All that could temporary vanish if we have a good performance and a win against QPR.
Why all the pessimism?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
FFS
Still been the case for the last 14 months, basically since Moyes took over. And I definitely recall us getting outplayed a fair bit in Fergie's latter years, he just had the ability to get us to win the games, somehow.
It was never going to be a quick fix, I'm personally optimistic. Not sure how anyone can't be, it's been a great summer (Welbeck aside). This season was never going to be an easy ride.
maybe the answer is just that simple
. I am not impressed by van gaals work during the last 10-13 years and such a terrible start in the new season is just not a good sign. Good manager dont need di maria or Falcao to beat Burnley.
well....two years ago we won the league. We played dull, but still got results. Now we are playing even worse and start dropping points against the likes of Sunderland. The defence looks incredible average and the offensive talent lost all their spark.
Since van gaal took over the parts of the caf start to sound like rawk members. Instead of looking at the facts - 3 EPL matches, 2 points - every result and every decision is explained/justified with "its part of van gaal´s secret masterplan" and van gaal obviously cant fail. If people talking about him, they completely ignore all his feck-ups in the last 15 years and only look at the success.
Furthermore I also dont think that our transfer window has been brilliant, but I wont even start to discuss this.
No, I think the excuses for the results have largely been that we're constantly having to field shit teams full of worthless players because half of our first team are injured, the fact that Moyes ruined the team, the fact that it's a squad largely comprised of total pussies who seem to have lost all confidence and are unwilling to grow a pair of balls to grab it back.
How about we see what happens when we can actually field a team that LvG wants instead of coming to foregone conclusions based on a poor early start to the season, which I personally always expected.
Yea lets keep fielding guys like cleverley fletcher anderson fellaini valencia young nani kagwa welbeck hernandez, and bringing through average players who may have potential, but we have too wait and give them time. While at the same time, some of the best players in the world who are available, but the club did not want them because it goes against the clubs identity.
Would fans want to give Moyes another year? because he is British, but hey VG is available, oh wait appointing a foreign manager is going against the club's traditions we never appoint foreign managers. This is not athletic bilbao, this is MUFC one of the biggest clubs in the world, the only identity this club has really got, is winning.
Remember this era of united that some fans including phil whelan, called united losing their identity, in this new era VG has promoted blackett james and keane, made rooney united captain, who is now the england captain, the core of the united defence are jones smalling evans blackett keane shaw, 80% of our defenders are England and Irish players. If that is losing their identity some people clearly have not had a closer look at what is going on.
Would fans want to give Moyes another year? because he is British, but hey VG is available, oh wait appointing a foreign manager is going against the club's traditions we never appoint foreign managers. This is not athletic bilbao, this is MUFC one of the biggest clubs in the world, the only identity this club has really got, is winning.
Remember this era of united that some fans including phil whelan, called united losing their identity, in this new era VG has promoted blackett james and keane, made rooney united captain, who is now the england captain, the core of the united defence are jones smalling evans blackett keane shaw, 80% of our defenders are England and Irish players. If that is losing their identity some people clearly have not had a closer look at what is going on.
I have no doubt that once all our stars are fit, we will be a better team that reaches top6. My criticism was very specific; before we played the first preseason match, I said two things. Van gaal´s fetish for possession might hamper the offence. His ability to organize a proper defence might be limited. When I watched the first matches I actually saw almost exactly what I expected.
Again; all the injuries cant be an excuse for the first 4 results. Individually our players were still far better than their opponents.
I have no doubt that di maria or Falcao can completely outclass most of their opponents and create things on their own. I dont need a manager for individual brilliance so. I have also no doubt that we will improve, but I dont expect us to come anywhere close to the performance of the top3. After this bumpy start I have a very hart time to see us finishing in the top4.
So why should I become overly excited? After a record spending summer, I´d expect success. Once we start winning against the bottom 13 on a regular basis, I might become slightly more positive. Until van gaal cant deliver the very acceptable minimum, I wont hype him. I am not comfortable to praise people on made up merits; I prefer to judge them by what they actually deliver.
As opposed to players who don't want to play for United, which we've always signed.
Our glaring weaknesses? Like no midfield? Well, now we have di Maria, Herrera and Blind.
Center backs? LvG tried for Hummels but you can't make them sell. He got the next best option. He must obviously rate a few of our CBs or he would have bought another. He could easily have done so.
Have you not read how LvG has had a slow start everywhere he's been? We're implementing a radically different style, and we've been playing it with many players who are ill suited to it.
Seriously?
if you read through the threads in here a lot of what you see is moaning and whining and threads about United losing their identity and soul etc. It's almost as depressing as listening to Episode 4 of the podcast.
After last season, where I felt United had gone from a world beating family with a leader with the influence of Ghandi to a complete laughing stock with a leader like George W Bush. United employed a manager who was completely unproven outside the top 7 of the premier league and had bought Fellaini as their one and only big name signing. This summer we had LvG who came on the back of a HUGE reputation world wide AND a 3rd place in the world Cup with probably the worst and most underrated Dutch side in present memory.
That's a bit hard on George W Bush isn't it
Di Maria, Herrera and Blind is great going forward but entirely suspect defensively. City would walk through it, Chelsea would pass through it, Liverpool would speed through it.
LVG may either rate our centre backs or has decided we're going for the 'you score 4, we score 5' approach. Evans, Jones and Smalling is shocking if you want to go for the title and nobody really knows how Rojo will do (those who watched Sporting allegedly don't think he's much cop).
Good OP. It does my head in, too.
I personally can't wait until the "We've lost our soul and identity" narrative pisses off and dies.
Let's just recap some of the asinine Doom and Gloom narratives that have pervaded the Caf in the past:
"The leveraged buyout will leave us in financial ruin. We will never be able to afford any top tier players again." Result: The club has carefully managed to get the debt well under control, and have started to invest in top players.
"City are unstoppable and we will never again compete. We're screwed." Result: United won the league the year after this took hold and infected almost every thread.
"Barcelona just thumped us in the Champions League final. Barcelona's academy is so much better than ours and anyone else's that they will dominate football for the foreseeable future." Result: Barca's academy, while still excellent, has not yet produced another class like that, just like we have so far not produced another class of 92. Barcelona also got older, and their dominance was toppled by Real Madrid and Bayern.
"Fergie said we'll never again buy another expensive and older player like Berbatov. Any discussions about transferring in a player like that can be dismissed out of hand." Result: Fergie bought RvP - and won the league.
"John O'Shea was a player who filled a role that we still need. We shouldn't have sold him." Result: United got on just fine without O'Shea, and he carried on to have a successful time at another club.
How ridiculous do these look now? This "we've lost our soul and identity" narrative will look the same.
I've been following United all of my adult life. The United team has always supplemented home-grown talent with top-tier purchases from the transfer market, and balanced that accordingly. That's who we are. That has been our identity since the 80s at least (and probably earlier, I just don't know enough about those times).
It seems like people actually miss the period of financial austerity we just came out of. I think we were financially more austere in recent times because:
1) Fergie had a lot of success during that period, not buying at the top end of the market. Buying and developing a young Ronaldo was a masterstroke. We bought a very, very young Luke Shaw. Let's enjoy his development, and the other youngsters we have. We'll certainly be making these types of investments.
2) Obviously we had to manage the leveraged buyout carefully.
3) We were waiting for FFP to kick in. (More on this later).
4) Globally, football (and especially top tier football) increased in value dramatically, due to television, marketing and commercial revenue. The transfer market therefore inflated accordingly, in the form of increased transfer fees, agent fees, and wages. The market adjusted. That's not United's fault. It's not even the fault of City, Chelsea or Real Madrid even (although they certainly haven't helped matters). It's just basic economics.
Now that period of austerity is coming to a close for United. Here's where I think FFP comes into play. I think United, (and Arsenal in a similar way), have been waiting and planning for it. FFP has not evened the playing field, so to speak. It has given United a distinct advantage.
Chelsea have done a masterful job of staying within FFP (mostly because they bought a lot of young talent, loaned that talent out so it retained or increased in value, and streamlined their squad).
City and PSG have their hands tied now by FFP and have already been punished once. Monaco is already selling off, because they cannot sustain their outlay.
Sure, we still have to worry about Madrid and Barcelona. However, the premier league television right deals are now far out-stripping any other league. La Liga simply cannot compete with the premier league globally. Serie A is a mess now. Bendesliga is well run, but let's be honest, the competitive outlook seems like there's Bayern Munich, maybe Dortmund, and then everyone else. They just don't compare. I'm imagining the look on Perez's face at the friendly in the US where the crowd was absolutely dominated by United supporters. Funny how they brought in Chicharito after that.
In terms of global support and popularity there's United, Madrid and Barcelona. Trailing after are Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea maybe Bayern. City aren't even in the same neighbourhood.
I think part of the plan all along was to sit back, let the outrageous spending by the Sugar Daddy clubs continue, and bide our time for FFP to kick in. Arsenal had the same approach. Now that FFP has kicked in - we are seeing Arsenal and United engaged now. We are starting to spend, in accordance with our vast fanbases, revenue and income and the advantage that comes with that.
We should be optimistic, not all this other nonsense. We are still United. It's a great disservice not to recognise that we still have academy players in our side. Evans, Rafael, Blackett, Januzaj, Wilson and Lingard are all still here. (As a side note, our academy is not so bad, other academy players have gone on to become solid PL starting options for other teams players like Shawcross, Chester and Bardsley for example). So, we sold Welbeck. I like him, and wish he would have stayed. But he requested to leave. But he isn't the first to request to leave. It doesn't even come close in my eyes to when we sold Beckham. Or moved on Nicky Butt.
I personally can't wait until the "We've lost our soul and identity" narrative pisses off and dies.
Let's just recap some of the asinine Doom and Gloom narratives that have pervaded the Caf in the past:
"The leveraged buyout will leave us in financial ruin. We will never be able to afford any top tier players again." Result: The club has carefully managed to get the debt well under control, and have started to invest in top players.
"City are unstoppable and we will never again compete. We're screwed." Result: United won the league the year after this took hold and infected almost every thread.
"Barcelona just thumped us in the Champions League final. Barcelona's academy is so much better than ours and anyone else's that they will dominate football for the foreseeable future." Result: Barca's academy, while still excellent, has not yet produced another class like that, just like we have so far not produced another class of 92. Barcelona also got older, and their dominance was toppled by Real Madrid and Bayern.
"Fergie said we'll never again buy another expensive and older player like Berbatov. Any discussions about transferring in a player like that can be dismissed out of hand." Result: Fergie bought RvP - and won the league.
"John O'Shea was a player who filled a role that we still need. We shouldn't have sold him." Result: United got on just fine without O'Shea, and he carried on to have a successful time at another club.
How ridiculous do these look now? This "we've lost our soul and identity" narrative will look the same.
I've been following United all of my adult life. The United team has always supplemented home-grown talent with top-tier purchases from the transfer market, and balanced that accordingly. That's who we are. That has been our identity since the 80s at least (and probably earlier, I just don't know enough about those times).
It seems like people actually miss the period of financial austerity we just came out of. I think we were financially more austere in recent times because:
1) Fergie had a lot of success during that period, not buying at the top end of the market. Buying and developing a young Ronaldo was a masterstroke. We bought a very, very young Luke Shaw. Let's enjoy his development, and the other youngsters we have. We'll certainly be making these types of investments.
2) Obviously we had to manage the leveraged buyout carefully.
3) We were waiting for FFP to kick in. (More on this later).
4) Globally, football (and especially top tier football) increased in value dramatically, due to television, marketing and commercial revenue. The transfer market therefore inflated accordingly, in the form of increased transfer fees, agent fees, and wages. The market adjusted. That's not United's fault. It's not even the fault of City, Chelsea or Real Madrid even (although they certainly haven't helped matters). It's just basic economics.
Now that period of austerity is coming to a close for United. Here's where I think FFP comes into play. I think United, (and Arsenal in a similar way), have been waiting and planning for it. FFP has not evened the playing field, so to speak. It has given United a distinct advantage.
Chelsea have done a masterful job of staying within FFP (mostly because they bought a lot of young talent, loaned that talent out so it retained or increased in value, and streamlined their squad).
City and PSG have their hands tied now by FFP and have already been punished once. Monaco is already selling off, because they cannot sustain their outlay.
Sure, we still have to worry about Madrid and Barcelona. However, the premier league television right deals are now far out-stripping any other league. La Liga simply cannot compete with the premier league globally. Serie A is a mess now. Bendesliga is well run, but let's be honest, the competitive outlook seems like there's Bayern Munich, maybe Dortmund, and then everyone else. They just don't compare. I'm imagining the look on Perez's face at the friendly in the US where the crowd was absolutely dominated by United supporters. Funny how they brought in Chicharito after that.
In terms of global support and popularity there's United, Madrid and Barcelona. Trailing after are Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea maybe Bayern. City aren't even in the same neighbourhood.
I think part of the plan all along was to sit back, let the outrageous spending by the Sugar Daddy clubs continue, and bide our time for FFP to kick in. Arsenal had the same approach. Now that FFP has kicked in - we are seeing Arsenal and United engaged now. We are starting to spend, in accordance with our vast fanbases, revenue and income and the advantage that comes with that.
We should be optimistic, not all this other nonsense. We are still United. It's a great disservice not to recognise that we still have academy players in our side. Evans, Rafael, Blackett, Januzaj, Wilson and Lingard are all still here. (As a side note, our academy is not so bad, other academy players have gone on to become solid PL starting options for other teams players like Shawcross, Chester and Bardsley for example). So, we sold Welbeck. I like him, and wish he would have stayed. But he requested to leave. But he isn't the first to request to leave. It doesn't even come close in my eyes to when we sold Beckham. Or moved on Nicky Butt.
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You've all been spoiled by 20 years of success. We shouldn't think it's ours automatically . It took a long long time after Sir Matt retired to find the right manager and even then it took Fergie six years.
LVG will get it right , I'm more excited about the new season this year now with all the signings than I was last year
LVG will get it right , I'm more excited about the new season this year now with all the signings than I was last year
Post of the day award to Invictus!believe. we´ll go again. next year is our year.
I cant put my finger on it, but I know this kind of statement from somewhere
believe. we´ll go again. next year is our year.
I cant put my finger on it, but I know this kind of statement from somewhere
Hey ! Atleast none of us wrote Falcao a passionate love letter.
How many of our new signings have actually played together though? Herrera started vs Swansea as our only signing and Di Maria started alongside Fletcher.
I think this window is like a Rorschach test: people are projecting their feelings about a wide range of topics.
I get the sense that for many, the large amount of spending validates their unease with what they perceive to be recent and negative trends in football, and probably in other areas as well: that money is power, and it is crowding out community, romance and sentiment. Moreover, as we're just a few years removed from a worldwide financial meltdown, I suspect that there's some underlying nervousness with the notion that jumping into the transfer market is sustainable.
I don't share these feelings, but then again I'm pretty much OK with recent trends in sports (football included). It's a big-money business now-and United can't cut off its nose to spite its face by not using all means to compete. I accept that.
All sports, to me have gentrified-and have priced out many fans who can no longer attend matches. That's a real problem-but not restricted to Manchester United, or sports for that matter. I see this trend in a larger context, as many important elements required to maintain a middle-class lifestyle (quality education, housing in a good neighborhood, enrichment activities for children, etc.) are increasingly unaffordable to many families.
So, I can understand the reasons for some of the negative sentiments, even though I don't share them. To me, United spending £150M, or selling Danny Welbeck are moves by a football team looking to improve itself-nothing more/nothing less.
I get the sense that for many, the large amount of spending validates their unease with what they perceive to be recent and negative trends in football, and probably in other areas as well: that money is power, and it is crowding out community, romance and sentiment. Moreover, as we're just a few years removed from a worldwide financial meltdown, I suspect that there's some underlying nervousness with the notion that jumping into the transfer market is sustainable.
I don't share these feelings, but then again I'm pretty much OK with recent trends in sports (football included). It's a big-money business now-and United can't cut off its nose to spite its face by not using all means to compete. I accept that.
All sports, to me have gentrified-and have priced out many fans who can no longer attend matches. That's a real problem-but not restricted to Manchester United, or sports for that matter. I see this trend in a larger context, as many important elements required to maintain a middle-class lifestyle (quality education, housing in a good neighborhood, enrichment activities for children, etc.) are increasingly unaffordable to many families.
So, I can understand the reasons for some of the negative sentiments, even though I don't share them. To me, United spending £150M, or selling Danny Welbeck are moves by a football team looking to improve itself-nothing more/nothing less.
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Can't agree that the top clubs will walk through that midfield, they didn't walk through Bilbao nor through Real, is it all about Blind?
Evans is decent enough when in form and I have faith in Jones, I just hope Rojo keeps up his WC form.
Why all the pessimism?
1) We've yet to win a game, in 3 not-that-difficult fixtures. We'll have to make those points up in tougher games.
2) We've been absolutely dreadful in all our games.
3) Teams that look much better than us already have the cushion of a points lead from tougher fixtures.
4) Our formation isn't working.
5) We seem to have no way of getting the best out of our best players in RVP, Mata and Rooney. In fact, we can't even get an acceptable performance level from them.
So... Yeah, that'll be why.
1) We've yet to win a game, in 3 not-that-difficult fixtures. We'll have to make those points up in tougher games.
2) We've been absolutely dreadful in all our games.
3) Teams that look much better than us already have the cushion of a points lead from tougher fixtures.
4) Our formation isn't working.
5) We seem to have no way of getting the best out of our best players in RVP, Mata and Rooney. In fact, we can't even get an acceptable performance level from them.
So... Yeah, that'll be why.
Well we've had four games this season, looked 100% awful in each one. This included a game which sparked a genuine debate about whether it was the "worst performance in the history of the club"
I'd say it's easily the worst start to a season I can remember.
Because of this, we could sign 100 players. Some people will continue to be sceptical until they see an improvement on the pitch...because really that's the only thing you have to go on.
Signings alone prove nothing until they're on the pitch and performing. How many times have teams splashed out huge money on players, and either it hasn't worked out at all, or the player has performed well but not really solved the issues with the team's performance?
If the performances don't improve, 95% of the people in this thread echoeing its sentiments, will be firmly aboard the pessimism wagon themselves. If United win their next few games 4-0, the pessimism will soon drown out...apart from me because I like whinging just to annoy everyone.
Of course we will. I expect to see strong improvement after the internationals now, there shouldn't be many excuses when the squad is fully fit, although I'm struggling to remember the last time we've had a fully fit squad.
Hey ! Atleast none of us wrote Falcao a passionate love letter.
you forgot the word "yet". I already saw the Daley Blind underwear pictures. Even I have to admit that the squad is getting quite handsome, so I guess its only a matter of time until someone jizzes his love into words.
Else I agree with Noodlehair
Probably because transfers are the only positive, football-related aspect of United so far. We are yet to pick up a win, have been humiliated by a League One side and our overall performances are akin to some of the dire football we produced under Moyes. I am positive, because we have a wealth of talent, but the team is still crippled in confidence and slowly adapting to the managers philosophy, whereas our competitors are in tune in that respect.
Seriously?
if you read through the threads in here a lot of what you see is moaning and whining and threads about United losing their identity and soul etc. It's almost as depressing as listening to Episode 4 of the podcast.
After last season, where I felt United had gone from a world beating family with a leader with the influence of Ghandi to a complete laughing stock with a leader like George W Bush. United employed a manager who was completely unproven outside the top 7 of the premier league and had bought Fellaini as their one and only big name signing. This summer we had LvG who came on the back of a HUGE reputation world wide AND a 3rd place in the world Cup with probably the worst and most underrated Dutch side in present memory.
United dominated pre season and then came unstuck in the admittedly trickier and less relaxed Premier League. However, the injury list was huge, including two of our biggest signings of the summer and one more of those couldn't play due to work permit and ownership issues. Then United go and buy one of THE absolute best players on the planet and are slated because he was not needed and too expensive. Despite the fact we still have Valencia and Young. Then united go and get rid of a lot of players that have underperformed and been slated here in the forums for ages.
Then united sign Falcao.
And still people are not happy. Losing identity, another big club like Citeh and Ch£l$ki etc.
Sorry but bollocks to all that. United have earned their money, they have neglected their squad and have fallen behind. Times have changed and LvG a WORLD CLASS MANAGER has come in and seen that. He has given everyone a fair chance and made his decisions. Yet people still moan. The same people who moaned about Ed Woodward not spending enough now moan about spending too much or not how they wanted to. Probably the same ones moaning we got Blind and Rojo instead of Vidal and Hummels. The same people no doubt who were slating Fergie for not buying true world class players, or neglecting the squad. Now LvG is wrong for spending too much and buying players that he likes and that fit his philosophy and system, and some of them are true world class players. But he is still taking stick, hilariously for not buying what United need. To think LvG doesn't see what united needs is even funnier. Add to that he is slated now for not giving youth a chance yet having played Reece James and promoting Tyler Blackett and Lingard who unfortunately got injured. Not to mention getting rid of most of the players that everyone here and elsewhere were slating big time. Fickle fans, fickle thinking and too many quick to jump on the bandwagon.
It's indicative of the generation who want everything now, their way and nothing else. Those that know only FIFA and Football manager and United winning. Not those that know what it's like to see your biggest rivals dominate for years and not knowing what it's like to take oppositions fans and your mates shite relentlessly. United don't have a divine right to win. But United do have an obligation to us as fans to play to their best ability, to give 100% and to try to entertain as well as perform. Winning is an added bonus. But we as fans have an obligation to support our team through thick and thin. And that means now. Of course we can object and criticise but let's be at least objective and fair about it.
I personally think we have done well this transfer window, beyond my expectations and are well on the right track. As LvG said, it's a project. It takes time. And I for one am liking the way this project is going and am certainly far happier than this time last year. Yes we have massive frailties and have problems in defence and midfield, but let's wait until we see our new players all fit or starting games before we judge. Blind and Rojo might be exactly what we need. If not i'm sure it will be sorted in January or even next summer. I have patience, I have faith, and I am optimistic. At the very worst at least we are all paying to watch true world class players again and some might say, like never before. I can't wait for the QPR game and can't wait for the rest of the season and win or lose will be supporting the boys and the manager. And unlike the title of this thread I will be forever OPTIMISTIC! and forever United!
Sod all the pessimism let's have some optimistic posts for a change. Sarcastic and piss taking posts are also welcome and completely inevitable.
You have just said exactly what's been on my mind - word for word - for a good couple of days. now Thank you!
Remember the last time an elite, all0conquering team was faced with a rising force in the PL? Everyone said that they should stick to their traditions and believe in themselves and follow their identity. Everyone said that the rising force wouldn't take long to come back down.
Well guess what that rising force was us - Manchester United - and the all conquering team was Liverpool. They didn't spend the required amount, didn't go out and actively get the best players and what they discovered was a very, VERY, slippery slope.
This is the thing with football. Having an identity that is in-line with youth development is great, but that should never undermine the success of the first team. If the first team, responsible for the brand image and the main identity of the club across the world, were to fail consistently, then you're looking at a good many years of mediocrity. Generations like the CO'92 were a freak of nature. It just doesn't happen all too much. We cannot expect every batch we produce to be world-beaters.
After a TERRIBLE season, LVG has come in and analysed what the problems are. The most important task, as was made very aware to him by Ed Woodward, is the complete consolidation of the first team. Remember LVG saying that He's very aware of the commercial obligations? Well it's fact isn't it? We have a zillion sponsors and investors who all depend on Manchester United being number one. That huge Adidas deal? Is only £75m if we enter the top four in two years. Otherwise, it's £50m till we do as a penalty clause kicks in.
We do not have time to let 23 year olds figure out their form in front of goal.
Do you want to know who the main reason behind Welbeck leaving is? It's FERGIE.
Two years ago, when Danny Welbeck was 21, and was still a star talent, if there was such great belief in his potential why didn't Fergie promote him to first team striker? We bought RVP instead and everyone and their mums were happy. With the purchase of RVP, Welbeck had been forever cast aside as third choice striker. The selection was fixed from that point on. THIS IS FERGIE'S FAULT. BUT WAIT! I agree with his judgement. Danny Welbeck was never going to be an out and out striker. He lacks composure to be Manchester United's prime striker. At the truly great clubs, we do not hold on for too long before making decisions on players. So what changed for Danny to leave? Two Words - James Wilson. When it became apparent that Wilson had much better potential that Danny, he was told that he can stay at United if he wants but you'll be behind Wilson. Sorry Danny, you just couldn't perform at the absolute top. The option of Falcao came in very late in the window. So Danny had been asked to make a decision a full week before Deadline Day.
Why on earth are we comparing ourselves to an utterly mediocre club, with respect to winning trophies, like Arsenal? If he performs well there, then great for him. But only special players can perform at OT. They have that certain mentality that is world beating. A certain grit. Even our own Darren Fletcher, right before he got that horrible disease he was exhibiting signs of real class and was dominating PL games! He was about to make it. Fletch has it. Danny loved the club and loved OT, but he just didn't have 'it'.
Cracking counter.
I thought it was just me. I've been reading this forum the last couple of days with my jaw open in disbelief. I genuinely think this is a fantastically exciting time to be a united fans with a new world class manager and a host of world class players coming in, yet the vibe you get from this forum is that we're prepping ourselves for an inevitable relegation battle.
For all the money spent we are even more unbalanced than we were before.
Because it is easier for most people to identify what they hate about the other person, but incredibly hard for them to see the good in others. People can always find something to complain about, and boy oh boy will they not refrain themselves from complaining about it. Praises on the other hand, are hard to come by, especially genuine ones. They only time when they are generous in praises is when they have a favour to ask from that person.
Look around yourself, and you'll find yourself surrounded by people who sees the bad in everything and always have something to complain about.
Look around yourself, and you'll find yourself surrounded by people who sees the bad in everything and always have something to complain about.
There is plenty to be optimistic about, although by the same token, there is enough there to justify concern too. We have bought in some top names, a top manager etc, and it pretty much stops there. If you're of a more simple mind, nothing that has taken place where it actually matters - on the pitch, discourages any pessimism. We have played worse stuff than Moyes' opening games I think. At least we took Swansea apart 4-1 away in the first game last year, playing good stuff with a team that appeared to make sense too. This time round we lost to the same team, at home - playing a system that included Jesse Lingard at right-back (and Ashley Young on the other side!).
Now I am personally confident, but I would not say that anybody else's pessimism or concerns are misplaced. They are very justifiable at present, and to repeat, any encouraging narrative can only be drawn from what happens in the soap opera aspect of today's game - off the pitch.
I don't think it's valid to take a high and mighty approach, or simply dismiss (as I think the second poster in this thread did) criticism as someone trying to be different for the sake of it when our team is getting twatted 4-0 by MK fecking Dons. The manager and the players have it all to show to allay the fears of those who are currently not confident. Again, for the record, that group does not include myself as of today.
Now I am personally confident, but I would not say that anybody else's pessimism or concerns are misplaced. They are very justifiable at present, and to repeat, any encouraging narrative can only be drawn from what happens in the soap opera aspect of today's game - off the pitch.
I don't think it's valid to take a high and mighty approach, or simply dismiss (as I think the second poster in this thread did) criticism as someone trying to be different for the sake of it when our team is getting twatted 4-0 by MK fecking Dons. The manager and the players have it all to show to allay the fears of those who are currently not confident. Again, for the record, that group does not include myself as of today.
Agree 100%. Can you imagine how bullish we'd all be feeling if we'd actually won all our games under Van Gaal so far? (which, on paper, we should have done) There wouldn't be a pessimistic post on the whole of redcafe. We'd all be cock-a-fecking-hoop!
Well, you know us cafites, I doubt there's ever been a time where we've all been content.
That said, of all the times in recent years to demand caf optimism, a period where we've failed to win in 4, including a humiliation to a League 1 side is certainly not one of them. The caf is probably rightly divided right now. Lest not forget in the post-Falcao euphoria. The actual team is still shite right now!
i think even the most miserable twat on here would be full of the joys of spring if we'd 9 points from 9 in the PL and beaten MK Dons in the CC. Pre-season had really pumped up expectations and if we'd delivered on that promise (even in points alone) we'd all be talking about winning the title. As it stands, a lot of us are nervous as feck and there's a general consensus that a top 4 finish would be a good achievement. That's even after signing Falcao and DiMaria. It's quite incredible the way opinions can change after just a handful of games out of a very long season. I'm as guilty of this as the next man fwiw. 2 or 3 wins on the bounced and I can already smell the silverware. 2 or 3 games with dropped points in a row and we're heading for mid-table mediocrity. It also affects my mood between games. Been persistently slightly grumpy for the last couple of weeks. Feck football anyway...
I'm happy about everything except Welbeck.
I am not really pessimistic atm but not optimistic either. I just don't know what to expect at the moment. Have to wait and see. Oh and warning: it's a long post, so anyone who is tired of identity talk, feel free to skip this post.
Why I primarily wanted LvG was because of the foundations he guarantees. I mean look at the players who still keep praising him: Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta, Müller, Schweinsteiger, Lahm for example. What do they have in common? They are world class.
But what else? They are German at a German club or Spanish at a Spanish club. What else? Academy products. What else? They have a clear structure at board level or have enough footballing ppl at senior/management level.
Now I am neither English nor from Manchester. And I love non-English football and players and find the England team and most English players extremely overrated. Still that doesn't mean that every English player is crap and therefore I feel the very few decent ones we have, we should try to focus on them. Focus to produce/find/buy them and develop them.
That doesn't mean that you have to keep all British or British academy players. In fact I never rated Gibson or even Fletcher highly. With Welbeck even if he is no world beater he is still better than most of the English players around and still young so I wanted to keep him. Not because he is British, but because he is one of the few British I rate. Now he has moved, so no way back.
And it's great we have Di Maria and Falcao. But what I am asking myself: What will LvG teach them? The likes of Di Maria/Mata/Herrera/Falcao/Rojo are miles ahead as far as modern football is concerned. It's not them anyway who need to leave the static game we are playing behind. Therefore it would be great if despite all the identity talk being ridiculed we could still focus on British youth.
Like it or not, but Falcao might be in Madrid in a couple of years and Rojo if he improves also in Spain. With others you don't know. LvG might leave in 2 years and so might some foreign players. Till then we might have got rid off more British players. So what will LvG have left behind? Where/Who will the loyal Müller, Lahm, Iniesta et all at United be? What will be our identity? A Woodward buying 5 other world class players? Like it or not, but no matter how rich we will be, we won't be able to change the fact that we are in Manchester/England and Barca/RM are around. More often than not if they are really interested in the player, the player will leave for Spain. A British player might as well, but not that often.
I don't want to see United fail to compete at the highest level. Therefore it was about time we bought some quality, but I don't want us to turn into RM. No disrespect to them, they are the biggest club in the world in many ppls' eyes and it works for them.
But we at United have been at the top of the world in 1999 and 2008 with half the team being English/British (and ofc the other half being top class foreign players). Barca and Bayern still manage to find a good balance between homegrown/Spanish/German and foreign players.
Now it can be that LvG doesn't feel our academy is that talented. But then he should restructure it.
In addition if he develops some of Blackett/Evans/Smalling/Jones/Wilson ... and teaches them his game then in some years even if some of our world class players leave I can be happy knowing that most of those just mentionned will stay loyal to United and are really good players. Therefore we can build our next team around them and add a couple of foreign world class players.
But if LvG leaves behind a foreign XI without visible improvement in the academy, then we could have as well gone for Mourinho and I would be really disappointed in the experiment LvG.
At the moment I just don't know which direction it all will go, especially middle to long term, better wait and see.
Why I primarily wanted LvG was because of the foundations he guarantees. I mean look at the players who still keep praising him: Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta, Müller, Schweinsteiger, Lahm for example. What do they have in common? They are world class.
But what else? They are German at a German club or Spanish at a Spanish club. What else? Academy products. What else? They have a clear structure at board level or have enough footballing ppl at senior/management level.
Now I am neither English nor from Manchester. And I love non-English football and players and find the England team and most English players extremely overrated. Still that doesn't mean that every English player is crap and therefore I feel the very few decent ones we have, we should try to focus on them. Focus to produce/find/buy them and develop them.
That doesn't mean that you have to keep all British or British academy players. In fact I never rated Gibson or even Fletcher highly. With Welbeck even if he is no world beater he is still better than most of the English players around and still young so I wanted to keep him. Not because he is British, but because he is one of the few British I rate. Now he has moved, so no way back.
And it's great we have Di Maria and Falcao. But what I am asking myself: What will LvG teach them? The likes of Di Maria/Mata/Herrera/Falcao/Rojo are miles ahead as far as modern football is concerned. It's not them anyway who need to leave the static game we are playing behind. Therefore it would be great if despite all the identity talk being ridiculed we could still focus on British youth.
Like it or not, but Falcao might be in Madrid in a couple of years and Rojo if he improves also in Spain. With others you don't know. LvG might leave in 2 years and so might some foreign players. Till then we might have got rid off more British players. So what will LvG have left behind? Where/Who will the loyal Müller, Lahm, Iniesta et all at United be? What will be our identity? A Woodward buying 5 other world class players? Like it or not, but no matter how rich we will be, we won't be able to change the fact that we are in Manchester/England and Barca/RM are around. More often than not if they are really interested in the player, the player will leave for Spain. A British player might as well, but not that often.
I don't want to see United fail to compete at the highest level. Therefore it was about time we bought some quality, but I don't want us to turn into RM. No disrespect to them, they are the biggest club in the world in many ppls' eyes and it works for them.
But we at United have been at the top of the world in 1999 and 2008 with half the team being English/British (and ofc the other half being top class foreign players). Barca and Bayern still manage to find a good balance between homegrown/Spanish/German and foreign players.
Now it can be that LvG doesn't feel our academy is that talented. But then he should restructure it.
In addition if he develops some of Blackett/Evans/Smalling/Jones/Wilson ... and teaches them his game then in some years even if some of our world class players leave I can be happy knowing that most of those just mentionned will stay loyal to United and are really good players. Therefore we can build our next team around them and add a couple of foreign world class players.
But if LvG leaves behind a foreign XI without visible improvement in the academy, then we could have as well gone for Mourinho and I would be really disappointed in the experiment LvG.
At the moment I just don't know which direction it all will go, especially middle to long term, better wait and see.
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