Decades or centuries? No need to go that far, off the top of my head, without searching, Eric Garner in New York was killed by police, and a kid in Cleveland got shot and killed for holding a toy gun. This year. When minorities receive a disproportionate amount of police brutality, it is nearly impossible to not view incidents like this through the prism. Some people are raising the question of what would happen if the kid was white, would he be killed? There is enough evidence to not answer that question with a definite yes. And that is disturbing.
Riots in Ferguson, St Louis
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Decades or centuries? No need to go that far, off the top of my head, without searching, Eric Garner in New York was killed by police, and a kid in Cleveland got shot and killed for holding a toy gun. This year. When minorities receive a disproportionate amount of police brutality, it is nearly impossible to not view incidents like this through the prism. Some people are raising the question of what would happen if the kid was white, would he be killed? There is enough evidence to not answer that question with a definite yes. And that is disturbing.
The recent cases are merely the tip of the iceberg for something that's been going on in American society for much longer.
A bit surprised they waited until dark to announce the Grand Jury decision. Maybe they thought at night fewer people might gather around to protest or something. Not sure it would have made much of a difference in the reactions though.
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shame most of the people in the thread who trashed him before won't be big enough to say they made a mistake...but the ruling is all that matters
I'll hold my hands up and say my thinking on this has basically gone 180 degrees with the information now coming out.
More detail on the shooting in Cleveland
http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/24/justice/cleveland-police-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
This is supposedly the gun the kid had been pointing at people and that he went for when the cops approached and told him to put his hands up.
No expert on fire arms but not sure my first reaction would be to think it was a toy. The original caller to 9-1-1 said he thought the gun was probably fake, but does not seem to have known that for sure.
Wondering if the kid had some mental issues or substance abuse issues as the stories out so far seem to describe what to me is very odd behavior.
Not sure how big the kid was, how he was dressed, could the cops easily determine his age, what other options they had with them to handle the situation (ie a taser), or if given the circumstances and the information that had in that moment if a taser would normally be used.
Another senseless death no matter what really happened there.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/24/justice/cleveland-police-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
This is supposedly the gun the kid had been pointing at people and that he went for when the cops approached and told him to put his hands up.
No expert on fire arms but not sure my first reaction would be to think it was a toy. The original caller to 9-1-1 said he thought the gun was probably fake, but does not seem to have known that for sure.
Wondering if the kid had some mental issues or substance abuse issues as the stories out so far seem to describe what to me is very odd behavior.
Not sure how big the kid was, how he was dressed, could the cops easily determine his age, what other options they had with them to handle the situation (ie a taser), or if given the circumstances and the information that had in that moment if a taser would normally be used.
Another senseless death no matter what really happened there.
Pepper spray was fired by police
Looking at the background is that even in Ferguson? I heard cops in Seattle used it to break up a crowd that as blocking a highway. Have heard reports it was used in Ferguson but supposedly not until after the crowds began to get out of hand.Pepper spray was fired by police
Got the picture from here . Seems to be from the riots.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30190224
I completely agree with you. It seems the narrative that the press and (some of the) public wants is "poor, innocent unarmed teenager needlessly killed by thug police officer's evil guns."
The reality has turned out to be "robbery suspect resists arrest by punching police office and trying to steal his gun winds up shot dead in the street".
Everyone who follows the laws and respects authorities will have no problems. If I am pulled over for a traffic stop, I am the most polite and non-confrontational person I can be. When you rob a store for cigarillos to smoke your drugs, and then walk down the street in the middle of traffic and then raise your fists to a man of the law who is trained to use a weapon and trying to arrest you, you are putting your own life at risk.
This riot is not over one incidence(which has its fishy elements) but a reaction to police behavior towards black people. Sure the guy who was killed was not without fault, but many black people get unfair treatment every day.
More detail on the shooting in Cleveland
http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/24/justice/cleveland-police-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
This is supposedly the gun the kid had been pointing at people and that he went for when the cops approached and told him to put his hands up.
No expert on fire arms but not sure my first reaction would be to think it was a toy. The original caller to 9-1-1 said he thought the gun was probably fake, but does not seem to have known that for sure.
Wondering if the kid had some mental issues or substance abuse issues as the stories out so far seem to describe what to me is very odd behavior.
Not sure how big the kid was, how he was dressed, could the cops easily determine his age, what other options they had with them to handle the situation (ie a taser), or if given the circumstances and the information that had in that moment if a taser would normally be used.
Another senseless death no matter what really happened there.
A 12 year old playing with a toy gun doesn't need to have mental health issues for god sakes. Especially in country like America with gun culture. Maybe the complainant was just too paranoid instead and even he said it was probably a toy?
This is a case of being too trigger happy especially when you have other non lethal weapons available as article says and a kid involved who hasn't been given chance to explain or been talked to either plus it wasn't pointing to the police at the time. Maybe cops should be given bulletproofs to prevent them panicking.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/24/cleveland-shot-boy/19471925/
More details and pic of the child.
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I don't think either of the first 2 statements have been proven. Considering the laws 2nd cannot be taken as proven just because he got away AFAIK.
It's probably somewhere in between. Anyway given all the factors involved here as many have talked about before on here can see why this became volatile.
Im actually English, just live in the US now. Ive also gone through law enforcement training, hence why I tried explaining to you the way things are written through training, and law.
But by all means, carry on
It will probably make no difference, but I appreciate the fact you can say that. If facts came out supporting the other side, I would have had to do the same.
Basing my question on reading what reports are available. Including the kids reaction when ordered by the cops to put his hands up. He went for the gun according to the info we have available.
Don't see a lot of kids these days running around pointing guns at strangers even in the US.
There is video of the shooting that will show what actually happened and once all evidence is in we can then pass an accurate judgement
Not sure if this has been shown here before, its Michael Brown assaulting a shop keeper:
Incidentally, the very same shopkeeper had his store looted last night because he had the audacity to have been attacked by Michael Brown.
EDIT: I should probably clarify that he of course did not deserve to get shot, but I'm somewhat bemused seeing photos of him as a kid and being described as innocent.
Incidentally, the very same shopkeeper had his store looted last night because he had the audacity to have been attacked by Michael Brown.
EDIT: I should probably clarify that he of course did not deserve to get shot, but I'm somewhat bemused seeing photos of him as a kid and being described as innocent.
That took place a mere 12 minutes or so before Brown and Wilson squared off.
The thing that I find hard to get over is Brown having gone over to Wilson and slammed his car door on him and punched him. If that indeed happened, Wilson, especially being a cop, had the right to use deadly force. Maybe not in the way he eventually did when Brown had his hands up later on, but certainly when Brown punched him and reached for his gun (as Wilson claimed).
The thing that I find hard to get over is Brown having gone over to Wilson and slammed his car door on him and punched him. If that indeed happened, Wilson, especially being a cop, had the right to use deadly force. Maybe not in the way he eventually did when Brown had his hands up later on, but certainly when Brown punched him and reached for his gun (as Wilson claimed).
Not sure if this has been shown here before, its Michael Brown assaulting a shop keeper:
Incidentally, the very same shopkeeper had his store looted last night because he had the audacity to have been attacked by Michael Brown.
EDIT: I should probably clarify that he of course did not deserve to get shot, but I'm somewhat bemused seeing photos of him as a kid and being described as innocent.
How dare the shop owner confront him over the shoplifting.
But as you say, no proof in this at all that the cop was correct in shooting Michael Brown.
A toy gun or plastic gun a kid would point at things including maybe people while pointing it all around while playing. That's pretty much the point kind off along with target practice if it was that kind of. Maybe could ban them altogether otherwise.
As i said before, Seems overly trigger happy behavior to me considering -
1) The caller said it was probably a toy gun.
2) Non lethal weapons were available with the police.
3) It wasn't even pointed at Police at the time and he had not issued any threats.
4) They were dealing with a child like a normal criminal seeing details telling him to put his arms up, instead of explaining to him. Seeking for his guardian/parents etc....
5) After the first shot and 2nd was fired into him too.
To me infact it even seems tough to justify shooting at a 12 year old who seems to look his age pretty much, unless he fires the first shot somewhere.
Ultimately, i guess in such sort of situations to put it bluntly maybe it comes down too would you rather risk some innocent lives or would you rather risk the cops life and place burden there. Maybe cops should be given instructions to use more types of non lethal weapons and also bullet proof vests and protection to prevent panic ? USA can afford that, i imagine. And maybe training to shoot to wound when they can under special circumstances only like the case before when unarmed.
http://www.wcpo.com/news/state/stat...revent-more-police-shootings-in-toy-gun-cases
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/22/ohio-grand-jury-evidence-walmart-shooting
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...e-video-walmart-shooting-john-crawford-police
Seems this type of shooting has happened before too and Grand Jury cleared in that case too with a BB air rifle at Walmart and a prank call.
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Has anyone had a chance to go over the court documents? I have a link here from I think a 4chan board, people are putting up screenshots of the witness statements in the documents, so you dont have to go through thousands of pages.
http://4archive.org/pol/thread/39143416
WARNING: 4chan. May contain extreme politically incorrect opinions, racism, and other vile things. But the screen caps are legit.
Witness 34 and 41. Now I know why he wasn't indicted.
http://4archive.org/pol/thread/39143416
WARNING: 4chan. May contain extreme politically incorrect opinions, racism, and other vile things. But the screen caps are legit.
Witness 34 and 41. Now I know why he wasn't indicted.
whatever Brown did, he did not deserve to be murdered in cold blood when he had his hands up.
The murderer for the time being may have escaped justice....but he will be judged by the True Judge one day...and "into that great void his soul be hurled".
The murderer for the time being may have escaped justice....but he will be judged by the True Judge one day...and "into that great void his soul be hurled".
Judge Rinder?
Who's "you lot?"
American gun owners who go into robot mode when they talk about weapons. What a messed up situation.
As I said will have to wait until ALL the evidence is in and then pass a proper judgement on this particular incident.
Many cops do wear body armor. Though it is not an end all threats protection. Non-lethal items are an option from some police officers, depending on the situations. Though things like TASERs have been pulled from some police depts. for a variety of reasons, including them causing the deaths of those they were used on. But it should be an option for every cop, though there will be situations where a cop has to judge which to use and those judgements will always be open to 2nd guessing, as they should be.
Toy guns should be made entirely of bright colored material. Colors that it would then be illegal for real guns to use.
Does this cover walking in a dark hallway? Or reaching for your wallet during a traffic stop?
http://www.lohud.com/story/news/loc...al-examiner-rules-homicide-brooklyn/19493599/
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/25/justice/south-carolina-trooper-shooting/
I could be here all day you know.
A lot of legal experts are questioning the prosecutors methodology during the grand jury hearings.
As well they should. He was far too lax in his approach imo.
He was on a playground waving an airsoft pistol around...
For anyone that doesn't know here are some examples of airsoft pistols:
They are incredibly realistic replicas, not toys, if someone waved one in my face I wouldn't be taking the time to check whether it was the real thing or not.
Not saying either incident was justified or not, and there's certainly a racial element, particularly in Ferguson, but sometimes, people do stupid shit and it gets them killed, waving a pistol around on a play ground, physically attacking an armed cop in a town with a history of racial unrest, just not very bright things to do. Do you deserve to die for either of them? Probably not, but hey you don't always get what you deserve, and you can't always rely on the judgement of the other person, best not to do stupid shit I find.
I do have a lot of sympathy for police, the cop in this case, I'm pretty sure didn't go to work that day intent on killing someone, unfortunately he ended up in a situation where he was required to respond and it ended up with someone being killed. Not only does he have to carry the weight of that forever, his life is now basically ruined.
He was on a playground waving an airsoft pistol around...
For anyone that doesn't know here are some examples of airsoft pistols:
They are incredibly realistic replicas, not toys, if someone waved one in my face I wouldn't be taking the time to check whether it was the real thing or not.
Not saying either incident was justified or not, and there's certainly a racial element, particularly in Ferguson, but sometimes, people do stupid shit and it gets them killed, waving a pistol around on a play ground, physically attacking an armed cop in a town with a history of racial unrest, just not very bright things to do. Do you deserve to die for either of them? Probably not, but hey you don't always get what you deserve, and you can't always rely on the judgement of the other person, best not to do stupid shit I find.
I do have a lot of sympathy for police, the cop in this case, I'm pretty sure didn't go to work that day intent on killing someone, unfortunately he ended up in a situation where he was required to respond and it ended up with someone being killed.
Not saying either incident was justified or not, and there's certainly a racial element, particularly in Ferguson, but sometimes, people do stupid shit and it gets them killed, waving a pistol around on a play ground, physically attacking an armed cop in a town with a history of racial unrest, just not very bright things to do. Do you deserve to die for either of them? Probably not, but hey you don't always get what you deserve, and you can't always rely on the judgement of the other person, best not to do stupid shit I find.
I do have a lot of sympathy for police, the cop in this case, I'm pretty sure didn't go to work that day intent on killing someone, unfortunately he ended up in a situation where he was required to respond and it ended up with someone being killed.
Which the reports have said also had the orange plastic part on it which shows its fake removed.
http://apps.stlpublicradio.org/ferguson-project/evidence.html
Until you go through all of this, I'm not sure how you can come to that conclusion.
Yep, fair enough. Far too often things like this get lost in dogmaticism.
Having said that, it's important for the conversation to not turn away from how ridiculous the response to the initial protests was. That these guys were loose on the streets of a civilized nation, one of the greatest in the world, remains incredible to me:
Anyone with law enforcement/military backgrounds - and there are plenty in this thread - can see what these clowns for what they truly are: cosplayers. Dangerous ones.
Yeah but you don't know thats what actually happened though.
Nope not a farmer shotgun and .22 rifles are reasonably easy to obtain if you have a valid reason to want one and suitable place to use it (gun club / written permission from landowners). Pistols and machine guns - the sort of guns people have no practical reason to own are impossible to get and rightly so.
Walk in to a station and tell them you want a gun for home protection and they'll most likely lock you up.
No its not relevant in the case itself but it does go some way to explaining the reaction to the ruling, beyond it just being scumbags.
I would imagine it's very difficult to be objective if you're living in Ferguson and black, when the majority of people in power represent the social minority you will always get accusations of cover up and discrimination (some probably legitimate).
Yep, I've fired airsoft pistols, without the orange tip there's no telling, made from the same materials as the real thing, weigh and even handle similarly.
I was in my local gun store only last week and we looked at a real pistol and an airsoft replica side by side... you're a better man than me if you could tell the difference - and I didn't have the pressure of worrying about me or someone else being shot!
I just feel bad for the good people of Ferguson. It literally looks like a war zone. I think there is too much of an "Us VS Them" mentality and until that changes this will happen over and over.
I saw a vine of someone calling out one of the few black police officers saying something like "you should be ashamed" and I feel like that is the root of the problem. Until there is a better representation of black men or women in these positions I don't see the problems going away.
Why is this? Are people discouraged by their own communities to be a police officer. Are they made to feel like outsiders or are they just not getting the opportunities?
I saw a vine of someone calling out one of the few black police officers saying something like "you should be ashamed" and I feel like that is the root of the problem. Until there is a better representation of black men or women in these positions I don't see the problems going away.
Why is this? Are people discouraged by their own communities to be a police officer. Are they made to feel like outsiders or are they just not getting the opportunities?
http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/25/justice/ferguson-grand-jury-documents/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
Wilson's whole testimony just does not strike completely true to me and seems to be tailored to justify use of gun. The charge of Brown trying to reach him even while being shot at sounds very dodgy and not sure how it can be more reliable than any other eye witness story.
This part -
.. is just absurd and would feel out of place even in a movie let alone a real life case. Hard not to feel that police covered up a lot of stuff here.
Does anyone know the racial makeup of the grand jury?
Wilson's whole testimony just does not strike completely true to me and seems to be tailored to justify use of gun. The charge of Brown trying to reach him even while being shot at sounds very dodgy and not sure how it can be more reliable than any other eye witness story.
This part -
.. is just absurd and would feel out of place even in a movie let alone a real life case. Hard not to feel that police covered up a lot of stuff here.
Does anyone know the racial makeup of the grand jury?
Now the grand jury is involved in the cover up?