Our Rivals Squad next year - Arsenal

Mogget said:
Well, obviously? Say what you want about him but obviously we're going to be pleased about winning a trophy and signing Sanchez. That doesn't mean we can't also think that Wenger needs to leave.
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That's not my point. I'm talking about the cyclical nature of Arsenal fans' Wenger outlook.

For what it's worth, I agree. He should have left after the FA Cup. He's taken Arsenal as far as he can. Time for a Klopp.
 
Very few managers would've done better at Arsenal than Wenger has in the last five years. I don't see them challenging for the league at the minute but I doubt a new manager is going to change that either. They have more to lose by getting rid of him.
 
acnumber9 said:
Very few managers would've done better at Arsenal than Wenger has in the last five years. I don't see them challenging for the league at the minute but I doubt a new manager is going to change that either. They have more to lose by getting rid of him.
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Very few top managers would've blatantly neglected key areas that everyone and their mothers could see they've needed reinforcements in. Doubt youd have seen many other top managers sell so many world class players to direct rivals either.
 
Archie Leach said:
He's sold one world class player to a direct rival.
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I was thinking of RvP, Cole, and had a brain fart there and included Cesc. Still, couldn't see Mourinho or Ferguson for example doing that.
 
acnumber9 said:
Very few managers would've done better at Arsenal than Wenger has in the last five years. I don't see them challenging for the league at the minute but I doubt a new manager is going to change that either. They have more to lose by getting rid of him.
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Honestly, I think Wenger has taken Arsenal as far as he can. He did brilliantly during the lean spell when we had such limited funds, and I don't think there are many managers who could have done better in his position, but now we're starting to spend money only to end up with the exact same results. Aim for the bare minimum; a spot in the top 4, 2nd in the CL group, out in the last 16 or the last 8 if we get a lucky draw but that's it.
 
Orc said:
Very few top managers would've blatantly neglected key areas that everyone and their mothers could see they've needed reinforcements in. Doubt youd have seen many other top managers sell so many world class players to direct rivals either.
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Very few top managers would've went near Arsenal in the last 5 years and those who could would not have kept them in the Champions League every year.
 
Mogget said:
Honestly, I think Wenger has taken Arsenal as far as he can. He did brilliantly during the lean spell when we had such limited funds, and I don't think there are many managers who could have done better in his position, but now we're starting to spend money only to end up with the exact same results. Aim for the bare minimum; a spot in the top 4, 2nd in the CL group, out in the last 16 or the last 8 if we get a lucky draw but that's it.
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He probably has but who's going to replace him?
 
acnumber9 said:
He probably has but who's going to replace him?
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I'm sure there are a decent number of managers at smaller clubs who have potential. Look at Simeone, who thought he'd turn out to be this good?
 
Mogget said:
I'm sure there are a decent number of managers at smaller clubs who have potential. Look at Simeone, who thought he'd turn out to be this good?
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I'm sure there are some. Picking the right one isn't that easy though. We Utd fans know that all too well.
 
Orc said:
But still constantly won things at the same time. The fact that Wenger has done so while winning nothing is the issue here.
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There's no difference, just that if it were not for United, Chelsea being particularly strong over the last while, arsenal would have won a lot more. He also wasn't working off the same budget.

I'm not sure what people expect from wenger, miracles?
 
Am I the only one that doesn't actually think tonight was part of some wider issue, or proof that they're 'bottlers', but just one of those freak results that happen now and again?
 
Sam said:
Am I the only one that doesn't actually think tonight was part of some wider issue, or proof that they're 'bottlers', but just one of those freak results that happen now and again?
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Yeah it wasn't a crucial result, we'll still qualify. It was fecking complacency and they've made life harder for themselves now.
 
Archie Leach said:
Yeah it wasn't a crucial result, we'll still qualify. It was fecking complacency and they've made life harder for themselves now.
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I thought you were a bit unlucky too, as the first goal looked at least a yard offside. If that is rightfully disallowed, you probably go onto see that game out comfortably.

As we, sadly, found out against Leicester, one wrong decision like that can completely change a game.
 
The issue with Wenger is that he's gotten stale and Arsenal is a soft as a baby's bottom. Too many finesse players and not enough players who can deal with physical play. Doesn't mean they need a bunch of steel but they need leadership and more fiery play.

Sure finances are an issue but they spent all this money on Sanchez and spent nothing on fixing the DM position. Welbeck didn't solve their striker issue.

Too many luxury buys and not enough being spent on quality players at need positions.

If Arsenal wants to do better than fourth a get more than 1 trophy in 10 years they need to get more cash but more importantly get younger and more fiery at the Manager spot.
 
Sam said:
I thought you were a bit unlucky too, as the first goal looked at least a yard offside. If that is rightfully disallowed, you probably go onto see that game out comfortably.

As we, sadly, found out against Leicester, one wrong decision like that can completely change a game.
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It was offside but we still had a two goal cushion at home. Against Anderlecht there's no excuse for that not being curtains.
 
golden_blunder said:
There's no difference, just that if it were not for United, Chelsea being particularly strong over the last while, arsenal would have won a lot more. He also wasn't working off the same budget.

I'm not sure what people expect from wenger, miracles?
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A DM and CB cover at least? Surely that's not too much to expect
 
AllezLesDiables said:
The issue with Wenger is that he's gotten stale and Arsenal is a soft as a baby's bottom. Too many finesse players and not enough players who can deal with physical play. Doesn't mean they need a bunch of steel but they need leadership and more fiery play.

Sure finances are an issue but they spent all this money on Sanchez and spent nothing on fixing the DM position. Welbeck didn't solve their striker issue.

Too many luxury buys and not enough being spent on quality players at need positions.

If Arsenal wants to do better than fourth a get more than 1 trophy in 10 years they need to get more cash but more importantly get younger and more fiery at the Manager spot.
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That is really harsch though. Ozil is the type of marquee name they couldn't let go if he joined them and I don't think Sanchez would have came if it wasn't for Ozil going there first. Wenger just had to snap that deal regardless of the fact that you are right, it did further turn them in to a team which lacked the mean streak to win matches against better teams than themselves.

Still a brilliant signing from Wenger, he followed it up with Sanchez who was the signing of the season with Costa and Fabregas(if we consider price). With Sanchez and Ozil already there, they can easily attract another world class player in a way I don't think they've been able to in a very long time. Hopefully he will have more options with that in mind, so he can hand pick a player instead of having to accept whoever was available and wanted to go to Arsenal.

All the "project" clubs started with whatever marquee signing they could attract and usually overpriced as well.
 
Annahnomoss said:
That is really harsch though. Ozil is the type of marquee name they couldn't let go if he joined them and I don't think Sanchez would have came if it wasn't for Ozil going there first. Wenger just had to snap that deal regardless of the fact that you are right, it did further turn them in to a team which lacked the mean streak to win matches against better teams than themselves.

Still a brilliant signing from Wenger, he followed it up with Sanchez who was the signing of the season with Costa and Fabregas(if we consider price). With Sanchez and Ozil already there, they can easily attract another world class player in a way I don't think they've been able to in a very long time. Hopefully he will have more options with that in mind, so he can hand pick a player instead of having to accept whoever was available and wanted to go to Arsenal.

All the "project" clubs started with whatever marquee signing they could attract and usually overpriced as well.
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The problem with Ozil is that he's a luxury player who shows up erratically and needs top end players to play with. He's fine in a team where he's not relied upon game in and game out as the main offensive threat/creator, which is why he flourished at Real Madrid, but has struggled at Arsenal.

Sanchez signing is great but again striker and #6 aren't good enough to win anything aside from an English cup trophy.

Arsenal would have been better off with a striker like Benteke who is great in the air, provides high level link up play, and brings a nastiness and physicality to his play rather than an extremely talented but lazy floater like Ozil not to mention they would have saved 12-15 mil in transfer fees and they could have usedpart of that money for a #6.
 
AllezLesDiables said:
The problem with Ozil is that
he's a luxury player who shows up erratically and needs top end players to play with. He's fine in a team where he's not relied upon game in and game out as the main offensive threat/creator, which is why he flourished at Real Madrid, but has struggled at Arsenal.

Sanchez signing is great but again striker and #6 aren't good enough to win anything aside from an English cup trophy.

Arsenal would have been better off with a striker like Benteke who is great in the air, provides high level link up play, and brings a nastiness and physicality to his play rather than an extremely talented but lazy floater like Ozil not to mention they would have saved 12-15 mil in transfer fees and they could have usedpart of that money for a #6.
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Think you missed my point. It was that when you start wanting to sign the best player in the world, you will have an extremely difficult time even if you can pay the transfer fee. Look at what Liverpool managed to scrape together this year to Suarez, or Tottenham when they wanted to replace Bale. Arsenal wanted a marquee signing and they'd have taken any marquee player to start their project. For every marque player you buy, the next one comes a lot easier and the first one is especially hard.

I agree about your assessment on Ozil, but I think his main value is as a trophy-wife to show that they are actually a team with an upward curve in the status of the world.
 
The reality is, it's just difficult to see Arsenal going places under Wenger anymore. Harsh, but probably true. I've said this in this thread in the past, but Arsenal simply aren't a team to fear while Wenger is around and they have seemingly stagnated, irrespective of having more significant funds at their disposal. I just think they have reached a limit now and to progress to another level would mean Wenger being replaced.

They finally got over their nine year trophy drought in May and while it's merely a domestic cup, I expected that to be the catalyst for some early season momentum heading into the new campaign, but instead Arsenal have stuttered in every competition they've been in so far and are yet to really convince with Sanchez proving the sole difference in many games.

The injuries excuse is something that rings hollow when they have suffered an inordinate amount of injuries for years now too. I don't see it as something that is purely 'misfortune' and questions need to be seriously asked of Arsenal training methods and whether some of these injuries are a consequence of what Wenger incorporates in training. This issue really should have been remedied years ago, as it's unacceptable to go into nearly every season anticipating a glut of injuries at any given time. Especially when there isn't sufficient cover in numerous positions.

With all that being said, I still expect them to finish above us, but there's no reason why we can't finish above them. That speaks volumes of the level they are currently at when a side as flawed as ours still has a chance at finishing in the top three at the expense of the.
 
Annahnomoss said:
Think you missed my point. It was that when you start wanting to sign the best player in the world, you will have an extremely difficult time even if you can pay the transfer fee. Look at what Liverpool managed to scrape together this year to Suarez, or Tottenham when they wanted to replace Bale. Arsenal wanted a marquee signing and they'd have taken any marquee player to start their project. For every marque player you buy, the next one comes a lot easier and the first one is especially hard.

I agree about your assessment on Ozil, but I think his main value is as a trophy-wife to show that they are actually a team with an upward curve in the status of the world.
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The problem that you'll find is that if the team around a superstar isn't good enough that star will leave and the team falls apart because they were carried by that player. Both Spurs and Liverpool have seen the fallout from Bale and Suarez moving on, which means the team foundation wasn't good enough to begin with.

Both Spurs and Livepool need to get a more solid foundation so that when they get a world class player his departure doesn't take them to a mid table team
 
AllezLesDiables said:
The problem that you'll find is that if the team around a superstar isn't good enough that star will leave and the team falls apart because they were carried by that player. Both Spurs and Liverpool have seen the fallout from Bale and Suarez moving on, which means the team foundation wasn't good enough to begin with.

Both Spurs and Livepool need to get a more solid foundation so that when they get a world class player his departure doesn't take them to a mid table team
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They never bought a world class player though. They just developed one, who outgrew the club and left. Arsenal are trying to actually buy, currently world class players, for the first time in a decade or so and they needed to get a foot in the door. Tottenham or Liverpool could never achieve that without doing what Arsenal did, get any marquee signing they could possibly get to join them. Quality and a perfect fit doesn't really matter, it is about getting your foot in the door.

So even if Ozil wasn't all that great, do you think Sanchez would be there today if they hadn't started an upwards moving project last year with Ozil? I don't think Sanchez would have to be fair.
 
Been going on about it for weeks, this new system we play has made us a far worse team.
 
Sam said:
Am I the only one that doesn't actually think tonight was part of some wider issue, or proof that they're 'bottlers', but just one of those freak results that happen now and again?
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Yes and no. The wider issue wasn't the comeback itself (ie. the "bottling"), but the fact that Anderlecht over two (!) games was able to match Arsenal... without some bottling of their own Anderlecht would've won the 1st match, and they created chances throughout the entire game last night (as early as the 3rd minute and as late as the 90th). For years now Arsenal attempt to play positive combination football inside the opp. half without having either the personnel or (far more crucially) the mindset to deal with DF transitions. That is on Wenger. Look at Real Madrid, their starting XI this season has no specialist holding mid or "destroyer" either (MF comprised of Modric, Kroos, James, Isco, basically four playmakers), yet it works because Ancelotti got James and Isco to run and work for the team (though we are yet to see how well their DF coordination holds up against a Bayern, Dortmund or Chelsea for example, but at the moment it's functional enough for the vast majority of their games, something which can't be said for Arsenal).

Forget pundits last night calling them tactically naive because they weren't sitting back on their lead (which is, frankly, bs), the issue is that Arsenal don't know how to defend transitions: firstly there is no collective pressing scheme whatsoever, just individuals chasing balls or standing off, and secondly there is no systemic urge from players ahead of the ball to run back and help out when they've been bypassed. A little pragmatism could go a long way, but so much about Wenger breathes an air of nonchalance when it comes to dealing with opponents (despite, ironically, being well informed on them). It's not even that he actively underestimates them or anything, rather that he seems to overrate his own players' ability. Didn't he also once say the best players don't need to be coached, just to let them do their thing? If ever anyone embodied that clichéd phrase oft-employed by weary managers in the press room which is equally a modern football player mantra ("we just focus on ourselves, not the opponents bla bla"), it's him. That might've worked when at least his team balance was right (ie. a MF anchored by a Vieira, a Pétit) and the context too (tactically fairly simplistic landscape of late 90s/early 00s PL).

All that doesn't take away from Wenger's overall achievements, just saying everyone has blind spots...
 
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Wenger has reached the end of the road imo. Last night, when it started to look a little dicey at 3-1, he was just sat in the dugout chewing his fingernails. 10 years back he'd have been on the touchline screaming at Ramsey to stop trying to be a centre forward and to sit in for 10 minutes.
The fight seems to have gone out of him, he just accepts things now.
Although Arsenal will probably finish above us this year, the lack of fire from the manager will extend through the whole team even further than it already has.
 
peterstorey said:
We have played 4231 a couple of times and looked far better.
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I do wonder if not having a top class DM and quicker CB is why Wenger has tried to change the system. Trying to favour controlling the game and possession so we don't leave ourselves vulnerable on the counter. In our heavily defeats last season those two positions is where we got badly exposed. Well this could have been avoided by actually buying who we needed there.
 
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