Backlash after WC rape jokes flood Twitter

Snow said:
Are you talking about the US and the UK? That's the only places I can think off. The US still jokes about everything. I only need to give South Park as an example and their show spans 17 seasons and is about as funny as it gets. They're only limited by their broadcaster which basically means don't swear, a lot. Only a bit.

A society that rejects someone because of a joke needs to get its head checked. It's fine to be disappointed at people who make a joke that's not funny. A lot of people are not funny at all and when they turn to subjects like rape it gets plain awkward and looks bad but that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it.

The only reason you don't joke about something is out of respect towards other people who don't appreciate it and have asked not to do it. That's called courtesy. Most people possess it. Some lose it from time to time but that doesn't mean they are bad people.
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I agree with the gist of yer post. But the thing is that using rape as a metaphor for defeating someone isn't much of a joke. In most instances it's not intended as a joke either. I've always been of the opinion that nothing is off limits in comedy - the latter is indeed about freedom of expression and if political correctness were to get in the way of artistic expression (such as South Park, which is generally quite brilliant, not least when they're making perfectly brutal jokes about themes many no doubt find inappropriate) I'd call that appalling.

But this isn't about comedy. It's not inventive - it's not provocative in a good or interesting way. It's a lazy use of language - a crude buzz term, if you will.
 
Hectic said:
Followed by the worst response ever to a serious post:
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The argument was becoming a bit circular, so I made a joke and walked away. Sorry you didn't like my joke. Earlier I responded to someone else's comment because it was made with sincerity and it was incredibly offensive. Theres a huge difference, so don't paint it so black and white.
 
Raoul said:
Obviously race, gender, and sexual orientation have become off limits. The metaphorical use of rape is basically a way of women saying they don't appreciate it.
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No it hasn't. Maybe if you're talking to the press or other kind of political or official business but it's far from off limits. I watch American TV shows and listen to American podcasts (the most popular in the world to boot) and I hear and see it all the time. As long as you don't have to uphold a certain image set by your bosses, you can joke about whatever. Most people have the common sense to draw the line somewhere and/or know the time and the place to do so.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
I agree with the gist of yer post. But the thing is that using rape as a metaphor for defeating someone isn't much of a joke. In most instances it's not intended as a joke either. I've always been of the opinion that nothing is off limits in comedy - the latter is indeed about freedom of expression and if political correctness were to get in the way of artistic expression (such as South Park, which is generally quite brilliant, not least when they're making perfectly brutal jokes about themes many no doubt find inappropriate) I'd call that appalling.

But this isn't about comedy. It's not inventive - it's not provocative in a good or interesting way. It's a lazy use of language - a crude buzz term, if you will.
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It definitely is this but you could still have made a good joke about the same thing using different words. Personally I wouldn't use the word rape or it's likeness in this case either.
 
Snow said:
No it hasn't. Maybe if you're talking to the press or other kind of political or official business but it's far from off limits. I watch American TV shows and listen to American podcasts (the most popular in the world to boot) and I hear and see it all the time. As long as you don't have to uphold a certain image set by your bosses, you can joke about whatever. Most people have the common sense to draw the line somewhere and/or know the time and the place to do so.
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I live in the States and don't see it being used anywhere except among juveniles and young males who seem to believe they the right to wield it for effect to describe sporting events. More broadly, why argue in favor of using it when its offensive to a growing number of people ?
 
Spoony said:
South Park is satire though. It's not offensive for the sake of it, like er...Chubby Brown and his ilk.
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Most people aren't funny but that doesn't mean they don't have the right to say the same things. It's our responsibility to let them know that they aren't funny.
 
Raoul said:
I live in the States and don't see it being used anywhere except among juveniles and young males who seem to believe they the right to wield it for effect to describe sporting events. More broadly, why argue in favor of using it when its offensive to a growing number of people ?
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Because people can say whatever they want. If they offend people, so be it. That's the chance they take for desperately wanting to be retweeted.



edit: @2:00 specifically
 
The other use of the word rape isn't that archaic. I've still seen it in a few history books and articles, for example.

I don't necessarily have a problem with the word rape being used for shock value either. It does carry a lot of weight after all so in the right context it can be effective use of language rather than simply a lazy buzzword. A lot of writers/poets deliberately use that sort of provocative language for effect and are right to do so. Shock value isn't always worthless. Not that this defense really stretches to what this thread is about but simply saying the word should never be used in this way is nonsense.

Generally when I hear the word rape being used in a casual context though it's for knowing overemphasis rather than shock value. Irony and stuff.
 
Snow said:
Because people can say whatever they want. If they offend people, so be it. That's the chance they take for desperately wanting to be retweeted.



edit: @2:00 specifically
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Well there you go...a comedian. Try using it in a professional environment among a 50 percent or more women audience and see what sort of reaction you get.
 
Raoul said:
Well there you go...a comedian. Try using it in a professional environment among a 50 percent or more women audience and see what sort of reaction you get.
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Doesn't matter that he's a comedian. Listen to what he's actually saying. Not who he is. He explains it perfectly. Of course it takes finesse to pull that kind of joke off, I've already said that. You don't have to be a comedian though to pull it off. It's not that hard. You just don't have to be stupid about it. But stupid people are stupid and do and say stupid things and that's their right so long as they are on the internet or in the very countries that you claim don't accept it.
 
sullydnl said:
The other use of the word rape isn't that archaic. I've still seen it in a few history books and articles, for example.

I don't necessarily have a problem with the word rape being used for shock value either. It does carry a lot of weight after all so in the right context it can be effective use of language rather than simply a lazy buzzword. A lot of writers/poets deliberately use that sort of provocative language for effect and are right to do so. Shock value isn't always worthless. Not that this defense really stretches to what this thread is about but simply saying the word should never be used in this way is nonsense.

Generally when I hear the word rape being used in a casual context though it's for knowing overemphasis rather than shock value. Irony and stuff.
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I was being taught about 'the rape of Prague' in school about five years ago.
 
Snow said:
Doesn't matter that he's a comedian. Listen to what he's actually saying. Not who he is. He explains it perfectly. Of course it takes finesse to pull that kind of joke off, I've already said that. You don't have to be a comedian though to pull it off. It's not that hard. You just don't have to be stupid about it. But stupid people are stupid and do and say stupid things and that's their right so long as they are on the internet or in the very countries that you claim don't accept it.
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His logic is limited though. If Gervais did a stand up routine with the flagrant use of the N-Word, he wouldn't fare very well. There are limits in every society, and rape is another term that society is doing away with, much like many racist terms that no sensible person would argue are legitimate in everyday conversation, just as some are arguing rape should be.
 
Raoul said:
His logic is limited though. If Gervais did a stand up routine with the flagrant use of the N-Word, he wouldn't fare very well. There are limits in every society, and rape is another term that society is doing away with, much like many racist terms that no sensible person would argue are legitimate in everyday conversation, just as some are arguing rape should be.
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He would do that routine if he thought it would be funny. There are plenty of funny stand-ups where there's a flagrant use of that word. Even a funny animated show.

Doing away with words is a slippery slope. Plain and simple. There are societies out there that do that, there are societies in the past that have done it as well. America was partly founded on getting away from that kind of society. But you want to live in one? Why on Earth would you? It's not like rape jokes are a problem. They aren't common. In fact, they are very rare. Doesn't mean they should be banned.
 
If you were at my house, got bladdered, and pissed in my hydrangea pot, would your response to my telling you off be 'I'm sorry, won't happen again' or a silly sweaty-fedora smelling lecture about how uric acid is actually beneficial for hydrangeas, and it wasn't like you burned all hydrangeas in the world to the roots, and I need to man up?

It's not hard, gents.
 
Snow said:
He would do that routine if he thought it would be funny. There are plenty of funny stand-ups where there's a flagrant use of that word. Even a funny animated show.

Doing away with words is a slippery slope. Plain and simple. There are societies out there that do that, there are societies in the past that have done it as well. America was partly founded on getting away from that kind of society. But you want to live in one? Why on Earth would you? It's not like rape jokes are a problem. They aren't common. In fact, they are very rare. Doesn't mean they should be banned.
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I prefer looking at it as a way in which an advanced society self-regulates its own rules and norms. If people in a society where women are actually the slightly majority are not cool with using rape as a metaphor then great. Race, gender, sexual orientation are areas where prominent subgroups in society have dealt with discrimination over time, and as such, are sensitive to certain terminology. We should respect that rather than digging ourselves in a hole by arguing that the casual use of rape is ok.
 
Raoul said:
I prefer looking at it as a way in which an advanced society self-regulates its own rules and norms. If people in a society where women are actually the slightly majority are not cool with using rape as a metaphor then great. Race, gender, sexual orientation are areas where prominent subgroups in society have dealt with discrimination and are sensitive to certain terminology. We should respect that rather than digging ourselves in a hole by arguing the casual use of rape is ok.
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Who is saying that rape is ok? Rape is so not ok. And you only talk about it as a female thing. Reports and studies show that males don't report if they get raped because of the male social stigma. Only last year there was a piece about this after a woman made a study about rape here in the country. One man bravely stepped forward and shortly many others followed. Suddenly there were more rape cases in one year where there was a male victim, and the offender a woman, than there had ever been reported.

Only child molestation is more universally loathed than rape. But like I said before and like Ricky said in the video as well, the best way to deal with awful news or experiences is humor.
 
Snow said:
Who is saying that rape is ok? Rape is so not ok. And you only talk about it as a female thing. Reports and studies show that males don't report if they get raped because of the male social stigma. Only last year there was a piece about this after a woman made a study about rape here in the country. One man bravely stepped forward and shortly many others followed. Suddenly there were more rape cases in one year where there was a male victim, and the offender a woman, than there had ever been reported.

Only child molestation is more universally loathed than rape. But like I said before and like Ricky said in the video as well, the best way to deal with awful news or experiences is humor.
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I'm not talking about rape itself; but its use as a word in contemporary language (predominantly among young males, who are the demographic that are probably the most desensitized to what rape actually is). I'm sure loads of males get raped as well, and that its underreported for a variety of reasons. All the more reason to stop using the term to describe football matches imo. Its serious business to those who are affected by it.
 
Snow said:
He would do that routine if he thought it would be funny. There are plenty of funny stand-ups where there's a flagrant use of that word. Even a funny animated show.

Doing away with words is a slippery slope. Plain and simple. There are societies out there that do that, there are societies in the past that have done it as well. America was partly founded on getting away from that kind of society. But you want to live in one? Why on Earth would you? It's not like rape jokes are a problem. They aren't common. In fact, they are very rare. Doesn't mean they should be banned.
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I don't believe in banning words either. But there's a counter argument to be made here. The very reason why using certain words to an effect in an artistic context is possible (and sometimes very effective and genuinely funny) is that they're charged and that people are offended by them in an everyday context.

The rape analogy, as used by sports fans, has nothing to do with comedy in my opinion. And reacting to this, pointing out that it simply isn't on to use that kind of language, has nothing to do with restricting people's right to express themselves. If we turn a deaf ear to anything which is spouted on the Internet, rather than calling people out on certain matters, there won't be any explosive potential left in any word which a comedian might plausibly use effectively in his art.

Insisting on the importance of context, or limits, or social mores and rules isn't detrimental to artistic freedom - it never has been.
 
moses said:
Yep, the court sentances suggest as much to me.
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Depending on jurisdiction, people tend to think that about an enormous number of crimes.

I don't find them disproportionate to sentences in other heinous crimes, gathering from my obvious limited exposure to local news.
 
The context depends everything.

To say rape as a topic for humour should never be acceptable, in ANY context, is flawed and draconian.

The legitimacy of the offence depends on the context and the intent. Everyone is potentially offended by something. Censoring accordingly isn't nice, it's authoritarian.
 
Dwazza Van Hernandez said:
Not sure I'm following...I was referring to the list that Justy posted where it indicated the archaic definiton of rape as being to carry off by force etc, where as the current or at least common definition is primarily concerened with sexual assault.

And, no I don't think anoyone would be offended by the use of decimated to refer to the result. In fact, I think people prefer to use words like rape, murder for their shock value, which is positively low brow. I'd be more impressed that they demonstrated an extensive vocabulary.
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Ok, I guess one could call the other definitions archaic, as it is only very seldomly used in a different context. (Both merriam-webster.com and oxforddictionaries.com still have it down as a valid and current definition however).

The process of decimation isn't any less cruel than rape though, is it? So why's one offending, and the other isn't?

(I want to clear something up though: I'm not saying I appreciate the word rape in the context of a sporting event. It is as Dwazza has pointed out, a lazy choice, even if it were fitting, which it's not. However I won't judge anybody who does so, and think those offended by it are wasting their energy on a issue as petit as this.)

moses said:
Yep, the court sentances suggest as much to me.
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I understand this point of view. I'm no legal expert, and have very little knowledge of the British justice system. If the sentences for rape are too lenient I absolutely agree (I honestly thought they weren't, but that was just my assumption, not knowledge), that is a indication of society not taking it serious enough.
 
Raoul said:
In the early days of the CAF it wasn't uncommon for people to use racist and offensive terms, I suppose society has evolved a bit.
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Not sure creating an ever expanding library of banned words, phrases, expressions and ideas is the highroad to the moral evolution of mankind. More like the road to totalitarianism. A Big Brother society where we will be constantly monitored by our sociopolitical masters to ensure that no thought or idea of which they disapprove will ever cross our minds or our lips.
 
Raoul said:
His logic is limited though. If Gervais did a stand up routine with the flagrant use of the N-Word, he wouldn't fare very well..
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Lenny Bruce, Louis CK & Doug Stanhope have all done this.

And they were funny too.
 
Will Absolute said:
Not sure creating an ever expanding library of banned words, phrases, expressions and ideas is the highroad to the moral evolution of mankind. More like the road to totalitarianism. A Big Brother society where we will be constantly monitored by our sociopolitical masters to ensure that no thought or idea of which they disapprove will ever cross our minds or our lips.
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I'm not a fan of banning language either, but I can see why many are offended by certain terms, especially women and "minorities" who have had certain words used against them in the past.
 
The amount of strawmen in here is setting off my hay fever, but yes, if it's that bleeding important to you lot using 'rape' as a metaphor, go right ahead.

Just don't insult those who kindly told you it bothered them in the process, please.

Draconian! :lol:
My arse.
 
adexkola said:
I'm sorry to hear that. Did she talk to a professional afterwards? The psychological issues caused by violation of one's body are too severe to be dealt with alone.
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Christ yep, every possible one.

Arruda said:
Depending on jurisdiction, people tend to think that about an enormous number of crimes.

I don't find them disproportionate to sentences in other heinous crimes, gathering from my obvious limited exposure to local news.
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I'm no expert, just one of the many many flaws in the Irish judicial system.
 
Spoony said:
Why?
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Just for entertainment purposes. People who get offended by jokes about things tend to be pretty stupid, and it's kind of funny to toy with their emotions, like when you pretend to throw a ball for a dog and it gets really sad until it realises the ball's actually in your hand. I get a kick out of that.
 
Waltraute said:
The amount of strawmen in here is setting off my hay fever, but yes, if it's that bleeding important to you lot using 'rape' as a metaphor, go right ahead.

Just don't insult those who kindly told you it bothered them in the process, please.

Draconian! :lol:
My arse.
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I used the word draconian, and I didn't insult you. Did I?
 
Silent_Running said:
Just for entertainment purposes. People who get offended by jokes about things tend to be pretty stupid, and it's kind of funny to toy with their emotions, like when you pretend to throw a ball for a dog and it gets really sad until it realises the ball's actually in your hand. I get a kick out of that.
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Yeah, bring back the Paddy and Paki jokes.
 
Waltraute said:
The amount of strawmen in here is setting off my hay fever.
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Im allergic to straw aswell, yet you come in here and call me strawmen.

I'm offended.

Also calling other people strawman, and therefore rendering their arguments invalid by default, is quite narrow minded in itself, don't you think?
Surely if we're going around banning words, we can atleast have a talk about it?
 
moses said:
Yeah, bring back the Paddy and Paki jokes.
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I think people should be able to make those jokes, although they obviously aren't funny whatsoever. Of course actual racism is possibly the most abhorrent thing ever.
 
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