expected really. I expected much better from you :nono:
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You're not really making any points that haven't already been answered. It's now just a bitter and delusional diatribe against a manager you despise. I've laid out my points, unclouded by the the same vitriol you hold for our manager, and you have failed to produce any coherent argument.

The argument has kind of lost track. The original debate was over whether you can compare cross-era achievements between two vastly different competitions in terms of difficulty. I feel that was long since settled (kudos to Alex99 for the stats which proved beyond doubt what we already knew), and this has now turned into you taking out some of that 20-year Ferguson-induced impotent rage. Such is how you choose to spend many hours of your life here.

By all means, knock yourself out if it makes you feel better. :)
 
2014_05_30_times.jpg

Times article on transfers from Tony Barrett.
 
BarneyLFC said:
Tony Barrett - Liverpool have tabled a £16m offer for Moreno, the Sevilla left back, which would also allow them to take Suso on loan.

Such a strange offer. Has anyone seen enough of Moreno to give us a description? He was bang average in the Europa league final, but he was excellent for Spain last summer.
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I thought he was dreadful in the Europa final, only been rather good on some occasions when I've seen him. Being objective here. I really don't see the hype. Neither do Sevilla fans - they're all absolutely delighted if you look at their forum.
 
Kraftwerker said:
(3) Ferguson's CL record was unmatched until this weekend past (congratulations Ancelotti).
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[Full seasons only]

Ferguson: 20 attempts, 2 titles
Ancelotti: 10 attempts, 3 titles
Mourinho: 10 attempts, 2 titles
Hitzfeld: 8 attempts, 2 titles
Guardiola: 5 attempts, 2 titles
Heynckes: 3 attempts, 2 titles
del Bosque: 3 attempts, 1 title [He joined Real Madrid in November 1999 the first time he won the Champions League]

:confused:
 
Not sure if Kraftwerker's a WUM or if he genuinely believes everything he posts.
 
Anti-DNA said:
[Full seasons only]

Ferguson: 20 attempts, 2 titles
Ancelotti: 10 attempts, 3 titles
Mourinho: 10 attempts, 2 titles
Hitzfeld: 8 attempts, 2 titles
Guardiola: 5 attempts, 2 titles
Heynckes: 3 attempts, 2 titles
del Bosque: 3 attempts, 1 title [He joined Real Madrid in November 1999 the first time he won the Champions League]

:confused:
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You're kidding me with the Heynckes stat right?

He managed Benfica, Munich, Madrid, Leverkusen and still only played in the CL for only three seasons?
 
KM said:
You're kidding me with the Heynckes stat right?

He managed Benfica, Munich, Madrid, Leverkusen and still only played in the CL for only three seasons?
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My friend, please note that I mentioned "full seasons only". But if you want to see a European overview for each started season of Jupp Heynckes post-1992 [must be at least four months], here it is:

1992-93 [Athletic Bilbao]: no European qualification
1993-94 [Athletic Bilbao]: no European qualification
1994-95 [Eintracht Frankfurt]: no European qualification [left position April 1995]
1995-96 [Tenerife]: no European qualification
1996-97 [Tenerife]: no European qualification
1997-98 [Real Madrid]: Champions League winner
1999-00 [Benfica]: no European qualification
2001-02 [Athletic Bilbao]: no European qualification
2002-03 [Athletic Bilbao]: no European qualification
2003-04 [Schalke]: no European qualification
2006-07 [Mönchengladbach]: no European qualification [left position January 2007]
2009-10 [Leverkusen]: no European qualification
2010-11 [Leverkusen]: no European qualification
2011-12 [Bayern]: Champions League finalist
2012-13 [Bayern]: Champions League winner

As you can see, I am not kidding. You can check the information for yourself.
 
Thanks for the that, wow. Those are incredible stats. 1 finals and 2 titles in 3 seasons of CL for Heynckes. Brilliant.
 
DJ Jeff said:
I thought he was dreadful in the Europa final, only been rather good on some occasions when I've seen him. Being objective here. I really don't see the hype. Neither do Sevilla fans - they're all absolutely delighted if you look at their forum.
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He's only 21 isn't he ? Bit harsh to judge him just yet. I've not really seen that much of him to comment, but the fact that you say he's been 'rather good on some occasions' would suggest that he has the ability, but not the consistency - yet - to become a really good player.
 
Carl said:
What's weird about it? It may be a United board but this is in the Liverpool thread.
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There is about four Liverpool fans here. Who probably all read the same amount of shite from everywhere as that guy who re-posts it here with his own 'oooh this is relevant information guize!' spin. It's weird.
 
goldenstatesplash said:
There is about four Liverpool fans here. Who probably all read the same amount of shite from everywhere as that guy who re-posts it here with his own 'oooh this is relevant information guize!' spin. It's weird.
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It's not weird at all. We welcome and encourage rival fans on this board. I'd say it wouldn't be particularly welcoming or encouraging if we didn't allow them to discuss potential transfers to their club. Would it?

If you don't want to chew the fat with Liverpool fans about all things Liverpool then I'd say you'd be best to avoid the thread titled "Liverpool".
 
Carl said:
It's not weird at all. We welcome and encourage rival fans on this board. I'd say it wouldn't be particularly welcoming or encouraging if we didn't allow them to discuss potential transfers to their club. Would it?
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But then wouldn't that be in the 'transfer forum'. We can talk about Liverpool as much as we like, seeing as it is a football forum. Trying to relay pseudoITK for information is like me going down to a busy bus stop and telling someone about my day. "I've nearly made my budget this month and I am looking at getting a pretty big raise. At the moment it's stalled because there is still some paperwork to finalize..." while smiling.. And then wandering off to do a bit of shopping before dinner.
 
goldenstatesplash said:
But then wouldn't that be in the 'transfer forum'. We can talk about Liverpool as much as we like, seeing as it is a football forum. Trying to relay pseudoITK for information is like me going down to a busy bus stop and telling someone about my day. "I've nearly made my budget this month and I am looking at getting a pretty big raise. At the moment it's stalled because there is still some paperwork to finalize..." while smiling.. And then wandering off to do a bit of shopping before dinner.
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So what you're saying is that you actually want more Liverpool threads? Interesting... ;)
 
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