[Godfather]

I'd argue we were more dominant overall, and early 2nd half we played very well - towards the end after they scored again we did show signs of Moyesism
They beat us on the counter and we made a few stupid mistakes that cost us - these things will improve when we get used to the system, and hopefully with better, new players coming in.

Being dominant in possession means feck all though. We were slow on the ball. Zombie passing was back.
Much like last year.
Hoof balls, endless long balls down the flanks when there was no one in support, shit crosses it was all back again.
No creativity, no pace, no end product, no change.

 

[Ash_G]

What the Valencia and Swansea games have shown us in my opinion, is that we still struggle to break down defenses when the opponent puts bodies behind the ball. Mata and the 3-5-2 were meant to solve this, but Mata was rubbish and we changed formation at half time.

You can blame a lot of things on the defense, but I don't think breaking down stubborn opponents is one of them.

I think it all has a knock on effect, if your defence won't push forward/don't pass it well enough it's going to impact the whole team. If you're whole team then has to play deeper when someone like Mata gets on the ball he's already got a problem becuase he's deeper than he wants to be put it's also going to take longer for other runers to get beyond him to open it up. He had a poor game but it's not helped by the team having to player deeper than it should.

Then when we went 4411 it's the same problem as we've had for years which is again a lack of runners from wide. For some reason we moved januzaj to the left which meant that any movement he might have had running from the right inside on to his left is off which means one less run for Swansea to think about and Mata to try and find. Nani stuck wide or ran from deep and then went wide. We don't have enough players running from multiple angles and without that no one creates space for anyone else nor for someone like mata to then use his range.

 

[Godfather]

Fletcher was our only decent midfielder. Mata was disappointing.

In a preserve way, we needed this result. Now let see what our new manager says.

Fletcher couldnt pass the ball 5 yards anymore towards the end. He is out of pace.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Being dominant in possession means feck all though. We were slow on the ball. Zombie passing was back.
Much like last year.
Hoof balls, endless long balls down the flanks when there was no one in support, shit crosses it was all back again.
No creativity, no pace, no end product, no change.

To me that is the players not the manager, some of them were reverting to type. That isn't his style of play.

 

[Sheldon69]

Another dog shit performance at home .
Whats happened to us again FFS .
Every time any body gets into our box they look like scoring .
We need an urgent injection of pace and a top notch centre half who can organise at the back . Its the first game of the season for gods sake and we were terrible . Only rooney and adnan , jones second half and Herrera in flashes played anything like .
Too slow , too predictable and easy to play against .
We need to spend and spend big .
2 defenders , cm and wide man urgently or we can forget top 4 . We needed to put down a marker today to stop teams coming to old traff and taking the piss but what ive seen today im afraid we are generally poor in a lot of key positions .
Hernandez , fletcher , young , fellaini and nani are not good enough . They need to be replaced now before we go on another moyes roll .

 

[PedroMendez]

To me that is the players not the manager, some of them were reverting to type. That isn't his style of play.

well.....van gaal invented zombie passing at bayern munich.....

 

[Walrus]

I think it all has a knock on effect, if your defence won't push forward/don't pass it well enough it's going to impact the whole team. If you're whole team then has to play deeper when someone like Mata gets on the ball he's already got a problem becuase he's deeper than he wants to be put it's also going to take longer for other runers to get beyond him to open it up. He had a poor game but it's not helped by the team having to player deeper than it should.

Then when we went 4411 it's the same problem as we've had for years which is again a lack of runners from wide. For some reason we moved januzaj to the left which meant that any movement he might have had running from the right inside on to his left is off which means one less run for Swansea to think about and Mata to try and find. Nani stuck wide or ran from deep and then went wide. We don't have enough players running from multiple angles and without that no one creates space for anyone else nor for someone like mata to then use his range.

I agree with much of that. However it seems very convenient to blame Matas performance on simply the players around him. LVG is a pretty astute tactician and he has obviously used this system to try to get the best out of Mata. I don't think Mata can really have any excuses if he fails to perform in it.

 

[Feed Me]

What a waste! Who would condone spending such money on Mata?
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/mat...t-a-mata-of-time.372687/page-58#post-14897117

I've changed my mind.

It's indisputable that other parts of the team are in a state of disrepair and in urgent need of improvement. Mata looks like a luxury purchase more and more with each passing week - it's like buying a chandelier for a ceiling that's caved in.

 

[PSingh]

Of course we need players. The squad is full of holes. Why Anderson is still taking up space is anyone's guess and the midfield is still lightweight. Buying upgrades on some of our players wouldn't be that hard. As for doom and gloom, how often do we hear that Manchester United is a global giant, up there with Bayern, Real, and Barca. Yet, unlike them, we buy our players, with the odd exception, in football's equivalent of a charity shop. The level of underinvestment has been shocking. These fecking parasites have been sucking hundreds of millions of pounds out of this club and investing little. Van Gaal cannot make bricks without straw and it will take a spending spree of epic proportions to get this team right again.

Agreed, it highlights the work Sir Alex did with this squad. But I'm confident van Gaal knows who he wants and who he wants to get rid of, time for woody to step up and do his job.

 

[Hamadovich86]

"We are not reaching our level," van Gaal told MUTV. "That's the main thing. Because of that, we didn't play as a team. Nevertheless, we had chances to win this game. We gave a lot of space away in the second half. We played with more pressing. They scored one goal out of two chances in the second half.

"It's more than disappointing for the fans. They are expecting a lot because we have won every game in pre-season. Then you lose the first match. That's disappointing for the fans, also for the players and also for me. It's a very bad day for us.

"We make steps and you have to learn from your steps. We are not the champions. Swansea are not champions because they have beaten us. At the end of the season, we will know who is champion and who has learned from the steps we've made."

It was not because of the other system," he asserted. "It was a corner kick. But it was a wonderful goal and at that moment I thought we should win. When you don't score out of the chances - we had more than Swansea - you can lose and we did lose.

"That I have said at half-time [some players looked nervous]. I can imagine. The expectation is high, not just for the coach but the players as well. You're playing for Manchester United. That, we'll discuss."

http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...35536639-6F01-4F4B-82B3-0382DC2A2BA6&pageNo=2

 

[amolbhatia50k]

The annoying thing is this will drive the transfer muppetism into an absolute frenzy...but it's not the lack of buying players that's the problem. I mean letting our squad stagnate is a part of the problem, but that explains dropping away from being champions/title contenders. It doesn't explain losing routinely at home to teams like Swansea without even creating a single decent chance in the entire game. Teams with far worse players than us show more character than that.

We paid £42m for Mata for example, and he spent the whole game playing like a powder puff version of Scott Parker. We paid £30m for Rooney and he spent the whole game playing panicked sideways passes to Swansea players despite the fact there was almost never a Swansea player within 5 yards of him...sorry but if you're a £30m player and the other team gives you that much time on the ball, that should basically be an automatic 3 points in itself. Our supposed better players don't look like good players trapped in a poor team, if anything they look like the problem. Whenever there is a bright spark it comes from a youngster or someone who's been sitting on the fringes for a while.

There's no point spending big money on supposedly world class players if we can't even get the ones we do have to do basic things correctly.

On the game itself...I don't see the point in ever starting Hernandez anymore. He's lost his ability to stretch opposition teams. We made a mistake getting him to bulk up a bit, because all that's happened is he's just as crap at holding on to the ball but has lost his ability to burst away from defenders. He's a completely pointless player now. Janujaz would have done a better job in his role.

Also not sure why we took Herrera off and not Fletcher. Only one of the two of them was passing the ball effectively and it certainly wasn't Fletcher. Didn't get the point in punting the ball up to Fellaini if we weren't even going to give other players time to get up and support him either. Just the usual go a goal down and descend into a mix of cowardness and brainless stupidity.

We must also be the only team on the planet who start playing the ball SLOWER as soon as the pre season ends. Seriously, in the time we take faffing around before playing the ball 10 yards forwards, a wounded snail could complete the London Marathon. Again, this isn't a lack of signings thing. There are Championship sides who don't have this issue. I bet even Blackpool dont have this issue.

All of that can only be sorted through quality coaching. That's why we've got van gaal. To reteach these buggers how to play football.

 

[RoadTrip]

What a waste! Who would condone spending such money on Mata?
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/mat...t-a-mata-of-time.372687/page-58#post-14897117

 

[Godfather]

To me that is the players not the manager, some of them were reverting to type. That isn't his style of play.

I agree.

 

[Dylan94]

I'm not saying everyone should go. But City and Chelsea have almost 2 world Class starting 11's in their squad. We don't even have one. Players like Mata and Herrera and Rooney are good. But we need players who are better than them or if not then at least as good. This is Manchester United for goodness sake. We're supposed to be in that elite band of global footballing superpowers. And right now we look more like a mediocre mid table team. We need almost bar the goalkeeper, a brand new starting 11. Players like Herrera, Mata, Carrick, Welbeck etc are good enough to be here, but they should make up our 2nd, quality starting 11 and a strong bench rather than our first team.

 

[BennyBlanco]

I thought Swansea countered us perfectly, they played really well, that said... I thought our midfield were useless, both Fletcher and Herrera were pinbacked the entire game, so were the wingbacks, Mata for 37mill and such high universal praise was completely invisible, our forwards were cut off from the game completely,

Slow uselss passing was back, fletcher was perhaps the worst of taking his time on the ball instead of releasing it quick,
the fact we had to change back to 4 at the back so soon was just laughable.

Desperately needa midfielder comfortable on the ball at all costs, someone absolutely dominant in that spot ala scholes 06-09 that can pin back the other team instead of us being shunted backwards, also would rather see januzaj play as the no.10 over Mata sometimes, think he'll be the better player in a year or two.

/rant off

 

[dev1l]

I haven't read every single post, but I'm interested to know if you are bashing other people's opinions what is the reaction of a "proper" fan to such an extreme anti-climax?

I am totally gutted watching that, because I had high expectations and spent the match slightly numb but still had hopes until the final whistle, which were dashed. Next match can't come soon enough.

it s the first game of the season under a new manager...no need to over react like that. Anti-climax to what? The previous games were friendlies ...
it s a new manager, new system...it ll take time. If you re not ready to wait, there are plenty of plastic team options around...

 

[Ash_G]

I agree with much of that. However it seems very convenient to blame Matas performance on simply the players around him. LVG is a pretty astute tactician and he has obviously used this system to try to get the best out of Mata. I don't think Mata can really have any excuses if he fails to perform in it.

Sure and I think he went with this system to suit Rooney too but he struggled particularly with many simple passes for a player of his quality. Everyone was poor and I'm not saying Mata was any different. I think though that first half having the midfield/mata have to come deep caused issues and second half as with previous years a lack of the midfielders either choosing or instructed not to run in to the box reduces the passing options.

 

[RoadTrip]

Anyone have a link to LVG post match?

 

[Ferguson]

He's got his work cut out for him.

Preseason is officially over

 

[Wizard Keyaz]

We clearly don't have a commanding defence, felt like amateurs at times in todays game

 

[noodlehair]

All of that can only be sorted through quality coaching. That's why we've got van gaal. To reteach these buggers how to play football.

Some of it is coaching. Some of it is down to us gradually assembling a squad of complete fannies. Barring Januzaj, there's not one player in there who I'd put money on to show any character when their back is against the wall.

Literally every single one of the rest of them either starts panicking or dragging their feet.

 

[Moriarty]

Agreed, it highlights the work Sir Alex did with this squad. But I'm confident van Gaal knows who he wants and who he wants to get rid of, time for woody to step up and do his job.

I'm sick of hearing about that fecking garden gnome. I wish he'd just feck off back to JP Morgan where he came from and the club can then hire a football man who can get things done without shouting his mouth off with inane platitudes on MUTV.

 

[villain]

Brand new starting 11?
Bloody heck.

 

[Barney]

The mood on MUTV is telling, everyone putting pressure on the club to spend.

They are aware that you have already spent £60m, right?


This place really is overly dramatic.

 

[SammyUnited_83]

For all this talk about fecking philosophy's and systems we just looked like a team who didn't have a clue today. I'm not sure that defence is the major issue, our midfield is dreadful and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't get anywhere near chelsea, arsenal or city.

 

[limerickcitykid]

What a waste! Who would condone spending such money on Mata?
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/mat...t-a-mata-of-time.372687/page-58#post-14897117

 

[bosnian_red]

They are aware that you have already spent £60m, right?


This place really is overly dramatic.

One was a deal that should have been done a year ago but they fecked about, and the other one was in the wraps for a while too. After talk of no budget, 150m and other shit like Woodward saying we can comfortably break the transfer record, it's just not acceptable for us to go into the new season without replacing any of the center backs.

 

[Walrus]

Sure and I think he went with this system to suit Rooney too but he struggled particularly with many simple passes for a player of his quality. Everyone was poor and I'm not saying Mata was any different. I think though that first half having the midfield/mata have to come deep caused issues and second half as with previous years a lack of the midfielders either choosing or instructed not to run in to the box reduces the passing options.

In theory in a 3-5-2, the WBs should be breaking forward as soon as we have the ball, meaning Mata should have 2 strikers and 2 WBs to play with, and those 5 should be our attacking quintet, with occasional support from the CMs.

Who is to blame? I'm not sure, but the strikers didn't seem to do much. Januzaj was our best player I thought, and Young did OK as well.

 

[Señor]

I don't think this has been stated enough. Swansea were shite. We were just more shite. As was the case for the majority of teams coming over to Old Trafford last season and leaving with three points.

 

[Feed Me]

They are aware that you have already spent £60m, right?


This place really is overly dramatic.

The squad is threadbare and lacking quality. We played Ashley Young at left back and Jones ended up at right back.

Serious investment is needed. Hererra and Shaw are not enough.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

They are aware that you have already spent £60m, right?


This place really is overly dramatic.

We need to spend more though Barney. This team has been neglected for years. Now we need to spend the money all in one go.

 

[Godfather]

They are aware that you have already spent £60m, right?


This place really is overly dramatic.

Who fecking cares about how much we spend. We need the right players. If we are dumb enough to spend 30 million on a youngster then so be it. Shouldnt be an excuse for us not siging the needed reinforcements though.

 

[dave2528]

..."That I have said at half-time [some players looked nervous]. I can imagine. The expectation is high, not just for the coach but the players as well. You're playing for Manchester United. That, we'll discuss."

http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...35536639-6F01-4F4B-82B3-0382DC2A2BA6&pageNo=2

As he rightly should. It isn't an isolated event when it comes to this nervousness, or as I'm going to call it, gutlessness. There are several members of the squad who, time and again, display a complete lack of self-belief and courage on match day. Their time has come to stand up, to be accountable, and to produce when it matters. Either that or get their marching orders.

 

[SammyUnited_83]

Teams piss

They are aware that you have already spent £60m, right?


This place really is overly dramatic.

Teams piss £60 mil on one player. The players we have bought added to the squad but aren't stand out world class starters - which we drastically lack.

Not dramatic, just realistic.

 

[Santos J]

What a waste! Who would condone spending such money on Mata?
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/mat...t-a-mata-of-time.372687/page-58#post-14897117

 

[Gannicus]

So you wouldnt say Fletcher was poor and Mata was only "meh"? Young was okay? That really says it all and ends any further discussions with you about anything related to football.

So, we're going to parse words to their most precise meaning, are we?

Let me be even clearer than I have been already.

We need a massive upgrade at defensive mid. Fletcher is a worthy squad man but we cannot rely on him for 38 matches if we hope to make top four. He does have the tools any longer to control the transition tempo from defense to offense. I'm sorry if that offends you.

I've never been a fan of Young and felt it was money wasted when we bought him (he's on 120k/week, I believe), but he put in a decent shift today. But please don't go into meltdown mode when you read the word "decent". By no means am I suggesting he was outstanding. There's a big difference between the words "poor", "okay" and "outstanding". Surely we can both rule out "poor" and "outstanding", right?

Mata was meh, mediocre if you prefer that word. True, he went to sleep in the buildup play on Swansea's first goal but we didn't buy him for his defensive prowess, did we? I'll still blame Mata for not tracking back, but anyone who feigns shock because he didn't mark Ki all the way should have their heads checked. Otherwise, he put in some neat passing and we did -- did we not? -- dominate possession. We did.

The breakdown came in botching defensive duties on the two goals (I can't imagine you would disagree there) and only two chances Swansea had all game and a lack of urgency when we had the ball. With respect to the latter, it was a collective team failing to press their back line with pace. Rooney and Hernandez were static. If you're looking for reasons trash Mata and Herrera as footballers one thing neither can do is beat defenders on the dribble. They are passers. But in order for them to connect their passes their targets need to be moving into space and that just wasn't happening today.

We miss RvP badly. He moves into space all the time and his finishing is clinical. It's no coincidence that we tend to win games when he plays.

Hernandez is low on confidence for a lot of reasons and teams which stack their back line and go for the smash and grab (Swansea's game plan today) will shut him down. Rooney got his goal but wasn't very lively throughout the match. Mata and Herrera are not going to be effective if their forwards are static. They are not the type of players who can single-handedly take over a match.

Solution? Bring RvP back in place of Hernandez (I can't imagine you would have a problem with that) and bring in Vidal for Fletcher. Any problems with that either?

 

[BennyBlanco]

I don't think this has been stated enough. Swansea were shite. We were just more shite. As was the case for the majority of teams coming over to Old Trafford last season and leaving with three points.

tactically I thought they played us perfectly, esspecially first half, we were shit though no question, the last 20minutes of hoofing the ball aimlessly once again made me want to cry.

 

[Barney]

The squad is threadbare and lacking quality. We played Ashley Young at left back and Jones ended up at right back.

Serious investment is needed. Hererra and Shaw are not enough.

The squad is not threadbare. For a team that aren't competing in Europe it is fine in terms of numbers.

 

[Mister_Stubbs]

The squad is not threadbare. For a team that aren't competing in Europe it is fine in terms of numbers.

Numbers we might have but not enough of them are of real quality.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

One was a deal that should have been done a year ago but they fecked about, and the other one was in the wraps for a while too. After talk of no budget, 150m and other shit like Woodward saying we can comfortably break the transfer record, it's just not acceptable for us to go into the new season without replacing any of the center backs.

They will continue to fleece money off the fans then try to penny pinch on transfers. Disgusting.