Shinji Kagawa

[JPRouve]

Too many times have I seen Kagawa casually jogging with the ball and being easily tackled. He lacks aggression and urgency at times. I don't agree that Januzaj gets pushed off the ball easily, there's a reason why he is fouled soo much.

He does but he is clever when a player foul him he goes down. And Shaw proved us that it was easy to defend on Januzaj when he controls the ball.

But you're right Kagawa jogging sessions, piss me off. Just for that i won't be sad if he goes, despite the fact that i like the player.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Started watching the game just as he came on, from match reports prior to his entree I understood that Japan played like shit. He brought some vibe into the team, I've seen him dribbling ( which has happened hardly ever in United shirt ) and he's played magnificent ball to their fullback ( Ushida that was ? ) who basically provided a 100% to their striker who bottled it. Yet another match where Japan are horribly wasteful up front. Kagawa himself looked way above every other player though, that's including Honda who usually outshines him.

Yeah, partly wasteful - partly they played too one-dimensionally. Fullbacks (who did very well, regarded in isolation, be it said) crossing, Greece handling these crosses with ease. They looked far more dangerous whenever they kept the ball on the ground, predictably enough.

Seemed to me like Japan simply lacked something up front - someone to finish the moves off.

Anyway, Kagawa did well enough - but as others have pointed out he simply ain't the one who will go out there and win a match for you. In terms of being disappointed - I'd say Honda was more disappointing, as he has looked like a more dangerous player in the past, someone who is actually capable of stepping up in a match like that and kill it for his team.

 

[iBoss]

Yeah, yesterday Kagawa came on and looked hungry for a couple of minutes. He then proceeded to being invisible after the Uchida pass. He was probably Japan's best player, but that's not saying much.

 

[Lane]

Dispossessed 2 times and 4 turn overs. Similar to Welbeck, Rooney, Honda etc.

What annoys me about Kagawa having the "drop possession stats" of Rooney/Welbeck in the WC is that he has a great turnover and dispossession statistics for United even this season. Meaning he loses the ball due to his own mistakes least of our offensive players with Mata(who edges Kagawa with 0.1 less per game). The worst in the team by a mile is Januzaj who loses the ball due to individual mistakes two times more often than Mata/Kagawa and slightly more than Nani/Welbeck/Rooney who are poor in this regard as well.

In terms of being tackled/pushed off the ball by the opponent Mata is by far our worst player losing the ball 3 times per game this way. Closely followed by Nani and Rooney.

Really disappointed with Kagawa this World Cup, he is shooting himself in the foot here getting himself dropped and he was already in an outsider position with a need to prove himself, he can't afford it.

No he has not. It's pointless to look at turnover stat only, you need to look at it in in conjunction with dribble stats, as most turnover are results of failed dribble attempts. So in PL Kagawa has a 0.6 dribbles per game (only 10 dribbles completed in 18(4) matches) with a losses of the ball at 1.1 and he is dispossessed 1.8 times a game. Adnan has 1.9 dribbles completed per match (51 in 27(12) games), while he looses the ball 2 times per match and is dispossessed 2.1. So the difference in losses and successful dribbles is much better for Januzaj. It's kind of 46 dribble suc rate. He just attempts them more. While Kagawa is by far likely to loose the ball than dribble past an opponent, his suc rate is like 20%, two times worse. Dribbling is not the only thing that leads to these looses, but it does account for the most of them.

Overall, Kagawa looses the ball by mistakes and tackles at 2.9 times a match, and he manages 0.9 chances created, 0.6 dribbles, 0.8 shots per game and gets 0.4 times fouled. Yes, shots and chances created are not directly linked with the looses of the ball, but they do show that how many time a player find himself in dangerous situations, how many times he actually threatens opposition. And a player is more likely to loose a ball near the opponent's box, than in the middle of the park, when opponents rarely press you as hard.

So i would say that Kagawa dispossession stats are actually very bad. It's just impossible to see how exactly he manages to loose so many ball. He does not dribble, he is not really active in the opposition half in terms of being involved in shots or creating of ones. Of course we watch the games and see that Kagawa is very bad with protecting the ball, every time there is a physical challenge coming in he is likely to loose the ball. He does not loose it much because his energy levels are good and he manages to run a lot, find open spaces, mostly away from dangerous areas. And he also passes it short before opponent will go near him to actually make a tackle. So in a way Kagawa is simply not really involved in tackles by opposition and in 50-50s. Which is hardly a good thing for a AM. I definitely prefer someone with real skill, that maybe will loose the ball much more, but will actually threaten like Adnan. The gets fouled 2.2 times a game, he manages 1.7 shots, 1.9 dribbles and creates 1.1 chances for partners. You can just see this guy is at the center of things, he makes them happening.

 

[adexkola]

Stop using the word "turnover", this isn't the NBA.

I say this as an NBA fan

 

[Lane]

Stop using the word "turnover", this isn't the NBA.

I say this as an NBA fan

It's tedious to write "looses of the ball" all the time. And i don't particularly think that "giveaway" is better.

 

[Zoo]

Poor Shinji is lost without Jurgen Klopp.

 

[ManUArfa]

No he has not. It's pointless to look at turnover stat only, you need to look at it in in conjunction with dribble stats, as most turnover are results of failed dribble attempts. So in PL Kagawa has a 0.6 dribbles per game (only 10 dribbles completed in 18(4) matches) with a losses of the ball at 1.1 and he is dispossessed 1.8 times a game. Adnan has 1.9 dribbles completed per match (51 in 27(12) games), while he looses the ball 2 times per match and is dispossessed 2.1. So the difference in losses and successful dribbles is much better for Januzaj. It's kind of 46 dribble suc rate. He just attempts them more. While Kagawa is by far likely to loose the ball than dribble past an opponent, his suc rate is like 20%, two times worse. Dribbling is not the only thing that leads to these looses, but it does account for the most of them.

Overall, Kagawa looses the ball by mistakes and tackles at 2.9 times a match, and he manages 0.9 chances created, 0.6 dribbles, 0.8 shots per game and gets 0.4 times fouled. Yes, shots and chances created are not directly linked with the looses of the ball, but they do show that how many time a player find himself in dangerous situations, how many times he actually threatens opposition. And a player is more likely to loose a ball near the opponent's box, than in the middle of the park, when opponents rarely press you as hard.

So i would say that Kagawa dispossession stats are actually very bad. It's just impossible to see how exactly he manages to loose so many ball. He does not dribble, he is not really active in the opposition half in terms of being involved in shots or creating of ones. Of course we watch the games and see that Kagawa is very bad with protecting the ball, every time there is a physical challenge coming in he is likely to loose the ball. He does not loose it much because his energy levels are good and he manages to run a lot, find open spaces, mostly away from dangerous areas. And he also passes it short before opponent will go near him to actually make a tackle. So in a way Kagawa is simply not really involved in tackles by opposition and in 50-50s. Which is hardly a good thing for a AM. I definitely prefer someone with real skill, that maybe will loose the ball much more, but will actually threaten like Adnan. The gets fouled 2.2 times a game, he manages 1.7 shots, 1.9 dribbles and creates 1.1 chances for partners. You can just see this guy is at the center of things, he makes them happening.

I'm not defending Kagawa but surely it's a flawed argument to compare stats between players who have entirely different roles. Januzaj has been playing as a dribbling winger so will lose the ball more but will have far less involvement in the game than a player like Kagawa who has a tendency to sit deep and to play centrally. He likes to keep the play moving and build the attacks so will have far more touches in a game than Januzaj and in an area of the pitch where there is less space and far more tackles flying in.

 

[acnumber9]

It's tedious to write "looses of the ball" all the time. And i don't particularly think that "giveaway" is better.

And a little silly.

 

[Lane]

I'm not defending Kagawa but surely it's a flawed argument to compare stats between players who have entirely different roles. Januzaj has been playing as a dribbling winger so will lose the ball more but will have far less involvement in the game than a player like Kagawa who has a tendency to sit deep and to play centrally. He likes to keep the play moving and build the attacks so will have far more touches in a game than Januzaj and in an area of the pitch where there is less space and far more tackles flying in.

Was not my argument to begin with. Although the exact role of Kagawa is a complete mystery. His moving ball around sounds more like an excuse. It's not a job for AMs to simply pass it around CMs do that sometimes. Kagawa should create chances and score, put himself about. He may well not be such a dribbling player, but a his direct involvement in attacking play at United is just borderline pathetic.

 

[Empire]

Was not my argument to begin with. Although the exact role of Kagawa is a complete mystery. His moving ball around sounds more like an excuse. It's not a job for AMs to simply pass it around CMs do that sometimes. Kagawa should create chances and score, put himself about. He may well not be such a dribbling player, but a his direct involvement in attacking play at United is just borderline pathetic.

Last season United's attacking play was borderline pathetic. And the season before, his first in English football, I would not say was a bad season, therefore, for me his final chance lies with Louis.

 

[shamans]

The level of Kagawa devotion in the Newbies is something to behold.

I tend to think of myself as a pretty hardcore Rooney fanboy - while still retaining a modicum of objectivity when it comes to his performances, I hope - but these guys and girls were something else.

Remember someone once defending a Kagawa performance, for example, based on his 'clever hand signals' (whatever they are) which were clearly more important in creating a goal than the assist and the finish itself.

And then there was the famous video of Kagawa's awesomeness against Olympiakos, which was essentially a montage of him making a series of fairly routine runs into midfield space, and then not receiving a pass that might have been on, as demonstrated by Big White Arrows which someone had super-imposed over the top of it.

It had grown men weeping at the sight of such a monumental genius being so badly misused. . . .

I have nothing against the lad, and do in fact want him to succeed here. I remember when we signed Kagawa, and Chelsea signed Hazard, arguing that we might even have got the best deal, given the relative prices. I had a sneaking suspicion that he'd be a revelation.

But there's only so far you can go in trying to disguise the fact that his United career to date has been underwhelming, and it can't all be attributed to Moyes/the system/Rooney/mercury in retrograde/etc.

It is true. The newbs wasn't that bad in general but Kagawa was probably seen better than Ronaldo on there.

 

[Lane]

The level of Kagawa devotion in the Newbies is something to behold.

It is true. The newbs wasn't that bad in general but Kagawa was probably seen better than Ronaldo on there.

I don't know if it's connected, but i heard he is extremely popular, like a cult figure, in Asia, and we do have a lot of fans there.

Last season United's attacking play was borderline pathetic. And the season before, his first in English football, I would not say was a bad season, therefore, for me his final chance lies with Louis.

It was not good, but was not as bad as Kagawa's overall play i think. I mean somehow most of our attacking players were much better than Shinji.
But you are right, his final chance is with Louis, but it's the same for many players. The thing is United can't really sell them off the books effectively enough.

 

[Annahnomoss]

No he has not. It's pointless to look at turnover stat only, you need to look at it in in conjunction with dribble stats, as most turnover are results of failed dribble attempts. So in PL Kagawa has a 0.6 dribbles per game (only 10 dribbles completed in 18(4) matches) with a losses of the ball at 1.1 and he is dispossessed 1.8 times a game. Adnan has 1.9 dribbles completed per match (51 in 27(12) games), while he looses the ball 2 times per match and is dispossessed 2.1. So the difference in losses and successful dribbles is much better for Januzaj. It's kind of 46 dribble suc rate. He just attempts them more. While Kagawa is by far likely to loose the ball than dribble past an opponent, his suc rate is like 20%, two times worse. Dribbling is not the only thing that leads to these looses, but it does account for the most of them.

Overall, Kagawa looses the ball by mistakes and tackles at 2.9 times a match, and he manages 0.9 chances created, 0.6 dribbles, 0.8 shots per game and gets 0.4 times fouled. Yes, shots and chances created are not directly linked with the looses of the ball, but they do show that how many time a player find himself in dangerous situations, how many times he actually threatens opposition. And a player is more likely to loose a ball near the opponent's box, than in the middle of the park, when opponents rarely press you as hard.

So i would say that Kagawa dispossession stats are actually very bad. It's just impossible to see how exactly he manages to loose so many ball. He does not dribble, he is not really active in the opposition half in terms of being involved in shots or creating of ones. Of course we watch the games and see that Kagawa is very bad with protecting the ball, every time there is a physical challenge coming in he is likely to loose the ball. He does not loose it much because his energy levels are good and he manages to run a lot, find open spaces, mostly away from dangerous areas. And he also passes it short before opponent will go near him to actually make a tackle. So in a way Kagawa is simply not really involved in tackles by opposition and in 50-50s. Which is hardly a good thing for a AM. I definitely prefer someone with real skill, that maybe will loose the ball much more, but will actually threaten like Adnan. The gets fouled 2.2 times a game, he manages 1.7 shots, 1.9 dribbles and creates 1.1 chances for partners. You can just see this guy is at the center of things, he makes them happening.

I have never seen a post reek so much of bias before. Januzaj and Nani are clearly going to top those lists as they are the only dribblers we have in the team. Yet instead of comparing Rooney(Who you love) to Kagawa, and saying "Fair fecks, Rooney doesn't dribble a lot either but he still loses the ball much more - that is something Kagawa does good". You ignore Rooney and Mata and focus on why Januzaj loses the ball, and explaining why Januzaj loses the ball often suddenly turns the facts in to a "Kagawa is utter shit, because he has better stats than Januzaj but Januzaj dribbles more so Kagawa is shit :S".

Kagawa has been good for us in terms of keeping the ball, the issue with him is how he loses it when he actually does lose it - which often looks extremely silly like passing right to an opponent. Kagawa's tackling/interceptions and miles covered are also great, so if you want to critique him please do so without bias.

His offensive game is where he has failed, defensively he has been one of our best wingers and certainly the best option for the LM role. Credit where it is due and all that.

 

[acnumber9]

I have never seen a post reek so much of bias before. Januzaj and Nani are clearly going to top those lists as they are the only dribblers we have in the team. Yet instead of comparing Rooney(Who you love) to Kagawa, and saying "Fair fecks, Rooney doesn't dribble a lot either but he still loses the ball much more - that is something Kagawa does good". You ignore Rooney and Mata and focus on why Januzaj loses the ball, and explaining why Januzaj loses the ball often suddenly turns the facts in to a "Kagawa is utter shit, because he has better stats than Januzaj but Januzaj dribbles more so Kagawa is shit :S".

Kagawa has been good for us in terms of keeping the ball, the issue with him is how he loses it when he actually does lose it - which often looks extremely silly like passing right to an opponent. Kagawa's tackling/interceptions and miles covered are also great, so if you want to critique him please do so without bias.

His offensive game is where he has failed, defensively he has been one of our best wingers and certainly the best option for the LM role. Credit where it is due and all that.

Do you want him compared to wingers or not?

 

[Nighteyes]

Januzaj is better than Kagawa both centrally and on the left. So is Mata and as is Rooney. If he's happy being a squad player then fair enough but imo he is another who looks like he needs a move.

 

[Lane]

I have never seen a post reek so much of bias before. Januzaj and Nani are clearly going to top those lists as they are the only dribblers we have in the team. Yet instead of comparing Rooney(Who you love) to Kagawa, and saying "Fair fecks, Rooney doesn't dribble a lot either but he still loses the ball much more - that is something Kagawa does good". You ignore Rooney and Mata and focus on why Januzaj loses the ball, and explaining why Januzaj loses the ball often suddenly turns the facts in to a "Kagawa is utter shit, because he has better stats than Januzaj but Januzaj dribbles more so Kagawa is shit :S".

People who are complaining about bias are usually the most biased ones.
Lets compare Rooney, i've compared Adnan cause you mentioned him. No other reason at all. So Rooney.
1.6 dribbles (Kagawa - 0.6), 1.9 chances created (0.9 for Kagawa), 1.0 fouled (0.4 for Kagawa), lost the ball in total 3.9 times a game (2.9 for Kagawa). And that's without shots per game, as Rooney played as a CF these numbers are through the roof obviously. He also has 1 tackles per game and one interception. Same as Kagawa, only Kagawa played deeper in most of the games and he should have more impressive defensive stats. Anyway all my points from previous post remain. rooney created more, he put himself about more, dribbled more etc. And lost the ball more. For him
this success rate i calculated above is 40%, while Kagawa is at 20%. And that's just dribbling, Rooney created much more than Kagawa as well.

Kagawa has been good for us in terms of keeping the ball, the issue with him is how he loses it when he actually does lose it - which often looks extremely silly like passing right to an opponent. Kagawa's tackling/interceptions and miles covered are also great, so if you want to critique him please do so without bias.

Kagawa's defensive contribution is average at best (numbers above). The same as Rooney's only Rooney played in a more advanced role more times than Kagawa did.

His offensive game is where he has failed, defensively he has been one of our best wingers and certainly the best option for the LM role. Credit where it is due and all that.

Kagawa offers really little in terms of defence, so to say that he is our best defensive winger is sort of silly. Valencia for example has 1.7 tackles and 1.3 interception, yes he does play as a RB sometimes, but that's exactly because he is strong at can play in that role, although without much success really, as he allows runners in.

And then again, the sheer fact than Wayne Rooney who you've brought up, so no whining please, has the same number of tackles and interception and played many games as a CF clearly shows that Kagawa need to do much better to even be considered a good in defense. Never mind as you'd said, without any bias of course, "great".

 

[Annahnomoss]

Do you want him compared to wingers or not?

He has among the best defensive stats compared to our wide options, AM's and forwards. Valencia is the only one with slightly better stats in that regard.

 

[MoneyMay]

Januzaj is better than Kagawa both centrally and on the left. So is Mata and as is Rooney. If he's happy being a squad player then fair enough but imo he is another who looks like he needs a move.

Some of that is nonsense IMO. As talented as Januzaj is, he's still got to improve on a few elements to take him up a couple of levels as a #10. Though he played very little in that role - a small sample size, yes, but it's all we have - he didn't show much. His best game in that role was against Norwich (COC). I agree that he's better on the left, but that's because of different skill sets. Mata is a better #10, I agree, and I've stated that from the start. In some of his poor performances for us, he has created at least one good/great chance, and that's really what separates them. As for Rooney, he's not a #10 - it's as simple as that.

Next season will be Kagawa's biggest. He "suffered" from Moyes' poor man-management skills, as did many other of our players. In his first season, it was a period of transition, but you could say it was underwhelming. Next season, no one knows what system or formation we're going to play. It could be 4-4-2, 4-3-3, etc. but I can guarantee you that they'll be more movement and cohesiveness. He won't have an excuse under Van Gaal. He either develops or it's goodbye.

 

[Mad Winger]

The Kagawa critics are like vultures. If he's featured in a game and delivered anything less than an 8 out of 10 performance, then they will rush to this thread and write bullshit. It's ridiculous how Japan playing crap as a team suddenly is Kagawa's fault alone

 

[Firstouch20]

The Kagawa critics are like vultures. If he's featured in a game and delivered anything less than an 8 out of 10 performance, then they will rush to this thread and write bullshit. It's ridiculous how Japan playing crap as a team suddenly is Kagawa's fault alone

What was the reaction like in Japan after Kagawa was dropped? Was there shock around the country or was it something they expected or even hoped for?

 

[Lane]

The Kagawa critics are like vultures. If he's featured in a game and delivered anything less than an 8 out of 10 performance, then they will rush to this thread and write bullshit. It's ridiculous how Japan playing crap as a team suddenly is Kagawa's fault alone

I think it has something to do with some users who were agitating for Japan's national team, telling everyone here how great they were, how they are this fluid, attacking side, how Kagawa is a vital, integral part of their team, how he's gonna shine at WC and so on.

He has among the best defensive stats compared to our wide options, AM's and forwards. Valencia is the only one with slightly better stats in that regard.

Funny you forgot Rooney, who has exactly the same stats per match, only he played much more games, thus has much more interceptions and tackles and even played like third of his matches at CF position.
So much for unbiased opinion

 

[dirkey]

Some of that is nonsense IMO. As talented as Januzaj is, he's still got to improve on a few elements to take him up a couple of levels as a #10. Though he played very little in that role - a small sample size, yes, but it's all we have - he didn't show much. His best game in that role was against Norwich (COC). I agree that he's better on the left, but that's because of different skill sets. Mata is a better #10, I agree, and I've stated that from the start. In some of his poor performances for us, he has created at least one good/great chance, and that's really what separates them. As for Rooney, he's not a #10 - it's as simple as that.

Next season will be Kagawa's biggest. He "suffered" from Moyes' poor man-management skills, as did many other of our players. In his first season, it was a period of transition, but you could say it was underwhelming. Next season, no one knows what system or formation we're going to play. It could be 4-4-2, 4-3-3, etc. but I can guarantee you that they'll be more movement and cohesiveness. He won't have an excuse under Van Gaal. He either develops or it's goodbye.

you mention that Rooney is not a number 10,yet number 10 is kagawa main position and Rooney routinely out performs him there. It says a lot.

 

[dirkey]

The Kagawa critics are like vultures. If he's featured in a game and delivered anything less than an 8 out of 10 performance, then they will rush to this thread and write bullshit. It's ridiculous how Japan playing crap as a team suddenly is Kagawa's fault alone

Nothing to do with that, from what I've read. It's just the apologists have used for a long time how the dull United system was stopping this supposed world class talent who our team should be built around from shining. How he was brilliant in a fluid Japan side. And then, he's dropped. So I think people were kind of waiting to see what excuses would be made for him. He'll get his final shot now under Louis, but all this does is help the theory that he is indeed average. We'll see.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

I don't know if it's connected, but i heard he is extremely popular, like a cult figure, in Asia, and we do have a lot of fans there.
It was not good, but was not as bad as Kagawa's overall play i think. I mean somehow most of our attacking players were much better than Shinji.
But you are right, his final chance is with Louis, but it's the same for many players. The thing is United can't really sell them off the books effectively enough.

Time to whip out the video of United players being incredibly wasteful with great Kagawa passes. That one's always a quick shut up for posts like this

 

[limerickcitykid]

Kagawa is play-a-make

 

[Lane]

Time to whip out the video of United players being incredibly wasteful with great Kagawa passes. That one's always a quick shut up for posts like this

It might be best to watch his glorious one-on-one miss with Swansea. "Incredibly wasteful"? Yes. So mister "zero goals a season guy" can hardly blame partners for no converting some of chances created by him.

 

[Xaviesta]

I think it's in everybody's best interest for Kagawa to find a new club. Despite the fact I don't see what others see in him, I think you could get £15m for him thereabouts.

 

[AlwaysRedwood]

It might be best to watch his glorious one-on-one miss with Swansea. "Incredibly wasteful"? Yes. So mister "zero goals a season guy" can hardly blame partners for no converting some of chances created by him.

Yeah, keep on blathering nonsense.

 

[Verminator]

I think it's in everybody's best interest for Kagawa to find a new club. Despite the fact I don't see what others see in him, I think you could get £15m for him thereabouts.

Let's see what a decent manager does with him first. (Don't include his first season under SAF as reason to say he has had a chance of that)

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

I'm starting to think we should sell if we get a good offer in.

I know he's talented, there has been the odd moment here and there throughout his time at Utd where you could see he was good but he's just not shown it enough. It really is very similar to Veron. A lot of the time he seems to do nothing, and I know we were terrible last year and he wasn't often played in his best position but it's poor he went a whole season without a single goal. You'd expect a player of his supposed class to score at some point in 30 appearances.

Yeah though, he often seems to just drift through a game without doing anything, in the last few pages I've seen people try to defend Kagawa by saying when he came on for Japan he helped them look more "fluid" and helped their "vibe". That just sounds like a load of management speak.

 

[Wumminator]

The Kagawa critics are like vultures. If he's featured in a game and delivered anything less than an 8 out of 10 performance, then they will rush to this thread and write bullshit. It's ridiculous how Japan playing crap as a team suddenly is Kagawa's fault alone

Holy Moly I dared to suggest Kagawa wasn't good enough for us this season and after the Bayern Munich game @Empire went through all my quotes in the thread, quoted them all at once and laughed at me. I don't see many people laughing now.

 

[Striker10]

Kagawa playing for Japan with Japanese players is different to playing for United. I like Kagawa, but he has not proven himself. He's a nice player but mostly ineffectively because of our lack of mobility. He needs to be stronger and getting into double figures for goals and assists. When you have Rooney, Mata who are proven centrally then it will be hard for Kagawa. He can 'play' on the left but will he be effective in the premiership week after week? He's good technically but not quick and certainly he can be out muscled.

 

[itso 7]

I wouldn't mind keeping him, to give him a chance to show what he can do, but he is getting into his third season with us and he hasn't done enough to sadden me if he was offloaded. Yes he may have suffered from playing in a team that doesn't suit his style but then teams never change to suit one player unless he is ridiculously good like Ronaldo or Messi, the rest of players in the brackets below that have to fit in a system and it they that adjust not the other way round. I think for his career's sake he needs to move on and relaunch his career in a less frantic environment. It's tempting to wonder how he will be under LvG but the truth is Van Gaal is hardly going to isolate our most important player for over half a decade and our record signing, both who are way more productive than he is to fit him in. Besides fitting in Mata, Rooney and Van Persie is hard enough on it's own.

 

[LR7]

What none of us know is how LvG will set us up or what Kagawa's role under him could be. He has all the ability imo it's simply the confidence and mindset that he appears to be lacking to impose himself on big games. He has rarely played with that self-belief since he left Dortmund aside from a few games here and there for Japan. Even his hat trick game against Norwich wasn't one he particularly dominated. A fair few of our players have confidence issues atm (Kagawa, Cleverley, Nani...) and I just hope LvGs man management will enable him to get the best out of them.

 

[Nighteyes]

Some of that is nonsense IMO. As talented as Januzaj is, he's still got to improve on a few elements to take him up a couple of levels as a #10. Though he played very little in that role - a small sample size, yes, but it's all we have - he didn't show much. His best game in that role was against Norwich (COC). I agree that he's better on the left, but that's because of different skill sets. Mata is a better #10, I agree, and I've stated that from the start. In some of his poor performances for us, he has created at least one good/great chance, and that's really what separates them. As for Rooney, he's not a #10 - it's as simple as that.

Edit: As for Januzaj, he's of more use to us on the wings atm but if I had to pick between him and Kagawa to play through the middle it would be Januzaj.

Next season will be Kagawa's biggest. He "suffered" from Moyes' poor man-management skills, as did many other of our players. In his first season, it was a period of transition, but you could say it was underwhelming. Next season, no one knows what system or formation we're going to play. It could be 4-4-2, 4-3-3, etc. but I can guarantee you that they'll be more movement and cohesiveness. He won't have an excuse under Van Gaal. He either develops or it's goodbye.

It's not nonsense at all. If people want to shove their heads up Kagawa's arse then fair enough but don't expect everyone to do the same. Rooney and Mata are both better and quite comfortably at that. Just because Rooney isn't a 5 foot 5 techno-midget doesn't mean he's not a number 10 , that's the position he's played at United more often than not and done very well. So yeah, Rooney can play as number 10, he can play as a wide attacker and he does both of them hell of a lot better (and more productively) than Kagawa does.

Blame Moyes all you want (and he was shit, no doubt) but it still doesn't excuse some of his performances. He plays like someone who's scared. Pointless side ways passes (something Tom Cleverley is absolutely murdered for on this form) and refusing to take shots when he should. The more he fails to perform, the more you have to question whether his performances at Dortmund were the exception.

 

[Xaviesta]

It's not nonsense at all. If people want to shove their heads up Kagawa's arse then fair enough but don't expect everyone to do the same. Rooney and Mata are both better and quite comfortably at that. Just because Rooney isn't a 5 foot 5 techno-midget doesn't mean he's not a number 10 , that's the position he's played at United more often than not and done very well. So yeah, Rooney can play as number 10, he can play as a wide attacker and he does both of them hell of a lot better (and more productively) than Kagawa does.

Blame Moyes all you want (and he was shit, no doubt) but it still doesn't excuse some of his performances. He plays like someone who's scared. Pointless side ways passes (something Tom Cleverley is absolutely murdered for on this form) and refusing to take shots when he should. The more he fails to perform, the more you have to question whether his performances at Dortmund were the exception.

I think if he doesn't perform next season, the excuses will run out once and for all.

 

[Annahnomoss]

It's not nonsense at all. If people want to shove their heads up Kagawa's arse then fair enough but don't expect everyone to do the same. Rooney and Mata are both better and quite comfortably at that. Just because Rooney isn't a 5 foot 5 techno-midget doesn't mean he's not a number 10 , that's the position he's played at United more often than not and done very well. So yeah, Rooney can play as number 10, he can play as a wide attacker and he does both of them hell of a lot better (and more productively) than Kagawa does.

Blame Moyes all you want (and he was shit, no doubt) but it still doesn't excuse some of his performances. He plays like someone who's scared. Pointless side ways passes (something Tom Cleverley is absolutely murdered for on this form) and refusing to take shots when he should. The more he fails to perform, the more you have to question whether his performances at Dortmund were the exception.

I think this is where the disagreement starts. The people who rate Rooney to be one of the best number 10's in the world see no point of Kagawa, and never did as anything but as a left winger. The people who rate Rooney as a world-class striker but a terrible AM often consider Kagawa at the very least as a brilliant back-up for Mata for the AM spot.

For me it goes like this; Mata is the best AM in the team and the best player in the team with RVP when RVP is in form. RVP and Mata can both be played in their ideal positions and systems and will just benefit of each other in the team and produce results higher than if they were played alone.

So the question is who should play around them and Kagawa has proven that his understanding with Mata makes him the best option, Mata has also expressed his desire to play with Kagawa and praised him.

Then we have 3 out of the 4 offensive roles already self-picked and the last role needs to be someone who can provide width and dribbling which means Nani/Januzaj rather than Rooney. Personally I would hope Mata and Kagawa can learn to play the offensive CM roles together as Kagawa already plays his game further down in the field and just needs to learn the defensive positioning better. Carrick used Kagawa's one-gear defending all his career and was rated incredibly highly so it is certainly possible.

This way we would be able to have Rooney-Mata-Kagawa-RVP-Januzaj all on the pitch at the same time and suddenly we don't look like a team which needs 6 transfers in to have a chance at top four.

 

[Empire]

Holy Moly I dared to suggest Kagawa wasn't good enough for us this season and after the Bayern Munich game @Empire went through all my quotes in the thread, quoted them all at once and laughed at me. I don't see many people laughing now.

Thanks for reminding us!

I remember, you didn't reply to that post did you. You talked of how Kagawa was an absolutely awful player and then he had that excellent spell when Moyes played him consistently where everybody was talking about how good he was. After one game in the world cup for Japan they've forgotten the glimpses he showed especially when he was linking up with Mata.

We should wait and see how he does in Louis van Gaal's system, thanks for reminding everybody Twiggy.

Let us take a trip down memory lane and see what your opinions were:

I just don't see it with him anytime he puts on a United shirt at all

I don't see how he's earned a starting spot (or a space on our best bench if everyone is fit)

Yeah pretty much. He's fluffed his lines when he's gotten to the important parts of the pitch too many times.

Cleverley can start in a midfield 2 as he's capable of winning the ball back and tracking his runners. Kagawa doesn't offer much defensively.

It happened today for his second touch. He miscontrolled it a bit and a player come charging through him and just won the ball. Happens way too often

Well they've all had better seasons than him. (Apart from Nani) Considering Rooney/Jones covers CM and Young, Nani cover the wings what position are we keeping Kagawa free for?

And Young has won us games this year. Kagawa hasn't.

Ashley Young has been much better than him this year.

Young is limited but can certainly give us a goal threat with his balls. There's been four or five games this year where Ashley Young has dramatically effected the game in our favour.

I know it's "in" to love the Bundesliga, but we can all see that the standard in that league is nowhere near the Prem right?

The Premier League is the best in the world. It's competitive all the way through.

Bundesliga teams aren't exactly setting the world alight at the moment. I think it's safe to say the quality of the league over there is lower.

But I think it comes down to a simple fact with Kagawa. If you're shite and ineffective most times you play for my club, I'll generally think you're not good enough.

So 'anytime' he has put on a United shirt, you are yet to be impressed. High standards? Even his haters admit he has had a good game here and there but not you.

You don't think he is worthy of sitting on the United bench...

You're content with Cleverley starting in a midfield two still!

Rooney and Jones in CM and Nani and Young on the wings means no place for Kagawa!!

Nice to see you think Ashley Young has been much better than him this year

Ashely Young has been a game changer four or five times this season, how about those times he has lost the ball and we conceded?

Playing for Dortmund in Bundesliga and stopping Munich from winning the title twice, even smashing them in the cup is still levels below the premier league, right?

On the last point, I take it you think just about every player for the club wasn't good enough! Well other than Ashley Young of course...

 

[Nighteyes]

I think this is where the disagreement starts. The people who rate Rooney to be one of the best number 10's in the world see no point of Kagawa, and never did as anything but as a left winger. The people who rate Rooney as a world-class striker but a terrible AM often consider Kagawa at the very least as a brilliant back-up for Mata for the AM spot.

For me it goes like this; Mata is the best AM in the team and the best player in the team with RVP when RVP is in form. RVP and Mata can both be played in their ideal positions and systems and will just benefit of each other in the team and produce results higher than if they were played alone.

So the question is who should play around them and Kagawa has proven that his understanding with Mata makes him the best option, Mata has also expressed his desire to play with Kagawa and praised him.

Then we have 3 out of the 4 offensive roles already self-picked and the last role needs to be someone who can provide width and dribbling which means Nani/Januzaj rather than Rooney. Personally I would hope Mata and Kagawa can learn to play the offensive CM roles together as Kagawa already plays his game further down in the field and just needs to learn the defensive positioning better. Carrick used Kagawa's one-gear defending all his career and was rated incredibly highly so it is certainly possible.

This way we would be able to have Rooney-Mata-Kagawa-RVP-Januzaj all on the pitch at the same time and suddenly we don't look like a team which needs 6 transfers in to have a chance at top four.

Yeah, most of this post is a big load of crap. No matter how you rate Rooney, he's still done a hell of a lot better than Kagawa as the AM and played some of his best football there. You've got to be willfully blind to say otherwise. Mata has also praised Rooney for that matter but I doubt Van Gaal gives 2 shits as to what any of the players think.

The only question is whether Kagawa can finally start producing enough to topple one of Januzaj, Rooney or Mata from their positions and that's not even mentioning Nani who at his best was also better than Kagawa. And I very much doubt Kagwa is going to play as a CM. Mata AND Kagawa in CM is a no and won't happen.

And wtf is one-gear defending?