Shinji Kagawa

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Just re-watch the group stage matches, and forget about stats from a website.
Cassidy, i did not appeal to assist in the last post. Read it again.
I asked you if you could point out any other moments that would not register as chance created in stats but would show Kagawa can split the defense. Apart from the Smalling's goal one. And you fail to name even two-three more examples of that. Now, i wonder why is that?
 
I am extremely disappointed that it hasn't worked out for Shinji but I think there are some people here that blindly have faith in him. Had he been a Young or a Fellaini, people would instantly be less tolerant. I think people have a soft spot for him as he was a really good player for Dortmund and most people have a man-crush fascination with that team.

Most of Kagawa's supporters pick out games where he played well, but as there were so few games that he did play well, I think it's easy to remember them. In terms of him as a player and his style, he doesn't really bring anything to the table or do anything that Rooney and Mata can't do.

Sad to say it, but might as well get rid of him now before his value deteriorates further :(

I think those who right him off say things like that.
However there is usually a noticable difference to the way we are able to maintain possesion and look more fluid on the ball when he is on the pitch. Because of his constant movement and always being available for the pass, and looking to move the ball quickly. (This is not Rooneys game) Even though they are both No10 they are very different players.

Anyway I still maintain his time is up and United, but I think people who right him off are also not very objective about him. He was never given a decent run of games under Moyes (even when players were injured) and that is a fact.
 
Cassidy, i did not appeal to assist in the last post. Read it again.
I asked you if you could point out any other moments that would not register as chance created in stats but would show Kagawa can split the defense. Apart from the Smalling's goal one. And you fail to name even two-three more examples of that. Now, i wonder why is that?

Yes and I said you should re-watch the matches.
Or you can watch the video posted above by @MoneyMay

EDIT: In the first couple minutes of the video posted there are two chances against Sociedad where he puts the ball across the box for Hernezdez where he fails to connect. I haven't even bothered to watch the full video, I know there are more.

Anyway my point is that instead of getting stats from a website, go and watch the games if you want to see how creative he was.

Fact when we played Sociaded we were rubbish and created nothing until Kagawa came onto the field.
 
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Yes and I said you should re-watch the matches.
Or you can watch the video posted above by @MoneyMay
That proves my point everything worth of note there are exactly the "chances created". Well with couple exceptions and simple passes to a full back and stuff like that.
 
I am extremely disappointed that it hasn't worked out for Shinji but I think there are some people here that blindly have faith in him. Had he been a Young or a Fellaini, people would instantly be less tolerant. I think people have a soft spot for him as he was a really good player for Dortmund and most people have a man-crush fascination with that team.

Most of Kagawa's supporters pick out games where he played well, but as there were so few games that he did play well, I think it's easy to remember them. In terms of him as a player and his style, he doesn't really bring anything to the table or do anything that Rooney and Mata can't do.

Sad to say it, but might as well get rid of him now before his value deteriorates further :(
I absolutely agree 100%. Juan Mata is United's best number 10. For me selling Kagawa wouldn't be a mistake.
 
That proves my point everything worth of note there are exactly the "chances created". Well with couple exceptions and simple passes to a full back and stuff like that.

Ha you didn't watch it did you.

EDIT: In the first couple minutes of the video posted there are two chances against Sociedad where he puts the ball across the box for Hernezdez where he fails to connect. I haven't even bothered to watch the full video, I know there are more.

"Chances created" only includes efforts where there was a shot by the attacker, if the attacker fails to get the shot away the stat is not counted.

Anyway my point is that instead of getting stats from a website, go and watch the games if you want to see how creative he was.

Fact when we played Sociaded we were rubbish and created nothing until Kagawa came onto the field.

EDIT: I'm not saying this to say he is Gods gift, IMO he had a rubbish season and he should probably leave to get his career back on track. However some of what I read about him being utter useless is a joke, and when you say he wasn't creative in the UCL, well that is a complete joke.
 
Anyway my point is that instead of getting stats from a website, go and watch the games if you want to see how creative he was.
I've seen the games and he was by far less creative than Rooney and even less creative than Valencia.
Ha you didn't watch it did you.
EDIT: In the first couple minutes of the video posted there are two chances against Sociedad where he puts the ball across the box for Hernezdez where he fails to connect. I haven't even bothered to watch the full video, I know there are more.
I've seen like first 5-6 minutes. And most of things there were rather trivial inetplay in the middle, as i've mentioned in the first post on subject. As for crosses, if you gonna count any dangerous cross in the box as a moment created, then Valencia surely was much more creative than Kagawa. Head and shoulders. He put dozens of them in the box. With attacker failed to connect to them.
 
I've seen the games and he was by far less creative than Rooney and even less creative than Valencia.
I've seen like first 5-6 minutes. And most of things there were rather trivial inetplay in the middle, as i've mentioned in the first post on subject. As for crosses, if you gonna count any dangerous cross in the box as a moment created, then Valencia surely was much more creative than Kagawa. Head and shoulders. He put dozens of them in the box. With attacker failed to connect to them.

We'll just have to agree have to agree to disagree.

I'm not counting any dangerous cross, these we're balls played to Hernandez, whether or not they were played accros the box or not, they are chances created. If your going to say those were not chances created then ok fair enough.

It seems to me you are not able to give the lad any credit at all for his UCL performances, heck even Moyes could.

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896...agawa-performance-after-real-sociedad-victory
 
Not only, but they are the most important contribution attacking players make in the game. I will ask you one more time, if Kagawa played well against Munich away, tell me what good things in attack he actually did? What exactly has he delivered?

Rooney played dreadful i agree, but he was great in other matches, including Munich at OT where he was our best player in attack, apart from actual assist via corner albeit, he was the one who made that great pass to Welbeck for his one-on-one run. Now has Kagawa doe anything similar in the away game?

Lets see how Kagawa plays under LVG, i think if he bottles another season, excuses about him would really run dry.

What do you want to know? He created an opening for player x at 7:51 pm? He then got into a good position 4 minutes later but got ignored by Rooney? At 8:02 pm he started a good counter-attack which sadly wasn't continued by player y? You see? Not saying Kagawa is anywhere as good as Iniesta, but if you took Iniesta for example and just relied on goals and assists, then you would completely ignore his immense and mostly very crucial contribution.

But knowing your posts you will again ask what exactly Kagawa did, but this time I won't repeat myself.
 
Think his days at Utd are numbered. The RVP signing killed any chance had of being a success here, before he had even started. Sad to see him go but he needs to be at a club where he's not vying for a game in his best position with players of the calibre of Mata and Rooney. We are just way too bloated in his position and have no European games to rotate the squad. I don't think he's the type of wide player LVG favours either. I'd take the hand off anyone that offered £12-15m for him.
 
We'll just have to agree have to agree to disagree.

I'm not counting any dangerous cross, these we're balls played to Hernandez, whether or not they were played accros the box or not, they are chances created. If your going to say those were not chances created then ok fair enough.

It seems to me you are not able to give the lad any credit at all for his UCL performances, heck even Moyes could.

http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2896...agawa-performance-after-real-sociedad-victory
Moyes was just supporting his player i think.
There are many types of credit. If you say "Kagawa was much better in CL than in PL". I would agree completely. I've said the same thing, than Kagawa looks much better in Europe, because the game there is much less pacy, physical and more possession based. If you'd say that Kagawa had a decent matches in CL group matches and looked generally okay, i would still agree. Yes he did, i can't really remember one CL game where Kagawa looked as bad as against Norwich away for example. And there are many more "credits" or praises that i am happy to give him really. But you said he was United's "most creative player". And i just can't agree with that, cause i think it's not true. And apart from Rooney i think there were other players who were more creative. For example, Giggs, who missed some matches in the group but made up for this by playing godlike in Olympiakos home game.
So it's not about giving credit in general.
 
I always get the impression that Honda is a better player than Kagawa, everytime i watch Japan play.
 
I always get the impression that Honda is a better player than Kagawa, everytime i watch Japan play.
Me too. Although to be fair rarely watch them. But Honda always looks much more ballsy, confident player, and not short on skill either.
 
I always get the impression that Honda is a better player than Kagawa, everytime i watch Japan play.
Same, I can begin to see why he is preferred in the hole than Kagawa. He makes stuff happen, Kagawa rarely does it for us, even when he does play in the middle.
 
The thing with Kagawa is that he's different from typical attacking midfielders. He's not one to always try risky and dangerous passes. His game is more about his movement and positioning, incisive runs beyond the defences, linking up with teammates, moving the ball around quickly, playing short, quick passes (i.e. give-and-goes, flicks, etc.), and always being available for a pass. In this case, he's more of a second striker than an attacking midfielder, which is the reason why he's had 10+ goals per season in the Bundesliga.

Note: the following stats are from WhoScored.com that only keep track of league and European statistics in detail (no domestic cup stats are detailed)
Definitions of the following terms according to WhoScored.com:
- Through ball: An attempted/accurate pass between opposition players in their defensive line to find an onrushing teammate (running through on goal)
- Cross: An attempted/accurate pass from a wide position to a central attacking area
- Long ball: An attempted/accurate pass of 25 yards or more


In Kagawa's Borussia Dortmund days (his best performances), he attempted 19 through balls, 59 crosses, and 112 long balls in the 2010/11 and 2011/12 seasons combined. Compare this to Mata at his best 2 seasons at Chelsea who attempted 49 through balls, 600 crosses, and 323 long balls in the 2011/12 and 2012/13 seasons combined. For fun, let's involve David Silva at his best 2 seasons at Man. City, as well, who attempted 126 through balls, 257 crosses, and 161 long balls in the 2011/12 and 2013/14 seasons combined.

These stats may tell you that Kagawa doesn't like to take risks and prefers the safer passes than the risky ones. However, Kagawa's passing accuracy (81.9%) is lower than those of Mata (85.9%) and Silva (87.6%). This tells you that Kagawa still played a risky game by being heavily involved in the final third trying to pass and move around/through the opposition in tight spaces. This is unlike Mata and Silva, who often dropped deeper and maintained possession for lengthy periods of time before attempting something.

Kagawa's not good at handling physical pressure from the opposition. He's not the best at taking his man on (though is decent at it). He's also not willing to play long balls, through balls, and crosses into the box (though his crossing and through balls are pretty dangerous). In this case, he can't be relied upon to create the majority of our chances. However, what he can be relied upon is to make our passing quicker, make our attacks more incisive, and provide us with more goalscoring opportunities.
 
The thing with Kagawa is that he's different from typical attacking midfielders. He's not one to always try risky and dangerous passes. His game is more about his movement and positioning, incisive runs beyond the defences, linking up with teammates, moving the ball around quickly, playing short, quick passes (i.e. give-and-goes, flicks, etc.), and always being available for a pass. In this case, he's more of a second striker than an attacking midfielder, which is the reason why he's had 10+ goals per season in the Bundesliga.

Note: the following stats are from WhoScored.com that only keep track of league and European statistics in detail (no domestic cup stats are detailed)
Definitions of the following terms according to WhoScored.com:
- Through ball: An attempted/accurate pass between opposition players in their defensive line to find an onrushing teammate (running through on goal)
- Cross: An attempted/accurate pass from a wide position to a central attacking area
- Long ball: An attempted/accurate pass of 25 yards or more


In Kagawa's Borussia Dortmund days (his best performances), he attempted 19 through balls, 59 crosses, and 112 long balls in the 2010/11 and 2011/12 seasons combined. Compare this to Mata at his best 2 seasons at Chelsea who attempted 49 through balls, 600 crosses, and 323 long balls in the 2011/12 and 2012/13 seasons combined. For fun, let's involve David Silva at his best 2 seasons at Man. City, as well, who attempted 126 through balls, 257 crosses, and 161 long balls in the 2011/12 and 2013/14 seasons combined.

These stats may tell you that Kagawa doesn't like to take risks and prefers the safer passes than the risky ones. However, Kagawa's passing accuracy (81.9%) is lower than those of Mata (85.9%) and Silva (87.6%). This tells you that Kagawa still played a risky game by being heavily involved in the final third trying to pass and move around/through the opposition in tight spaces. This is unlike Mata and Silva, who often dropped deeper and maintained possession for lengthy periods of time before attempting something.

Kagawa's not good at handling physical pressure from the opposition. He's not the best at taking his man on (though is decent at it). He's also not willing to play long balls, through balls, and crosses into the box (though his crossing and through balls are pretty dangerous). In this case, he can't be relied upon to create the majority of our chances. However, what he can be relied upon is to make our passing quicker, make our attacks more incisive, and provide us with more goalscoring opportunities.

I've pointed it out before but I believe this to be the case as well. I never rated or expected Kagawa to be providing assists, dribbling or goals in big numbers - it has never really been his strength. Why you field Kagawa on the pitch is for one reason only which is that he makes the team tick by controlling the tempo of the game and this is an aspect he has improved while at United where tempo isn't a guarantee like it was at Dortmund.

He is among the very best in the world at forcing his team to start play faster football by making a run in to space requesting the ball and then making short passes and then a run in to space and requesting the ball to repeat it again. This forces the team to stray away from zombie-passing and to become a cohesive team where the forward and midfield are fluidly linked as is the right wing and left wing.

I haven't seen a United player with this ability since Scholes left or turned too old to perform at the highest level, which is when our Zombie passing started as well.

I am one of those who supposedly rate Kagawa highly and think he has done well here under the circumstances, but I think I have the lowest expectations because I don't think he is played to go out there and win us matches - just make us more cohesive and fluid. Nearly every game he has played he has succeeded with this and for me his overall abilities are just a bonus. His through-balls/crosses/finishing/work-rate are at a really high level, but I think it is clear that Mata is better in this regard.

Though Kagawa puts in a shift in the central midfield when he plays for us, which is where tempo needs to be built and started, whereas Mata expects the tempo to already exist and waits further forward to provide his brilliant last-third plays.

I would personally love to see Kagawa in an offensive central midfield role in a CM trio with Mata because of it, his abilities to link the midfield with the defense, and particularly the offense is at the highest level and a crucial thing for a team to have. We would be very creative going forward and the zombie-style of the past would be long gone with a top DM who packs a longer range of passing as well behind them.
 
Honda is a youtube footballer, even when available on a free not many top clubs were interested and his been poor for Milan. Honestly don't see all the hype surrounding him.
 
I just hope LvG can get the best out of Kagawa because Sir Alex and Moyes both failed at that.

Well, every manager has a different idea of how football should be played so "the best suited players" will change depending on which manager and tactics are used. Under Moyes we saw so many players fail that the time isn't very relevant, I am sure we will see almost every player perform better under LVG.

SAF seemed very aware on how to get the best out of Kagawa, he was bought to play as the central attacking midfielder and the signing of RVP was the only reason Kagawa failed to make a grander impact. SAF tried to convert us back to a 4-4-1-1 team with Berbatov-Rooney, then Rooney-Chica/Welbeck and when he saw his chance to make a last punt at making a 4-4-1-1 work at the highest level with an absolute dream pairing of RVP and Rooney he went for it - and notoriously failed again.

I think if SAF had been here during last season Rooney would have been in the same situation he was at the end of SAF's last season. Where he was considered more of a winger/bench for the hardest games in which case Kagawa would have been very sure to be the next in line for the CAM role. After all SAF trusted and rated Kagawa and had him start plenty of matches when he wasn't injured, so I think as he already admitted his Rooney-RVP dream was a burnt ship Kagawa would have been the obvious next in line.

There is no excuse for Kagawa not to perform under LVG, he is notorious for his offensively minded possession dominating play in the offense, and pressing defense. That is a system that perfectly suits Kagawa and LVG won't give a toss if Rooney earns 250 k a week and is a big superstar or not. It won't help Rooney start any matches at all, so if Kagawa continues to fail to break in to the first eleven he has no more excuses.

Of course it will take the team some time to memorize LVG's tactics and all players who will be required to change position or role will need even more time than so. I believe Kagawa will have his best chances to start as a CM, in which case he will take some time to learn the slightly more defensive role.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kagawa puts Mata on the bench for the AM role either though, LVG has a history of doing random stuff nobody could logically explain from the outside until the season starts. Like putting so much trust in a young Muller all of a sudden and basically having him as the teams only free-roled attacker ahead of Robben, Kroos, Ribery, Schweinsteiger and so forth.
 
Where on earth is mad winger?

If you don't tag me or quote me, I wont get any alerts. I don't read this thread everytime it's bumped:p

But I'm seriously starting to lose patience with this thread. It's just the same thing over and over again. The fact that a single bad game from Japan can cause this much "outrage" just proves that my "job" of "defending" Kagawa will never end. As long as he's not our best player by a country mile, this thread will be bumped by the haters continuously, and the cycle goes on. It's pointless to jump in everytime.

Japan lost to Ivory Coast because of cowardice. They didn't dare to even try to play their normal fluid attacking football. Surprise surprise: it didn't work out. Not for Kagawa, not for Honda, or any of the other players. Japan suck at defending leads, which is why I'll never understand why they went for this approach to begin with. They've pissed on several better teams than Ivory Coast in friendlies. And if friendlies and Asian matches/qualifiers don't matter, then I guess Japan only has the chance of proving themselves every 4 years. No wonder they are so underrated then. One slip-up, and they have to wait 4 fecking years to redeem themselves. And the worst thing is that even if they do well in the WC, people will still forget it, because football fans are incredibly forgetful. It's hard for them to think about how things were just a short while ago, let alone 3-4 years. And what happens the moment they feck up, like so many other big nations do every damn world cup? Japan is back to being underrated. Because they don't have the luxury of already being considered a top team.

Kagawa's a class player with incredible potential. He might be overly dependent on his team playing well, but that hardly matters when he turns into a world class player when things run smoothly. He's a catalyst. Failure to make Kagawa play well = failure as a team. I challenge you to find a single game where the team played well while Kagawa was bad or even mediocre. Spoiler: you wont find it. The closest example would be our 4-2 victory over Leverkusen, but Kagawa was still as good as the team average even then. He didn't feck up the play or make any significant mistakes. He just couldn't affect the game as much as he normally would on a good day.

TDLR;
If you don't have room for a couple of catalysts in our team, then I'll save you haters another long, boring discussion by saying this: we just have completely different football ideologies. Move on!
 
TDLR;
If you don't have room for a couple of catalysts in our team, then I'll save you haters another long, boring discussion by saying this: we just have completely different football ideologies. Move on!

I don't think there are a lot of catalysts around in world-football. The last time United had a catalyst who controlled tempo was when Scholes was playing. After he was gone we started playing our Zombie-football as nobody controlled tempo and we were overeliant on his ability to do so. Chelsea and Liverpool doesn't have one, Arsenal has Ozil who I'd not call a catalyst so the only top teams with them are City with Silva and United with Kagawa.

Mata isn't a catalyst either, even if he is quite similar to one - he rarely controls the tempo but he is brilliant at playing in a high tempo himself and also comfortable in lower tempos as well. But Mata won't himself suddenly turn United's tempo up by falling down to midfield and starting short pass/move sequence with the central midfielders to make them increase the tempo of their passes.

Iniesta, Gotze, Silva, Xavi, Busquets, Iniesta, Kagawa, Kroos are the ones I can think of, possibly Ribery as well. Pirlo doesn't have the legs anymore to do that role but he did it previously really well.

Having one in your team is great, but far from a necessity - but playing one and not using their main ability as catalysts is pointless as that is their main traits. Ribery for example was furious with LVG when he was played as a left winger and wasn't allowed to roam freely to do what he does best.

I doubt Iniesta would play as a left midfielder for United but still provide the same catalysm to his teams as he does for Barcelona as an offensive CM. Even Silva failed as a false-9, so not even he is capable of providing it in any tactic.

Although he is the most flexible as he can play out wide as a winger and still provide this to a team.
 
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Kagawa is about as far from being a catalyst as it's possible to be. If the team plays well and he has space he'll look alright. He isn't a player to get the team going.
 
Having one in your team is great, but far from a necessity

Obviously it's not a necessity, but it's a brilliant weapon to have. Especially when the rest of the midfield is below par. Our wingers suck ass, and Carrick is pretty much useless offensively apart from the occasional longball. Kagawa would have been ideal to adapt into our team. Fergie thought so too, but Moyes disagreed.

My ideal football team plays like Dortmund did in between 2011 and 2013. I'd love it if United could do something similar. We wouldn't need to copy them or anything. Just encourage the players to move around more and don't be afraid to attack down the center or play risky passes.
 
Then he isn't a catalyst.

Could he not be considered a catalyst if he makes a 7 out of 10 team performance turn into an 8 or a 9 at a consistent rate?

What you're talking about, sounds more like a strong individualist. Generally, there aren't any players who can turn an average team into gold. It's impossible to do that single-handedly. You need at least a couple of other good players helping you then. What we do have though, are players who are so good individually that their individual brilliance lead to them scoring/assisting, or otherwise helping the team. Suarez is an example of this.
 
Then he isn't a catalyst.

That is stupid to say as the definition of the word both means someone who starts a change, or further accelerates a change. Kagawa(and the rest mentioned) is the type to accelerate it, you can't play neither of the catalysts I mentioned in the old Stoke and expect them to randomly turn the team in to a fluid and attacking side without the manager making the necessary changes in the entire team to allow it.
 
Im with @acnumber9 on this.

To me describing a player as a catalyst implies his presence inspires or lifts other players in the team to play better. Its not about making a great team out of rubbish players, its about getting the best out of others. Someone who makes others tick, not someone who excels when the team is ticking.

For all his qualities, Kagawa doesnt seem to be that kind of player. A catalyst where it takes you two years to figure out how to get it to facilitate a reaction is no kind of a catalyst.
 
As a chemical perhaps. If we're talking in the context of a person then they instigate. Kagawa does no such thing. He's a player that looks good in space which normally happens when the team is playing well. Players like Scholes and Keane were catalysts. Kagawa most definitely isn't.
 
Im with @acnumber9 on this.

To me describing a player as a catalyst implies his presence inspires or lifts other players in the team to play better. Its not about making a great team out of rubbish players, its about getting the best out of others. Someone who makes others tick, not someone who excels when the team is ticking.

For all his qualities, Kagawa doesnt seem to be that kind of player. A catalyst where it takes you two years to figure out how to get it to facilitate a reaction is no kind of a catalyst.

I disagree with that use of the term. When Kagawa plays extra-ordinary well he has the team playing extra-ordinary well even if he may not produce an assist or a goal or win 5 tackles and interceptions. So he is a catalysts because his main function is to get the entire team to produce a higher level performance.

By offering a passing option and pushing the team to play their passes faster he makes the team more fluid and cohesive when he links up the different parts of the team.
 
As a chemical perhaps. If we're talking in the context of a person then they instigate. Kagawa does no such thing. He's a player that looks good in space which normally happens when the team is playing well. Players like Scholes and Keane were catalysts. Kagawa most definitely isn't.

Scholes was a catalyst in his later days. Keane in particular was a leader, he'd inspire the entire team to work harder not because he made everything tick - in fact that wasn't a strength of his at all - but because of his leadership.
 
I disagree with that use of the term. When Kagawa plays extra-ordinary well he has the team playing extra-ordinary well even if he may not produce an assist or a goal or win 5 tackles and interceptions. So he is a catalysts because his main function is to get the entire team to produce a higher level performance.

By offering a passing option and pushing the team to play their passes faster he makes the team more fluid and cohesive when he links up the different parts of the team.
I never mentioned scoring goals, making tackles or getting assists. If he did influence the team to a higher level performance then yes, he would be a catalyst. Im just not sure he does that. he doesnt seem to influence the game in that way, to me. His best games were when the team was playing well, not necessarily (it didnt seem to me) because he was making that happen, just because that was happening and he was there benefiting from it.

A lot of the time he was there and we were rubbish. So if he is a catalyst, he is a very hit and miss catalyst. A catalyst that only works occasionally, or in certain conditions maybe.

A catalyst that needs a catalyst to facilitate the catalysation?

Unless I misunderstood MW he seemed to suggest the same thing a few posts ago:

If the team plays well, he most definitely is [a catalyst]

You see the point? A catalyst is supposed to make the team play well, not rely on it.
 
I never mentioned scoring goals, making tackles or getting assists. If he did influence the team to a higher level performance then yes, he would be a catalyst. Im just not sure he does that. he doesnt seem to influence the game in that way, to me. His best games were when the team was playing well, not necessarily (it didnt seem to me) because he was making that happen, just because that was happening and he was there benefiting from it.

A lot of the time he was there and we were rubbish. So if he is a catalyst, he is a very hit and miss catalyst. A catalyst that only works occasionally, or in certain conditions maybe.

A catalyst that needs a catalyst to facilitate the catalysation?

Unless I misunderstood MW he seemed to suggest the same thing a few posts ago:



You see the point? A catalyst is supposed to make the team play well, not rely on it.

A catalyst is also "someone who accelerates an already existing process."
Adding a catalyst to your engine won't change the performance of a 1 horse power motor to a F1 car by any means.

Kagawa always makes us tick better as a team, we are just at such a low level tactically that it isn't noticeable. Add 8 more outfield players who thrive in a high possession team with short passes and technicality then you will really see Kagawa work as a catalyst.

If you play Roy Keane as left winger in Barcelona he would be utter crap, he would see the bench instantly for Neymar/Pedro, even if his leadership without a doubt enhances the entire team performance. You still need a team that fits him, he wouldn't do the Busquets role better than Busquets either.

David Silva who is the most flexible catalyst has failed in teams at making the needed impact, even for Spain he failed as a false-9 where the team already had players suited to his style of football.

You can't play a player in any role and tactic and expect the same end result, it doesn't mean that Keane isn't a leader or Silva isn't a great catalyst.
 
A catalyst is also "someone who accelerates an already existing process."
Adding a catalyst to your engine won't change the performance of a 1 horse power motor to a F1 car by any means.

Kagawa always makes us tick better as a team, we are just at such a low level tactically that it isn't noticeable. Add 8 more outfield players who thrive in a high possession team with short passes and technicality then you will really see Kagawa work as a catalyst.

If you play Roy Keane as left winger in Barcelona he would be utter crap, he would see the bench instantly for Neymar/Pedro, even if his leadership without a doubt enhances the entire team performance. You still need a team that fits him, he wouldn't do the Busquets role better than Busquets either.

David Silva who is the most flexible catalyst has failed in teams at making the needed impact, even for Spain he failed as a false-9 where the team already had players suited to his style of football.

You can't play a player in any role and tactic and expect the same end result, it doesn't mean that Keane isn't a leader or Silva isn't a great catalyst.
So you see a catalyst as a type of player, rather than a player in a specific situation?

Keane is a catalyst, but at Barca on the wing he would be rubbish, therefore catalysts dont always make a difference?

I would say, Keane is a catalyst if you play him in the right role, if you put him on the wing at Barca he is no longer a catalyst.

Likewise Silva. He might be a catalyst at City and wherever else, I would argue in a team where he was failing to make an impact he is not a catalyst.

A player is not born a catalyst, a player is a catalyst when he is in the right place at the right time. Or that is my understanding of it anyway.

So maybe Kagawa can be a catalyst for us when the team is set up in a way that gets the best out of him. I have no doubt he could be a catalyst, or that he was at Dortmund. From what I hear, he was. I just dont think he is a catalyst for us because he doesnt lift the rest of the team, not in our current state anyway. Maybe you are right, maybe he does a fraction but its at such a low level we dont notice it.

Anyway, these kinds of debates are boring, we have different understandings of what a catalyst is in this context. You dont need to try and convince me of his potential, I completely believe in it. I just agree with ACNumber, a catalyst for me is the kind of player who when he is in the team it plays noticeably better, the kind of player where if you are missing him for a big game you think oh no, how are we going to cope without him. That for me is not even remotely Kagawa in our current circumstances.
 
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