True. But even Allardyce would win everything in sight with Bayern and Barcelona.
I doubt it. At this kind of players you need a manager that matches. Or the dressing room rules you - and the players make the tactics. Or it is chaos.
Pep Guardiola's Bayern
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I doubt it. At this kind of players you need a manager that matches. Or the dressing room rules you - and the players make the tactics. Or it is chaos.
Of course that's nonsense. Pep rejuvenated that Barcelona side which was deeply in crisis before he came.
He created that Barcelona side and I think by the time he leaves he'll be regarded as a manager that improved Bayern as well.
He sure did. Saturday will mark four years on from when Barça beat Madrid 5-0 at Camp Nou in one of the greatest performances ever.
Football is being played in a level of intensity and a load of matches that are not natural with the game. Speed and high intensity pressing are hurting the game not helping it.
In the first half, they made City look like they were down to 10 men. It was unbelievable.
True. But even Allardyce would win everything in sight with Bayern and Barcelona.
Crazy talk.
I really enjoy the moments where I found the sarcasm and others didn't. I'm too often on the wrong side as well, so it makes me feel better that I'm not alone.
Pretty sure Sarni was sarcastic, however there are actually people(as evidenced in Wenger out thread) that believe that make ridiculous statements in seriousness. Pep is pretty underrated on the Caf, it's quite often you see arm-chair experts putting out statements like "I'd like to see Guardiola manager a lower level club" or "A monkey could've managed that Barcelona side".
The scary thing is, they played with 10 men AND even that without the likes of Götze, Müller, Lahm, Alaba, Schweinsteiger, Thiago.... They just started with Hojbjerg, Rafinha and Rode.
True. But even Allardyce would win everything in sight with Bayern and Barcelona.
They said the same about Magath
What about "Guardiola would struggle with the more physical, fast paced football in the EPL"?
He should've come to an English club to further prove his worth than going tyo what was then the best team in the world. There's very little he's proving at bayern atm. Another thing that would've been great about him moving to the prem would be that they'd be another elite team in world football.
Does he have to prove anything though? The best players go to the big clubs because they're wanted there and they have the best chance of success. The same surely applies to managers?
Why on Earth he should come to an 'English club' to prove himself? Why does it make an English club better to do that?
That's a bit like saying Messi should go to Stoke to prove himself further. Guardiola is a genius. He's got nothing to prove.
We'll see. I don't think there is much difference between them.
I also think that the result of the games last season, is a bit misleading. IIRC, Bayern dominated on Spain but couldn't score, while on Germany, Guardiola totally missed the tactics and Ancelotti scholed him.
Still, Guardiola is a fast learner in my opinion, and will do better if they eventually meet Madrid. I like how Madrid plays, but they aren't an unbeatable team like Pep's Barca. Simeone's Atletico is a very good example of that. Even on the final, Real was extremely lucky to win.
In an eventual match between Madrid and Bayern, I think it would be around 50:50 and if I had to choose the favorite, I would actually choose Bayern (don't forget the curse of the winner, so Madrid won't win UCL this season). Chelsea and Atletico are a bit below, all other teams are far below these two teams (unless BVB finds some form, which looks very unlikely at the moment).
I can't claim to watch Bayern every weekend, but surely Ribery has struggled to regain that worldly form he showcased in 2012/13? Injuries may be much of the issue there but he doesn't look to be playing to quite that standard. Robben seems to be operating at a similarly high level. The biggest shift in his career came a few years ago when he started working for the team and cut out the dead-end stuff.
According to "Pep Confidential", Pep was shaken by the news Vilanovas death and he let the players have their way who wanted to attack full out, against his own tactical plan for the match.
That may or may not be true, but the result didn't reflect the true balance of power between the two teams. A tie this year would be quite a bit closer. I personally can't tell who would have the edge, Real seem really pretty strong this year. But then, they didn't have much of an injury list so far, and Bayern will have Lahm, Thiago, a fully fit Schweinsteiger and hopefully Martinez back by then.
People seem to forget that Pep agreed to sign for Bayern before they won the treble. Saying he's got little to prove at Bayern just means you haven't been following them or the way they play before and after Pep arrived. Regardless, the premier league is not the pedestal for top managers.
Madrid were lucky to win in the sense that the equaliser (which was very much deserved) came so late on. Atletico did not create much during the match and their goal came from a ridiculous Casillas mistake. Madrid were definitely deserved winners over the 120 minutes. Also while I am not saying that Madrid were as good as Guardiolas Barca, that away win vs Munich last year was better and more impressive than any of Barca's away displays in the CL under Guardiola and was also better than any of their semi final performances under him too. Barcelona's only real impressive semi final performance under Guardiola was vs 10 man Madrid and the bulk of that great play came from Messi, not the team.
Don't get me wrong, I think that Madrid deserved to win last year, but anyway equalizing on the last minute requires a big amount of luck.
I agree aboyt the performance on Munich, but I really think that it was a weird result (similar to United 1 - City 6) which doesn't tell the entire story. On Madrid (IIRC) Bayern were the better team, despite that Madrid won. And then in the second game, Bayern started on kamikaze mode and soon got a dose of reality. Madrid was the worthy winner on that game and against Atletico so deserved to win the UCL (although I think that BVB were brilliant on the second match and could have won if it wasn't for Mkhitarian losing chance after chance / Casillas having a great performance). But, I don't think that there is much difference (if any) in quality between Madrid and Bayern.
Think you'll find it is!
In the first leg Bayern were all over Madrid and were unlucky not to score. They were on top (for the first 30 minutes or so) until Benzema scored against the run of play and that changed the game and put Madrid in a comfortable position. Madrid were better for the remainder of the match and Casillas did not have much to do apart from a save from Muller late on in the game. I agree the score line did not reflect the difference in quality between the two teams. If Bayern had scored in the period they were on top in the first leg the game and scoreline would have been very different. Madrid having the second leg away was a big advantage and it always is these days.
As for who is better between Madrid and Bayern now? There is not much and on a neutral venue I would say it would be 50-50 (perhaps I would say Bayern would be more likely to win but then again I am very pessimistic when it comes to football and I never really predict that Madrid will win any big games). If they play eachother this season outside the final, wherever the second leg is held will play a massive part in deciding the tie (ie the team that has the 2nd leg at home is at a big disadvantage) and whoever scores first will also play a big part as if Madrid score first they can do the same as last year and if Bayern score first they can keep possession and force Madrid to open up and leave space and then pick them off.
Perhaps Ribery was a bad example but my main point being that it's great to watch Bayern play as a cohesive unit instead of most good teams who have a steady supporting cast of 8 being elevated by 2-3 great attacking players.
I'm probably exaggerating here but Bayern really play as a proper unit both offensively and defensively and I don't know how to put it into words really, without lavishing superlatives. Its really great to watch.
I definitely do not agree with that. Plenty of great managers including some of the very best of all time have never managed in England. Managing at Madrid, Barcelona, Inter etc is definitely more difficult than managing in the Premiership and that is reflected by the constant turnover of managers at these clubs despite them being highly successful. Inter got rid of Mancini after he won two (three including the one handed to them due to Calciopoli) league titles in a row, Barcelona's coach was going last year even if he won the league on the last day and the less said about Madrid in that regard the better. Due to his success at Barcelona Guardiola will always be remembered as a great manager. It is too early to say how highly he will be rated in the list of all-time great managers but his work at Barcelona has proven that he is a world class coach and he does not have to go to the Premiership to confirm this.
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This is at least partly due to a difference in - call it what you will - culture, though. Nobody's expected to sit for half a life time. Trap himself sat for what - five seasons? That's sensational in modern Inter terms. As for Barca, Michels - arguably the greatest manager of them all - sat for four seasons during his longest spell.
But I agree, of course, with the general point. Managing in the PL clearly isn't any kind of requirement. Besides, if Pep did decide to come to England, he'd land at some club with huge resources anyway - and the imaginary point would still stand. He'd have to go and manage a no mark club with zero funds, and take them places, before convincing some people.
I think there is something to it actually and it has nothing to do with the PL being better or whatever. It has something to do with how managers are idealized in the UK and everyone views them as the captains of the ship which is a totally different attitude to how it is on the continent. Managers have egos and this treatment naturally appeal to them and that is why Mourinho, Ancelotti, Mancini and many others speak fondly of working in England and how they'd love to go back. I'd say the PL for managers is like La Liga for players. Of course that doesn't mean that you need to prove yourself in the UK to be a great, the level of difficulty is defined by many other factors.
Ribery has struggled with injuries all calendar year. Mid October were the first matches now he was subbed in - since November he is starting matches again. In this season he has assist or goal every 65 minutes. That is a great number (even if some of it were with substitute appearances) for offensive players especially as he still has to get in real good form and as right now his partner (Alaba) is injured.
The good thing at Bayern is that he got time to get fit again and did not have to play through his injury. He played this 6 weeks without visible problems (apart from having to get back into form and rhythm) so I think it is just a question of time.
because most of the big English clubs are struggling atm and are clearly well behind some of their European counterparts. Or perhaps he could've gone to any of the big Italian clubs. Fact remains what he's doing at Bayern isn't really going to prove much.
Why do people think just about anyone can manage a top club? Guardiola can prove so much at Bayern Munich like he did at Barcelona, why didn't Ferguson go to manage in the Spanish or German league to "prove" something when United became so successful and monopolized the EPL [almost] ? Moyes tenure should tell us that not everyone is cut out to manage at the top level. If Guardiola wants to manage in England then that's fine, but he doesn't need to do it to prove anything or to be considered great, he's already great. 14 trophies in 6 years at Barca isn't a record to be ignored.
This is so strange. Guardiola doesn't have to prove anything, and he is at Bayern exactly because he proved himself. Should he go to WBA and win the PL to prove himself to you? Seems to me that Guardiola is the only top manager that has yet to "prove" himself.
His Barcelona "B" job was faaar from easy, his Barcelona job wasn't easy and i sincerely doubt his Bayern job is easy considering that the players he took have high egos (especially after those 3 CL finals and the treble). He has to control the dressing room and instill hunger in their game which I imagine is quite hard when you have won it all. Also, his Bayern side is aging and yet he has brought great additions to it to mitigate that.
If he has t prove himself at any club, it has to be Manchester United after Van Gaal retires
Its a matter of history isn't it. Many said that his success at barca was largely down to having one of the most ridiculously talented teams ever. The question then would have to be can he create another uber successful team without all that he had at barca. Going to bayern does nothing for his legacy. Mou has done it everywhere and taken on a whole variety of jobs and now the question is can he keep going which will then probably mean he'll go on to be recognized as the greatest coach/manager ever. Sir Alex proved over and over again that he could rebuild teams and that his success as a manager was largely down to him rather than the players as he did it with different ones. If Pep could do what he did at Barca at another club he then would probably have a legit claim at going down as the greatest. At this level it becomes about legacy.This is so strange. Guardiola doesn't have to prove anything, and he is at Bayern exactly because he proved himself. Should he go to WBA and win the PL to prove himself to you? Seems to me that Guardiola is the only top manager that has yet to "prove" himself.
His Barcelona "B" job was faaar from easy, his Barcelona job wasn't easy and i sincerely doubt his Bayern job is easy considering that the players he took have high egos (especially after those 3 CL finals and the treble). He has to control the dressing room and instill hunger in their game which I imagine is quite hard when you have won it all. Also, his Bayern side is aging and yet he has brought great additions to it to mitigate that.
If he has t prove himself at any club, it has to be Manchester United after Van Gaal retires
No one said anything about WBA so where that comes from only god knows. Barcelona B stuff is just a footnote really. His Barca job was incredible and this Bayern job isn't something that's going to tell us much unless he stays in it for a long time
I'm sure this conversation has been talked about before.
But
No one is saying Pep not a great manger but through out his career so far as a manger Pep's always players at his disposal who could do anything he asked of them. Although this is a task itself (how do you constantly motivate the best players in the world daily)but I think people asking the question what can Pep do with players who aren't the best in the world ? Have a point and so far we don't know
Now This isn't taking anything away from Pep and what he has achieved but when comparing him with the best of all time then you have to take everything into consideration.
As for Fergie at the hight of his powers at United there was nothing left to prove. Fergie had already shown that he can mange a total range of clubs(He's time at Aberdeen is as extremely impressive).
At the moment we can't say the same for Pep. Yet
It cant be ignored but fact remains he's got a legit chance of going down as the greatest ever and unless he stays at bayern long enough to create his own team that really isn't going to happen there. Sir Alex proved that he can keep winning over and over again with different groups of players. When Pep was going to get to that stage at Barca he basically bolted. He's taken over a Bayern side that he clearly hasn't moved forward and until this generation moves on then can he put his stamp on the club and make his own team. Had he come straight to the prem he'd have had a tough job to do and if he'd have gotten the same level of success im pretty sure there would be no more questions. The question is not whether he's great, the question is just how great is he?
Carlo Ancelotti has taken over some pretty talented teams, yet nobody says anything about that. I rate Ancleotti no less because he's inherited talented teams.
Where do you put him in the greatest of all time argument? do you even have him there somewhere? He himself has to prove that he can build teams that can sustain such levels for whole league campaigns and not just CL. btw there's also a difference in taking over a great team and taking over a great squad of players. When Pep took over at Barca he took over some really talented footballers but they weren't a great side hence they had just finished the 3rd in the league. What he's taken over at Bayern is the best team in the world who had just had a basically faultless season. I struggle to see how he's ever moving them forward if he doesn't stay long enough to see this current generation leave.
There's this concept that a manager who builds team has to be superior to the manager who fixes and controls them short time (like Ancelotti does). It's very difficult to manage clubs like Juventus, Milan, Chelsea and Real Madrid where the expectations are great and you need to deliver in short term while unable to make any significant alterations to the team. It's a completely different perk than building your own side cut out to your needs and vision, doesn't necessarily mean it is therefore much easier.
Taking over a team of talented players and make them even better in their technical ability and tactical capacity is harder than making a small team with less talented players be successful. The fact that Pep took over a great team and made them the best football machine in history speaks well about him, is not an argument against him.
Some managers take over great teams and can't get them to play good football, what Guardiola did is probably the most difficult thing to do in the sport.
He doesn't need to do that, make the best even better is far harder than make not the best slightly better.
Some managers take over great teams and can't get them to play good football, what Guardiola did is probably the most difficult thing to do in the sport.
He doesn't need to do that, make the best even better is far harder than make not the best slightly better.
What makes Bayern a club lacking the environment where a club manager can prove himself? A lack of challenge? Considering that any club being able to offer Guardiola an interesting position is by default a club that competes in the CL every year, thus having the same sort of challenge Bayern faces, that's not a feature those "struggling" clubs could provide. Is it a harsh media environment? I'm not sure the media can be harsher than at Bayern. Is it the players? Few teams in the upper echolon shun "star players" as much as Bayern does. Xabi Alonso is the biggest deal in the past decade or so and that says a lot. Nobody ever seriously considered a Messi, Ronaldo or Neymar for Bayern. So to accomplish something with almost exclusively the second rank of players that others did not want (Ribery/Robben) AND turn them into stars (European Footballer of the Year for Ribery) is quite challenging, considering the opposition (Ronaldo/Messi each year).
Dunno... I think this is just a campaign to have Pep in the EPL, because you would like to see him there for being there. Not because there are any factual reasons for him to "have it better" or "proving himself better" in the EPL. Football in England is still only 11 people kicking the ball against 11 people kicking the ball.
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