[bruiser]

Or Moyes has done more damage than we first thought, not only on the pitch last season, but during last summers transfer window.
I'm not saying the players are blame free, they clearly aren't, however the failure by the Club to identify targets last summer is now beginning to show.

I know some will take this as heresy, but the rot started when SAF was in charge. If anything, SAF did more damage than anyone first thought. It's going to take a while to rebuild the squad and reclimb the pedestal.

 

[bishblaize]

I know some will take this as heresy, but the rot started when SAF was in charge. If anything, SAF did more damage than anyone first thought.

Care to expand?

 

[StephenH]

Adam from FullTimeDEVILS has absolutely nailed what we're all thinking.

Check this out...

 

[SoCross]

Poor Tyler, he was the least experienced of an inexperienced backline. They need some real experience in there.

That's true but I think Blackett has a future here.

 

[bruiser]

Care to expand?

Sure.

When building a legacy, you have to do two things: ensure you win today, and ensure you win tomorrow. In his final season, SAF did what it takes to win the league, but the future of the club had been neglected for two or three years. We saw that last season, and we continue to see it this season. Playing in the Premier League is like climbing an escalator that's going down: Stand still and you end up lower. That, in effect, is what happened. While other teams strengthened and planned for the future, SAF and cohorts focused on the here and now. That was OK to secure his reputation and a final winning season, but it set up Moyes and van Gaal for failure. So, it's unfair to pile all the blame on David Moyes; the rot started when SAF was in charge.

 

[Roboc7]

Seems like nothing has changed. Losing at Old Trafford, disjointed team cohesion, manager pandering to Rooney and bringing on Fellaini as a last ditch attempt to salvage the game. Disappointed with Van Gaal, i expected him to really shake things up this season.

He will be better but there has been too much hype and too much expectation, not everything he does will work out and he has arrived too late really. Too many people assumed he would turn the likes of Cleverley, fellaini, young and numerous others into much better players but he will do well to turn one or two into useful first team players. Adding better players, finding the right formation, selling deadwood and getting better results will all take time, maybe a year or two even.

 

[Acole9]

Very disappointed to lose the match, more so because I don't think Swansea are a particularly good team. A lack of experience at the back today cost us dearly and we conceded two very sloppy goals as a result of that.

 

[Mister Ed]

You don't get the problem with wingers at Man United do you?

Know the difference between Man United wingers and Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich etc wingers?

Our wingers are located on the half line with a handful of defensive tasks and need to sprint over the entire wing over and over again. When they start their action and beat their opponent they achieved 10m terrain profit and still got 30m+ to go to the goal having to beat 2-3 more defenders.

At other clubs the wingers are just wide strikers who are always offensively positioned able to counter, and beat a defender and go at the goal directly. Nani for example repeatedly beat his opponent today, just having to meet 2 more defenders along the way. The only option? Cross or make a risky pass. Same for Januzaj. Both never got into a 1v1 situation as thats basically what happens in a 442 or 352 system.

Can you imagine the effort it takes for Januzaj to pick up the ball at the midline and having to dribble past 2-3 defenders to even get near the penalty box for an entire game? This is the sacrifice you make by putting in 2 strikers. You feck over your wingers, and make them defensive workhorses that have to beat the world in order to do anything offensive.

No you don't get what I'am talking about, ofcourse our wingers have to do more defensive work in the 3-5-2 system, because essentially they aren't wingers anymore but wingbacks. What I said is that our wingers in the previous years, were we weren't playing 3-5-2 but 4-4-1-1 were essentially useless aswell, this is a system with a fullback and a winger, so the winger should be able to focus more on his offensive contribution, yet our wingers contributed feck all offensively, check the stats from our wingers in the last 2 years if you don't believe me. So again, what wingers are fecking over ? because in my book we don't have any, or atleast we don't have any that are getting screwed by the same since they are so bad they don't contribute anything anyway. I prefer the 3-5-2 system as long as we don't have quality wingers in the squad because essentially we don't need them anymore in this system and it makes us less dependent on them. I don't want Nani, Valencia, Young in the team, so I don't mind us playing a system were we don't really need them anymore, in favor of being able to play Rooney, RVp and Mata together.

 

[roseguy64]

The annoying thing is this will drive the transfer muppetism into an absolute frenzy...but it's not the lack of buying players that's the problem. I mean letting our squad stagnate is a part of the problem, but that explains dropping away from being champions/title contenders. It doesn't explain losing routinely at home to teams like Swansea without even creating a single decent chance in the entire game. Teams with far worse players than us show more character than that.

We paid £42m for Mata for example, and he spent the whole game playing like a powder puff version of Scott Parker. We paid £30m for Rooney and he spent the whole game playing panicked sideways passes to Swansea players despite the fact there was almost never a Swansea player within 5 yards of him...sorry but if you're a £30m player and the other team gives you that much time on the ball, that should basically be an automatic 3 points in itself. Our supposed better players don't look like good players trapped in a poor team, if anything they look like the problem. Whenever there is a bright spark it comes from a youngster or someone who's been sitting on the fringes for a while.

There's no point spending big money on supposedly world class players if we can't even get the ones we do have to do basic things correctly.

On the game itself...I don't see the point in ever starting Hernandez anymore. He's lost his ability to stretch opposition teams. We made a mistake getting him to bulk up a bit, because all that's happened is he's just as crap at holding on to the ball but has lost his ability to burst away from defenders. He's a completely pointless player now. Janujaz would have done a better job in his role.

Also not sure why we took Herrera off and not Fletcher. Only one of the two of them was passing the ball effectively and it certainly wasn't Fletcher. Didn't get the point in punting the ball up to Fellaini if we weren't even going to give other players time to get up and support him either. Just the usual go a goal down and descend into a mix of cowardness and brainless stupidity.

We must also be the only team on the planet who start playing the ball SLOWER as soon as the pre season ends. Seriously, in the time we take faffing around before playing the ball 10 yards forwards, a wounded snail could complete the London Marathon. Again, this isn't a lack of signings thing. There are Championship sides who don't have this issue. I bet even Blackpool dont have this issue.

Got to agree with this post.

There wasn't enough effort out there to make things happen. Wasted our control of possession. The attackers were toothless and mistake prone while our play was far too slow.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Adam from FullTimeDEVILS has absolutely nailed what we're all thinking.

Check this out...

I agree with a lot of the things he said. That Adidas deal, all that money will it go on players. Who will Adidas recoup all that money from, the fans of course. The club expect the fans to put their hands in their pockets time after time. I have just bought my little boy a strip(White) and a red shirt, then god help us three new strips will be coming out next season. They have parents over a barrel. All that money coming in and they are quite happy to put a sub standard team on the pitch because they know full well we love our club and won't desert them. We are mugs sometimes.

 

[Roboc7]

Adam from FullTimeDEVILS has absolutely nailed what we're all thinking.

Check this out...

He sums it up pretty well, if we don't invest we can expect to finish outside the top 4 this season and then who knows how long it will take to get back in after that. LVG is the right manager but he is not the answer to all our problems.

 

[El Zoido]

This has proper ruined my weekend. Had been looking forward to this game all summer as well.

To be fair we were missing half of our first team players today (Rafael, Evans, Shaw, Carrick, RVP) and had they all been playing it might have been different, but regardless it still goes to show just how far off the top we are now. Even if we don't buy anyone else I still think we'll get in the top 4 by the end of the season, injuries permitting. Once we've had a run of consistent, competitive games, and the squad begins to gel and understand the roles they have to play I think we have enough to cause even the best teams some problems. But yeah, we really need at bring in least three top class players before the window shuts.

 

[sammsky1]

Very scary if he is right!

 

[DomesticTadpole]

He sums it up pretty well, if we don't invest we can expect to finish outside the top 4 this season and then who knows how long it will take to get back in after that. LVG is the right manager but he is not the answer to all our problems.

Unfortunately I think the club are hoping LvG is the answer. As people keep saying he isn't a miracle worker.

 

[jojojo]

You don't get the problem with wingers at Man United do you?

Know the difference between Man United wingers and Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich etc wingers?

Our wingers are located on the half line with a handful of defensive tasks and need to sprint over the entire wing over and over again. When they start their action and beat their opponent they achieved 10m terrain profit and still got 30m+ to go to the goal having to beat 2-3 more defenders.

At other clubs the wingers are just wide strikers who are always offensively positioned able to counter, and beat a defender and go at the goal directly. Nani for example repeatedly beat his opponent today, just having to meet 2 more defenders along the way. The only option? Cross or make a risky pass. Same for Januzaj. Both never got into a 1v1 situation as thats basically what happens in a 442 or 352 system.

Can you imagine the effort it takes for Januzaj to pick up the ball at the midline and having to dribble past 2-3 defenders to even get near the penalty box for an entire game? This is the sacrifice you make by putting in 2 strikers. You feck over your wingers, and make them defensive workhorses that have to beat the world in order to do anything offensive.

Good post. Giggs was the ultimate box-to-box winger. It was a joy to watch, but he still got heavily criticised by the fans for his "poor final ball" even if what had actually happened was he'd run 50 yards, so he now had to make do with a throw-in or a corner. When Ronaldo got rid of the "no end product" label he was still criticised for being an unreliable defender.

Nani and Valencia met part of the brief, good enough to do enough of what we wanted, for a time at least, but I think the burden on the wingers went up as our central midfield pairings got worse. It's fair to argue that they lack the ability of Robben or Di Maria, but even they would have struggled to shine in the United role as we've seen it defined over the past few years.

 

[Roboc7]

Unfortunately I think the club are hoping LvG is the answer. As people keep saying he isn't a miracle worker.

Yeah that is the danger and no doubt the club would prefer for LVG to get them back in the champions league without spending any money. Maybe the glazers plan is to sell up fairly quickly now but we have been left behind by city, Chelsea and arsenal now and LVg cannot work miracles. If this continues it won't be long until the green and gold campaign resurfaces probably stronger than ever.

 

[Moonred]

As long as we continue to be childish and sloppy in defense, there is no way out. I cannot recall the no. of times we just give away goals like that first Ki goal or the 2nd Sigurdsson one. Add to this the fact that at home our nerves start to kick in as soon as a little pressure is applied does not help. We just have to be mentally a lot stronger than this, you can't win all the matches but sure as hell try not to lose due to amateur mistakes. Unbelievable how much depth we lack in multiple areas and we have had 1 bloody new signing playing today.

The team will improve but you can't expect a team weak in so many areas to surprise you with world class performances.

 

[Lawman]

Today showed how much we lacked in centre mid again. Fletch (post injury) is decent but decent doesn't win you trophies. He really tired the last 30mins. Hope we sign atleast 2 centre mids of real ability.

 

[jojojo]

Sure.

When building a legacy, you have to do two things: ensure you win today, and ensure you win tomorrow. In his final season, SAF did what it takes to win the league, but the future of the club had been neglected for two or three years. We saw that last season, and we continue to see it this season. Playing in the Premier League is like climbing an escalator that's going down: Stand still and you end up lower. That, in effect, is what happened. While other teams strengthened and planned for the future, SAF and cohorts focused on the here and now. That was OK to secure his reputation and a final winning season, but it set up Moyes and van Gaal for failure. So, it's unfair to pile all the blame on David Moyes; the rot started when SAF was in charge.

I don't think it was neglected so much as SAF's optimism about certain signings like Zaha, Powell and even Smailling and Jones helped convince him he was leaving a strong young British core to the team. He may yet be right and it's just the timing that slipped.

I even think he took pride in not emptying the warchest because he thought the next man in would have ideas of his own about how to use it. I don't think he stopped looking to the future, but he may well have looked through rose-tinted spectacles at certain players and even about his replacement in the job.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I don't think it was neglected so much as SAF's optimism about certain signings like Zaha, Powell and even Smailling and Jones helped convince him he was leaving a strong young British core to the team. He may yet be right and it's just the timing that slipped.

I even think he took pride in not emptying the warchest because he thought the next man in would have ideas of his own about how to use it. I don't think he stopped looking to the future, but he may well have looked through rose-tinted spectacles at certain players and even about his replacement in the job.

Then we have to question the buying of certain players in the past. Also the time some have been given when it was obvious they weren't good enough and never would be. Players should have been coming through our own academy, yet they weren't we bought in players. At least some of our own kids might get a chance under our new manager.

 

[marlowe78]

Really disappointing, to say the least. It was a complete replay of how we dropped games last season - a large chunk of possession with no solid final ball, lack of good buildup, and always a step behind the opponent in the few times they counter. Exactly what was going on last year.

We had a very good stretch in the second half when I thought we would go ahead, maybe things would've been different had Rooney not hit the frame. It all went belly-up when Herrera was taken off. I really don't understand that change at all. We were left with no one to hold down the middle, especially with Fletcher getting tired. Fletcher, anyway, should've been taken off at halftime, as his passing was terrible.

van Gaal seems to have a dynamic system but I just don't see ATM how this will get us out of our scoring funk (no goals in open play today - AGAIN). We don't have the wingers we need to generate chances from the outside and if we try to work gaps up the middle, all PL opponents need to do is play narrow and shore up the top of the penalty area as Swansea did today. If you remember the last seasons under SAF, we scored a lot of goals from deep in the box. Our movement forward is so damn labored that defenders can shut that entire area off.

On the positive side, I think Blackett did well even though his inexperience cost us. Nani also showed signs of his old self but Januzaj was by far our best player. Jones also played well.

I am trying to cling to positives but I just don't see how we can finish above midtable with this squad as it is. I also have no faith at all that new players will be signed before the window closes. Woodward is a bullshit artist to me when it comes to transfers.

 

[Waltraute]

I even think he took pride in not emptying the warchest because he thought the next man in would have ideas of his own about how to use it. I don't think he stopped looking to the future, but he may well have looked through rose-tinted spectacles at certain players and even about his replacement in the job.

That's my take on it too, that he honestly believed in Moyes as a true heir to the throne, and wanted him to build the new squad according to his own plan. Moyes were quick off the mark implementing huge changes in the coaching staff, sadly not that much on the ball in the transfer market (or maybe hampered by the board; who knows?)

 

[Ole's_toe_poke]

Unlike last season I expect us to get better I have no doubt about it.

I still think we have a great manager in charge who knows what he's doing and has a vision for where he wants to take us in terms of our play.

It'll just take some time for him to implement his ideas.

Don't panic. However, we do need to buy in these last 3 weeks. Woodward better fecking deliver.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Unlike last season I expect us to get better I have no doubt about it.

I still think we have a great manager in charge who knows what he's doing and has a vision for where he wants to take us in terms of our play.

It'll just take some time for him to implement his ideas.

Don't panic. However, we do need to buy in these last 3 weeks.

I agree with us having a great manager and that he needs time to get his ideas across. However if we don't sign around 3 more players he might just be wasting his time and that is not fair on him.

 

[NJM78]

Some of the players missing are part of the probelem. Players who are always injured.

Or not good enough when fit. The only three who would have made a difference today are Shaw, Van Persie and Valencia as Young and Hernandez are w@nk and Lingard is not a wing back.
The lack of top class talent in our squad is scary and I know it's almost becoming cliche but which of our players would start for another top European team...two or three possibly so why any fan would believe this current team can achieve great things is beyond me. I'd say we are two top class players away from a top four team and probably four away from being title winners.

 

[Roboc7]

The only positive from today is our flaws were there for LVG to see, a year ago we beat Swansea it papered over the cracks and we all know how it worked out. I am on the fence about how this season whether we sign new players or not I see top four as the aim and peak of what we can achieve, I wouldn't be suprised to see us finish fourth and use that as a foundation to build for the future But equally I wouldn't be shocked to see us finish 6th and spend the next few years changing managers and not playing in the champions league it will all depend on how successfully we correct the problems we have or even if we can correct them.

 

[RedStarUnited]

Peps Barcelona lost their first league game, drew the next, and then finally clicked into shape. Pep had a much fuller selection of players than LVG. Aswell. These metmorphisis dont happen over night guys.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

I know some will take this as heresy, but the rot started when SAF was in charge. If anything, SAF did more damage than anyone first thought. It's going to take a while to rebuild the squad and reclimb the pedestal.

It's not heresy, Fergie is getting a lot of blame on here and unfortunately a lot of it is justified. He left that midfield hole for a long long time.

 

[bruiser]

I agree with us having a great manager

He's a decent manager who's a little past his prime. That's all we have to go on - oh, plus losing his first game in the EPL and allowing Swansea to win at OT for the first time in their history. A little premature to declare that he's a "great manager", don't you think? Talk about rose-coloured specs! A lot of hard work is needed, not unsubstantiated optimism.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

It's not heresy, Fergie is getting a lot of blame on here and unfortunately a lot of it is justified. He left that midfield hole for a long long time.

I think he delegated too much in the end. Just seen Ramsey score for Arsenal, didn't he send Gary Neville to speak to him, why not go yourself, Wenger did. He would have been a good player for us. Yet he ran around getting RVP to sign so he got his last title. He stopped being ruthless, letting players have far too much time when they were obviously not good enough to be here anymore. Anderson should have gone within the first 3 years, yet he is still here. SAF was a genius, but like most geniuses he had flaws as well.

 

[thegregster]

Peps Barcelona lost their first league game, drew the next, and then finally clicked into shape. Pep had a much fuller selection of players than LVG. Aswell. These metmorphisis dont happen over night guys.

Yep. Its the downside of changing manager-which we all agree we had to do.

But unfortunately we are in a much more competitive league than La Liga. Fourth place last season had 79 points. If its around that this season we have to get points on the board ASAP.

We really need one of the last seasons top 4 to be a fair bit weaker than last season.

I wish Holland had have went out at the group stages and LVG had two extra weeks to prepare to be honest.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

I think he delegated too much in the end. Just seen Ramsey score for Arsenal, didn't he send Gary Neville to speak to him, why not go yourself, Wenger did. He would have been a good player for us. Yet he ran around getting RVP to sign so he got his last title. He stopped being ruthless, letting players have far too much time when they were obviously not good enough to be here anymore. Anderson should have gone within the first 3 years, yet he is still here. SAF was a genius, but like most geniuses he had flaws as well.

Agree with all that. I personally feel like he lost his long term vision for the club and became a lot more reliant on tried and trusted and his own man motivational skills which was world class even to the end.

 

[NJM78]

Yep. Its the downside of changing manager-which we all agree we had to do.

But unfortunately we are in a much more competitive league than La Liga. Fourth place last season had 79 points. If its around that this season we have to get points on the board ASAP.

We really need one of the last seasons top 4 to be a fair bit weaker than last season.

I wish Holland had have went out at the group stages and LVG had two extra weeks to prepare to be honest.

This and the fact Pep had extremely talented players. LvG does not have a squad anywhere near as good as Barca did 08-09

 

[surf]

Not a great day. Some of the players should have no future at the club and others like the younger ones need to show signs of improvement. The manager's selection, tactics, formation and game management were also part of the problem, and he is smart enough to recognise it. Ferguson would bounce back from a defeat by getting a good reaction in the next game and now it's up to Van Gaal to do the same.

 

[Sandikan]

It's not heresy, Fergie is getting a lot of blame on here and unfortunately a lot of it is justified. He left that midfield hole for a long long time.

Only idiots can blame Fergie! He won the league. You can't leave at a better time.

How is it his fault the team has some gaps over a year on?

 

[bishblaize]

Sure.

When building a legacy, you have to do two things: ensure you win today, and ensure you win tomorrow. In his final season, SAF did what it takes to win the league, but the future of the club had been neglected for two or three years. We saw that last season, and we continue to see it this season. Playing in the Premier League is like climbing an escalator that's going down: Stand still and you end up lower. That, in effect, is what happened. While other teams strengthened and planned for the future, SAF and cohorts focused on the here and now. That was OK to secure his reputation and a final winning season, but it set up Moyes and van Gaal for failure. So, it's unfair to pile all the blame on David Moyes; the rot started when SAF was in charge.

From 2010 to his last transfer window two and a half year's later he brought in De Gea, Smalling, Jones, Hernandez and Kagawa, all of whom were in their early 20s, plus Young, who was 26. In addition you had Evans, Fabio and Rafael who were all pushing for a place in the first team. Wellbeck and Cleverley were both brought back from good loan periods and had good starts. So that's 10 players with promising futures in their early 20s, and one who's 26. On top of that you had also had a bunch of slightly more speculative purchases, like Nick Powell, Zaha, Varela, Henriquez, Bebe (ahem) and so on. Most of them in the early 20s.

So I dont think you could say he didnt think about the future. Of course a good number of those players haven't progressed as hoped, so maybe his judgement at the end was off, in which case yes the 'blame' falls partly on his doorstep. But he didn't deliberately choose poor players, he used whatever judgement had served him so well, so even then maybe 'blame' isn't quite the word.

 

[Chorley1974]

He's a decent manager who's a little past his prime. That's all we have to go on - oh, plus losing his first game in the EPL and allowing Swansea to win at OT for the first time in their history. A little premature to declare that he's a "great manager", don't you think? Talk about rose-coloured specs! A lot of hard work is needed, not unsubstantiated optimism.

A manager who's won the league in 4 countries, and just took an unfancied Holland to WC semis, I'd say that makes him a great rather than a decent manager who's a little past his prime.

 

[bosnian_red]

Only idiots can blame Fergie! He won the league. You can't leave at a better time.

How is it his fault the team has some gaps over a year on?

His fault as in he built the team for that many years and kept on rebuilding it, but since 2008 pretty much he never worked on the midfield. He relied on Carrick and and aging Scholes, with Fletcher having 1 very good season in there, but regardless, it was the weakest part of our team for years. Can't blame him for anything other then the midfield though.

 

[bosnian_red]

He's a decent manager who's a little past his prime. That's all we have to go on - oh, plus losing his first game in the EPL and allowing Swansea to win at OT for the first time in their history. A little premature to declare that he's a "great manager", don't you think? Talk about rose-coloured specs! A lot of hard work is needed, not unsubstantiated optimism.

Did you miss this last summer then? He's a world class manager, always has been and has won trophies wherever he's been. As a tactician he's up there with the very best. "Allowing Swansea to win", what a ridiculous thing to say. Not his fault exactly that our defenders are shite and the midfield is a mess, and the whole squad is injury prone?

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Only idiots can blame Fergie! He won the league. You can't leave at a better time.

How is it his fault the team has some gaps over a year on?

They had gaps when he was there. He didn't address that midfield, he should have done. It has deteriorated even more since then. Is that down to SAF or the board penny pinching? Once we lost Owen Hargreaves to injury he should have been replaced, yet we stuck with the useless Anderson for years, useless Nani for years. Valencia has not been the same player since that bad injury. We let him play on out of some kind of misplaced loyalty and that position has stagnated. Manchester United is not now just a football club it is a business. The owners need to realise that the money they are making is off the success of the team on the field. They cannot afford to let this club fade into midtable mediocrity.