You're not likely to get many Muslims to agree that the likes of ISIS or Al-Qaeda are representative of their religion.
ISIS in Iraq and Syria
- Thread starter Suli
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
You're not likely to get many Muslims to agree that the likes of ISIS or Al-Qaeda are representative of their religion.
Of course not. What gave you the impression that I think that?
Are you implying that the ISIS leadership is atheist/non-theistic, and that they are deliberately exploiting religion for their own purposes?
I don't believe that to be true, but even if it were, it would still make ISIS a religious organisation. Joseph Smith was a conman who didn't believe in what he preached, but that doesn't mean that the early Mormon Church was not religious.
Why does that matter?
Those nutjobs at WestBoro Baptist Church turn the stomachs of most Christians and would certainly be rejected as representatives of Christianity by 99% of Christians, but that doesn't mean that they are not a Christian or religious group.
No, I'm suggesting they are skewing religion as a means to murder and control people
Well it does matter because it infers what they are doing is somehow a legitimate representation of an entire religion - which it is clearly not. So a bit of clarification is warranted.
Many? I think you're wrong. It's probably in the tens of millions.
10s of millions compared with 1.6 Billion muslims would still be a very small percentage.
You're splitting hairs. It's a heck of a lot of people.
That's assuming your number is even remotely accurate. I don't know any Muslims who condone what ISIS do. They're so extreme that even Al-Qaeda booted them out.
Religions tends to be fractured into competing sects anyway, so being denounced by people who worship the same religion is hardly indicative of them not being religious.
I imagine that those at the top of ISIS do believe that what they are doing is their religious duty, or at least that there is moral approval from their religion. So I'm not sure how much skewing there is going on.
Putting aside the question of who gets to decide what is a legitimate representation of a particular religion, I don't think it matters at all. What matters is that they believe that they are a legitimate representation of the religion and the God to whom they proclaim allegiance, and so do their followers. That alone makes them religious in nature. Islamic theology can be used to deny that what they are doing is compatible with the Quran, but conversely, ISIS can use theology to deny that what the rest of the Muslim world is doing is compatible with the Quran. That's the nature of religion.
Not to split hairs but it does actually matter. Conceding it doesn't matter would be tantamount to saying anyone with any bizarre, yet vaguely similar connection with a particular religion, is representative of that religion; irrespective of the fact they are in the extreme minority and their views are completely rejected by legitimate religious scholars. Therefore its inaccurate to label this as a religious, or even a sectarian conflict. It is fundamentally a conflict of power and identity where groups are using religion as a vehicle to affect change, all the while having little connection with any sort of recognized religious doctrine.
Raoul is spot on with everything.
I am a muslim. It's very interesting, the only difference between bible and Quran is that we believe that Jesus is just a prophet and Christians believe that he is son of God. That's all, everything else is the same. Bible and Quran both preach for peace and they have a guideline for us to live our life.
Where in Quran it says to kill innocent people on the name off religion, no where, not even a word. All these extremist groups are driven by political powers, they use religion/race to start a war and gain their political interest.
I think we all agree with that but recognize that a lot of it's adherents believe nutty shit like beheadings and stonings and honour killings are acceptable.
Well said.
I think if a group is going to claim to be a representative of a particular religion, its religious positions do need to bear some resemblance to the positions that were apparently set out by the prophets/god/gods that are recognised to belong to that religion. But to be classified as religious in a general sense, religious positions alone count as sufficient qualification.
The problem comes from the definition of innocent.
As you know, the Quran details the killings and executions of thousands of people under Muhammad's conquests. Men, women and children. These killings are legitimised by the Quran as punishment for the guilty, but often a person was deemed 'guilty' for merely refusing to declare allegiance to Muhammad, or for crimes such as blasphemy.
Are you only a true muslim if you follow the Quran to the letter? If so then there's not as many muslims as we all think.
Spot on. In ISIS eyes the people who rebel against them, apostate or reject a part of Islam (such as jihad) have left the fold of Islam and they are allowed to be executed.
Those killings were legitimised because it was a war! Not after or before the wars. After the wars Muhammad always showed mercy and forgave. That's the real version off events.
No, as long as you believe that there is only one God and Muhammad is his prophet - you are a Muslim.
I am Muslim, but I drink I go out, I have a girl friend, I have a dog, which are all forbidden in our religion - but it doesn't make you a non Muslim. Just that you have Sind and you will be punished.
Yes, but as far as these guys are concerned, they are at war.
I think you're safe, mate. Enjoy your drink, girlfriend and dog without guilt.
So these nutters who behead people are muslims too if they believe what you say?
You can't have a dog? I didn't know that.
It is not permissible for a Muslim to keep a dog, unless he needs it for hunting, guarding livestock or guarding crops
Off course they are Muslim by religion, but what they preach is not Islam.. More like kids sexual abuse in churches - Christians do it, it's wrong thing to do but it doesn't make them non Christian, just they Sind big time and they will be punished.
Yeah, dog is forbidden in our religion, you can't have a pet dog but if you are a shepherd or a farmer you can keep one. Screw that, I love my duke!
I really don't understand how you can be a Muslim if you believe you will be punished for all eternity for having a dog. Which you clearly don't really believe, or you wouldn't risk having a dog.
Is it like when people are "culturally Christian"?
Is it like when people are "culturally Christian"?
So you are practising Islam doggy style then.
Shut up man or i blow you. Allah o Akbar, here I come
Then why are none of these groups using christianity as a reason for war? There is a common theme here and that is Islam. People travel from all over the world to join up with ISIL and similar groups in Syria and other conflicts in the region, and they do it because they feel a religious reason to do so. Its a cop out to claim that religion is not involved. Religion is at the core.
Ofc you can personally disagree with these guys even though you are a muslim, but these nutjobs are also muslims. You cant just decide that they arent because you dont have the same religious interpretation of Islam.
Blimey, being a Muslim doesn't mean you can't Sin.. God has promised us in Quran that if you sin and accept that you did and come towards me for forgiveness, I will forgive you. Just like what they preach in churches!
Stupid comparison. The catholic priests who abused kids didnt say that they did it in the name of God.
In the context of saying ISIL is non-Islamic, that is.
Why would you get punished eternally for owning a dog? You probably don't believe in religion but heres how it works in Islam.
There are 5 prayers, in each prayer your minor sins are instantly wiped away. Even if they were as much as the foam on the ocean and if they reached the peaks of the sky they would be wiped away. That is unless you have a major sin on your name, but those are wiped away through sincere repentance. Owning a dog isn't a major sin, as far as I know.
Also, Muslims believe that no Muslim will be punished eternally in hell. They will either be instantly granted heaven or they get punished in the grave and then granted heaven or they suffer for a while in hell and then are admitted into heaven. Its very detailed and complex.
religions arent logic, precise and coherent ideas, therefore different people interpret sources (bible, quran etc.pp) very different. The human feature to feel empathy leads most people to a civilized/peaceful interpretation of religion, which is desirable, but from a logic point of view a violent or a non-violent interpretation are pretty much equally (un)convincing. Its personal bias.
Claiming that your own interpretation is the only true and right one, is actually the problem.
Claiming that your own interpretation is the only true and right one, is actually the problem.
In, out, shake it all about...
I never said they are not muslim.. But killing your own Muslim brother or blowing innocent civilians is not what Islam preach. Why Muslims but not Christians - well let's look at mass graves in Iraq and Afghanistan and find out. Christians and Jews are calling all the shots, and we Muslims living in third world falling for it big time. No education, far away from modern civilisation, wreak economy. Here is the gun and bomb - go and blow that building for money.
Christians and Jews calling the shots and Muslims falling for it? Are you implying theres some non-Muslim entity or group thats pulling strings behind groups like ISIL?
I hope no one ends up using really long paragraphs in this thread.
Just quickly before I go to watch football.
Iraq invasion/ oil
Afghanistan invasion/ check in world map where Afghanistan is, you will find you answer
On the name off al Qaeda how many countries have been invaded
Iraq or Afghanistan wasnt invaded because of religious beliefs or in the name of the Christian God. American/Western involvement in the region is not religiously motivated.
Check where Afghanistan is and I'll find my answer? I dont follow. I dont see any religious christian influence in the region.
Al Qaeda hasnt invaded any countries but thats not what we are discussing. We are discussing the disparity between Islam and other religions in terms of committing violent acts and starting wars in the name of religion. Al Qaeda is a violent, highly influential religious group. What Christian or Jewish group can compare?
I think there is a misunderstanding between me and you, or maybe I didn't make myself clear on what my views are.
There is no debate off Christian/Jews against Muslims. Unfortunately Islam is been painted as a violent religion across the world just for political/financial gains. I will say it again, no matter how many beheading or other disgusting clips you see in media, that's not Islam or anything which you can relate to Islam.
Iraq has fallen on the name off terrorism, for oil
Afghanistan is destroyed by Americas puppets Taliban(yes the are) now Americans and co are there, if you looked at world map you will see Afghanistan has borders with Russia,Iran,China ( mountains), Pakistan and you can get to Indian Ocean and the rest. That's why we afghans believe America and co are in our country.
Any country America and co don't like the label them Al-Qaeda, Syria comes to mind or Libya
It's simple, unfortunately we have some greedy leaders who are making us live in fare and hate. Christians/Muslims/Hindu etc who cares.
What is sad is that two sects of the same religion kill each other - sects who became enemies over a 1300 year old debate on who should succeed the prophet
I cannot imagine the prophet being happy over Muslims killing Muslims
I cannot imagine the prophet being happy over Muslims killing Muslims