[Lawman]

And he had Champions team then.

We basically have the same team plus some super stars now! Like £200m+ and the decision not to even bench Falcao was very strange today.

 

[Lawman]

60 percent posession, 83 percent accuracy and 0 shots on goal. Tells me that something is wrong. Sure, Soton is a good defensive side-but all the posession and knocking the ball around didn't lead to enough solid chances. Losing 1-0 at home is pretty poor, especially given a fully healthy squad. Is this really how LVG wants the team to play?

We are looking like a cup team!

 

[Leg-End]

We basically have the same team plus some super stars now! Like £200m+ and the decision not to even bench Falcao was very strange today.

3 parts of the defensive spine of that Championship winning team is gone, people tend to forget that.

 

[Lawman]

3 parts of the defensive spine of that Championship winning team is gone, people tend to forget that.

The 3 if you are meaning (Vidic, Rio and Pat) were all way past their best.

 

[Leg-End]

The 3 if you are meaning (Vidic, Rio and Pat) were all way past their best.

Perhaps they were but LVG doesn't have any of them so its not "basically the same team", we lost a ton of experience and I think people underestimate the impact that has. We got Rojo in but he's been too in and out injured to settle yet.

 

[jem]

3 parts of the defensive spine of that Championship winning team is gone, people tend to forget that.

Although I feel that they were all past their best, I do wonder if keeping Evra wouldn't have been beneficial, particularly given Shaw's injury problems.

 

[WR10]

He could have easily switched Rooney and Di Maria's role today. The fact that he thought Fellaini as a striker is a better option than Di Maria as a midfielder is a very, very scary thought. Colossal mistake.

 

[NK86]

He could have easily switched Rooney and Di Maria's role today. The fact that he thought Fellaini as a striker is a better option than Di Maria as a midfielder is a very, very scary thought. Colossal mistake.

It jas been clear for a while now. His backup plan, when we have to chase a game, is to throw Fellaini up top and hope we get a knock and score. It's embarrassing that after all these years of managing the top teams around Europe that is all he can come up with. He seems to be tactically not clever or fast enough. Someone who can change a formation or positions of players to have a positive impact on a game. He has done that before but it was mostly needless and ensed us becoming poorer as a result, case in point is swapping the positions of ADM and Young against Villa when we were dominating them and then it all went to toss.

What were his comments post match? Did he take any responsibility for that performance and result?

 

[NoPace]

Same old problem with the 3 at the back; It makes us hard to beat (unlucky to conceded today) but in the league, we just need to accumulate points so we're better off going gung ho.

If we'd played 4 at the back and been more open, we get at least one win from Stoke, Spurs and Soton. Even if you lose 2, you've still got more points.

This 3-3-2-2 or whatever it's morphed into now would/will be useful in the CL, but it has no place in most league games. Especially at home. Definitely not when we're trailing with 20 to go at home.

 

[WR10]

It jas been clear for a while now. His backup plan, when we have to chase a game, is to throw Fellaini up top and hope we get a knock and score. It's embarrassing that after all these years of managing the top teams around Europe that is all he can come up with. He seems to be tactically not clever or fast enough. Someone who can change a formation or positions of players to have a positive impact on a game. He has done that before but it was mostly needless and ensed us becoming poorer as a result, case in point is swapping the positions of ADM and Young against Villa when we were dominating them and then it all went to toss.

What were his comments post match? Did he take any responsibility for that performance and result?

His tactics a lot of the time seem to be based on massive gambles than anything solid really. Might explain why we've been so 'lucky' in a few of our results this season. His and Rooney's comments post game were very poor, borderline delusional. Too fussed with Southampton's tactical set up for the game, which was a cover up for his failures this game.

 

[Dante]

We're turning into Arsenal.

 

[bbest]

feel United have not addressed their midfield issues. the hard running & tackles by opposition is not neutralised.

 

[RedRover]

Wherever LVG has gone, he has operated a strict system.
The system is the star of the show, not the players.
This means that there is no particular need for star players - just players who can hold possession and pass the ball, without panicking.
He looks for intelligence, not flair.

Players will either adapt/learn to play in the system OR be benched/fired/sold.
It is upto the players to adapt to the system, not the other way around.
Players must be able to play in multiple positions and be able to play in any position on the pitch (Total Football).

I realise that some of you are young, so are unaware of what he did at Ajax, AZ, Barca, Bayern, etc. The guy is very stubborn and he will persist with his system or be sacked. He won't change it (if he believes in it).

I'm 30 years old so am well aware of what he has achieved.

The issue here is persisting with a system which doesn't suit the players we have, despite 6 months of trying. Indeed even he's chopped and changed selections and formations so which system is the "star"? - because he's used various at different times and for me that's half the problem.

He's signed players who you would assume he believes can fit his system yet seems to have no idea where to play them. He's taking players who have played well in one position and shifting them about every other week.

It all reeks to me of trying to be too clever pushing a system thats not entertaining and seems old fashioned compared to what most other top clubs are doing. Trying to play total football is great if you have players who can do it. Comparisons to Ajax are pointless because he had a group of players from a youth set up schooled in a way that ours simple aren't. It's also looking at a system decades old and frankly things have moved on.

Part of the problem is his stubbornness. It's cost him his job at Barca and Bayern where things went wrong in a big way. I hope that's not where it's headed.

Bottom line for me is that while we're a better team than we were last year, he's spent a fortune and we're playing dire football and with the same points total we had last year. He hasn't got time, or I suspect the money to build a completely new side and needs to get the best out of what he has. It's a decent group of players and with a few additions he should have more than enough to finish top 4. That's the minimum standard he has to achieve.

 

[Werder Herzog]

Lost 1 game in 11 against a team who have the best defence in the league who came for a draw. Yes their were clear problems- mainly how slow we looked up front but deary me its not as bad as were making out.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

Louis' post match interview is worrying. Does he honestly think Saints were lucky? Or that they came for a draw? Or that we played a much better game than they did?

Also someone smack Rooney on the head for his comments please.

 

[RedRover]

I agree with that,I actually thought we were much improved passing out from the back today.We were comfortable on the ball and the defenders rarely hoofed the ball forward unlike other games.

The problem was with the tempo and penetration in the final third.In the 10 minutes or so when Mata had his 2 or 3 chances we looked pretty good l,asid e from that though we were very stale.

The 352 causes too much pressure on wingbacks to provide service they arn't capable of.Also Rooney and Di Maria were both in position.

It's a regular issue for me. Other teams pass comfortably with tempo but most importantly the passing is decisive and creates an opening. We just have no pace or urgency.

The fact is, most teams in the PL will happily concede possession to a top 4 side because a point is a good result against United - especially at OT. Yesterday we had the ball for long periods but always in front of and rarely behind their back 4 or midfield.

It's all just pass, pass, pass then cross from out wide when the wing backs overlap. Moyes got slated for that kind of style last year.

As far as positions, Rooney is never going to be Paul Scholes no matter how often he's played in midfield. He does alright with his work rate but is wasted.

And Di Maria needs to be able to pick the ball up in the middle and run at teams - he's the only player we have to inject pace into the attack and get terms backing away.

 

[RedRover]

Lost 1 game in 11 against a team who have the best defence in the league who came for a draw. Yes their were clear problems- mainly how slow we looked up front but deary me its not as bad as were making out.

The issue is how bad we were even though the opposition seemed happy with a draw. Creating no clear chances and not having a shot on goal with £250 million plus worth of players on the pitch is pretty close to as bad as it gets.

If we can be shut down that easily then better sides will have little to worry about and it's the games against those teams around is that will decide whether we end up Top 4 or not.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Lost 1 game in 11 against a team who have the best defence in the league who came for a draw. Yes their were clear problems- mainly how slow we looked up front but deary me its not as bad as were making out.

We drew a few of those game that in the past we would have won. I don't care how long an unbeaten run it was, a bit of adventure and we would have got more points. We could have lost a game we drew, yet won a game we drew and had more points. These are league games and we need as many points as we can get.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

It's a regular issue for me. Other teams pass comfortably with tempo but most importantly the passing is decisive and creates an opening. We just have no pace or urgency.

The fact is, most teams in the PL will happily concede possession to a top 4 side because a point is a good result against United - especially at OT. Yesterday we had the ball for long periods but always in front of and rarely behind their back 4 or midfield.

It's all just pass, pass, pass then cross from out wide when the wing backs overlap. Moyes got slated for that kind of style last year.

As far as positions, Rooney is never going to be Paul Scholes no matter how often he's played in midfield. He does alright with his work rate but is wasted.

And Di Maria needs to be able to pick the ball up in the middle and run at teams - he's the only player we have to inject pace into the attack and get terms backing away.

Exactly right. It is no good having ADM up front if he isn't going to get the ball anyway. He needs to be as you say in midfield running at teams. Teams just sit there and defend and unfortunately they are finding it easy.

 

[World Game]

Louis' post match interview is worrying. Does he honestly think Saints were lucky? Or that they came for a draw? Or that we played a much better game than they did?

Also someone smack Rooney on the head for his comments please.

What he said was correct. They did come for a draw, they did get a lucky goal and we did play much better than them.

 

[Werder Herzog]

I recognise all the faults above and we should have more points on the board. Van Gaal now needs to find an 11 and stick with it. A system that is not 3-5-2 or 5-3-2 and stick with it. Give it a run and get it working

De Gea
Rafael Jones Smalling Shaw

Carrick Blind Herrera

Di Maria Rooney Januzaj/Valencia

I would give Herrera the tip of the diamond job for now and have Rooney up top- then we have RVP, Mata and one of Wilson or Falcao to come on if things aint going to plan.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

What he said was correct. They did come for a draw, they did get a lucky goal and we did play much better than them.

They came to hit us on the counter. The goal wasn't luck IMO. It was well deserved.

We dominated possession while being absolutely impotent and unimaginative in the extreme. That's not playing much better than them.

 

[RedRover]

Exactly right. It is no good having ADM up front if he isn't going to get the ball anyway. He needs to be as you say in midfield running at teams. Teams just sit there and defend and unfortunately they are finding it easy.

They did find it easy yesterday. They "parked the bus" but there were no great saves from Forster, not any last ditch defending or clearances off the line. They were steady, comfortable and we wouldn't have scored if we'd still been playing now.

To be honest it's not the defeat but the manner if it really. Devoid of ideas, square pegs in round holes, no obvious direction, no pace. Just very poor football.

Di Maria can be a superstar in the PL if deployed correctly. The system needs to allow him to come from central positions and either run at players, deliver a quick ball in behind or put in a cross. It's the key to opening teams up and letting other players get the shackles off.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

What he said was correct. They did come for a draw, they did get a lucky goal and we did play much better than them.

We didn't get a shot on target, yes we had possession, but we didn't get one shot on target, not one. How is that good?

 

[DomesticTadpole]

They did find it easy yesterday. They "parked the bus" but there were no great saves from Forster, not any last ditch defending or clearances off the line. They were steady, comfortable and we wouldn't have scored if we'd still been playing now.

To be honest it's not the defeat but the manner if it really. Devoid of ideas, square pegs in round holes, no obvious direction, no pace. Just very poor football.

Di Maria can be a superstar in the PL if deployed correctly. The system needs to allow him to come from central positions and either run at players, deliver a quick ball in behind or put in a cross. It's the key to opening teams up and letting other players get the shackles off.

If we had lost in an exciting game, then I would have been upset, but there would have been good signs there. I thought this would be a great game and to be honest both team deserved to lose.

 

[Nights]

We didn't play the best, however, that being said, we dominated possession and the opposition only had 1 shot on target the entire game. People seem to think Southampton are some sort of pushovers that we should walk through them with some sort of blitzkrieg football, yet they have the tightest defence in the league statistically for a reason. Other than the 0-3 vs City, they've held their own in every game against the 'usual Top 4 sides' ie. Chelsea Arsenal, us etc.

They parked the bus, our defence had a brain lapse moment, they scored. I'm not sure how they 'played us off the pitch' as so many seem to be saying. That's not saying we couldn't be better, and some of LVG's decisions were odd, but the degree of overreaction here on the caf after a loss is amazing.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

We didn't play the best, however, that being said, we dominated possession and the opposition only had 1 shot on target the entire game. People seem to think Southampton are some sort of pushovers that we should walk through them with some sort of blitzkrieg football, yet they have the tightest defence in the league statistically for a reason. Other than the 0-3 vs City, they've held their own in every game against the 'usual Top 4 sides' ie. Chelsea Arsenal, us etc.

They parked the bus, our defence had a brain lapse moment, they scored. I'm not sure how they 'played us off the pitch' as so many seem to be saying. That's not saying we couldn't be better, and some of LVG's decisions were odd, but the degree of overreaction here on the caf after a loss is amazing.

They had one more shot than we did. He must realise that playing ADM up front was a disaster. He needed to have him running at their defence to make them back off. Rooney should not be in midfield.

 

[TheLoveless]

Before the knee jerks floods this thread completely...

Am I concerned about our run of poor form in the new year? Yes.

Am I concerned about the style of play? Yes

Am I going to lose it? No. We are still in good position to finish with CL qualification this year, as was the target that most of us have at the start of the season.

Southampton came with a clear plan, and they executed it to perfection.

If any of Di Maria's touches was better in the 1st half, and Mata actually finished some of the chances on his plate, it would be a different outcome.

Today's match was just one of those days.

Agree with this. The only players to I thought lived up to their standards was Valencia and Blind.

That said, one reason they did not live up to their standards might well be the formation.

 

[finneh]

Lost 1 game in 11 against a team who have the best defence in the league who came for a draw. Yes their were clear problems- mainly how slow we looked up front but deary me its not as bad as were making out.

True enough but now comes the real test for Van Gaal. He's had the time to assess the squad and implement his "philosophy", he no longer has injuries as an excuse for the system or poor performances and has a run of games coming up that are winnable. We don't play anyone in the top six for the next 7 Premier League games and I'd expect 17 points. If he gets 10-11 as Moyes did at this time last season then I'd expect the fans to start getting equally impatient.

 

[Snow]

True enough but now comes the real test for Van Gaal. He's had the time to assess the squad and implement his "philosophy", he no longer has injuries as an excuse for the system or poor performances and has a run of games coming up that are winnable. We don't play anyone in the top six for the next 7 Premier League games and I'd expect 17 points. If he gets 10-11 as Moyes did at this time last season then I'd expect the fans to start getting equally impatient.

Just to be clear, 17 points isn't possible. I assume you mean either 16 or 18 points.

 

[finneh]

Just to be clear, 17 points isn't possible. I assume you mean either 16 or 18 points.

From 7 games? Seems perfectly possible to me. 5 wins and 2 draws.

 

[Golden Nugget]

• Fair enough to start Rooney in midfield and Di Maria up front in my opinion even though it baffled me - but when it was clear it wasn't working, I am unsure why the switch wasn't made.

• Dull, dull game. Southampton didn't deserve to win, but United didn't either. They were the better, and more organized team, so if there was to be a winner, it should have been them I guess.

• I don't even know how we let Tadic play that pass to Pelle for the build up to that goal. We had 3 players around him, yet he was allowed to make the pass, and not a single player on Pelle.

• Can't recall the 3rd chance van Gaal mentioned, but Mata definitely should have scored the one from 5 yards. Wasn't the best game from him, but at least he did show glimpses, unlike the others.

• I'm not sure if it is the opposition, or the way we are set up, but we are always been forced playing out wide. Even for the Mata chance, Mata broke through the centre, but one of the players (Herrera I think?) plays it back out wide to Blind. I know the middle was compacted, but they are forcing us out wide a lot of the times - when it is obvious that it is our weakness. In this case, Blind played in some lovely balls, but more often than not, Young or Valencia hits gives it back to them.

• If Januzaj and Falcao really were fit and van Gaal chose to have 3 centre backs on the bench and Wilson ahead of Falcao, then van Gaal has really screwed up. Having the 3 centre backs on the bench is stupid in any game, and Wilson ahead of Falcao is crazy; yes, he is a young and up and coming striker with a lot of potential, in a game against a team near the bottom, I might have understood it; but to drop him on selection issues against a team that is 4th, and played better than us a few weeks ago, it's crazy, and its a gamble that just didn't come off.

• I remember when Hiddink coached the Australian National Team, he said his backline would be dependent on the opposing team; if they had 2 strikers, they he would play 3 centre backs, if they had 1 striker, then 2 centre backs. Against Southampton we played with 3 despite Southampton having 1 striker; when it was obvious that they were sitting back, we kept with the 3 centre backs instead of moving Blind to midfield.

• On a positive note, Blind had a decent game for a player who hasn't blame for so long; Valencia was also very good.

• Smalling had a good game also, but it's not going to be long before referees take a closer look at his defending at set pieces. There too much grabbing and shirt pulling during corners and free kicks (it's not only him, but he seems to be the main culprit) and it's not going to be long till a penalty is awarded against us for this.

• I've seen a bit of criticism for Carrick- while I do agree that this was the worst I've seen him play, but something had worried me for a while and Koeman saw this and took advantage of it. Our midfield consists of Carrick-Gap-Gap- Rooney + Mata. Carrick was never a runner,and thrives on someone being next to him, or at least near him. When I saw the line up, I was excited that Blind and Carrick were playing, as I thought Blind would partner him brilliantly, until my friend told me that the commentator said Blind was playing as a centre back. Carrick was pressured and wasn't allowed to play the way he usually shines in, and that effected him greatly (which in result, effected the way United play)

• These pre-planned substitutions piss me off. You can never predict how a match goes and you need to adapt to the needs.

• The point that worries me the most - while Sir Alex did usually have the same game plan for most games, there would be alterations in our system (they may not have been very clear, but they were there) to attack their weaknesses, e.g. having Park/Welbeck man-marking Makelele, Alonso, etc., having Ronaldo switch wings to run at their slow fullback. I haven't seen that much this season, (I can only recall Arsenal, where I felt we were lucky that Arsenal couldn't finish and De Gea was great). It seems like it's going to be the same tactics and formation each game, because we're Manchester United and we haven't lost for 10 games. It's still early for van Gaal, but I hope he won't continue to show this mentality in the long run.

• My last point, in an attempt to be positive, despite us going on a 10 match unbeaten run, it was clear to most that we played poorly, and in some matches, were lucky to win (or not lose). The defeat to Southampton is probably the worst possible outcome, as it puts us behind them in 4th, and we have now gone 3 games without a win in the Premier League. Looking at this positively, most players have now returned, so hopefully we do go back to 4 at the back, and build some confidence and get victories over QPR and Leicester (as well as Cambridge) to build some confidence in the away game at West Ham. This can enable us to gain some momentum against the winnable sides in February, to prepare for the tough fixtures in March and April.

 

[Red_Aaron]

cant begrudge soton the result given the mugging we carried out at their place, on a positive note we at least played better yesterday than we did the last time we played them. Soton are the real deal i reckon, they've not been overawed by any of the big teams and they're gonna fight for a CL place to the end so us and arsenal need to beware

i agree with the general point about our possession being far too passive but we have to accept that possession is everything to LVG and this style will continue. i also think the players held the formation well yesterday and i don't see 352 being scrapped anytime soon no matter how much we cry out for it. compared to the beginning of the season we're defending better but we've lost out spark up top, it'll return but we're still looking for the right balance from our forwards and a big name or two will eventually have to miss out i feel.

what let us down yesterday was poor final ball and poor finishing. i actually thought we played well in the first half. after the manic first 5 we settled down and played our way out confidently from the back and created a good couple of openings, half time was a blessing for soton as the goal was coming i felt.

second half soton got a goal out of our only mistake really and it was then disrupted by the changes. i'm not sure why LVG made the subs he did but he's clearly obsessed with his idea of match fitness and i'm sure taking off Shaw and ADM was always on the cards regardless of the scoreline which i just cant agree with. Even the taking off of RVP, who wasn't playing well, was odd as he's still your best bet if you present him with a chance (he'd have buried at least one of Matas') SAF would've never changed those 2 players if he was in a losing position especially given the only bench option was Fellaini. switching ADM and Rooney would've made much more sense but then what do i know?

the last few games have seen us lose the little gap we'd made ourselves and we're back in a fight now. QPR are no pushovers at home but we need to bounce back with a win as soon as poss

 

[World Game]

They came to hit us on the counter. The goal wasn't luck IMO. It was well deserved.

We dominated possession while being absolutely impotent and unimaginative in the extreme. That's not playing much better than them.

The fact that they had to resort to the counter is an indication that we were the better team. Even when they managed to win the ball back, they struggled to keep it. On another day when Mata doesn't fluff those chances and a certain other individual isn't as atrociously wasteful, the result would've been our way.

 

[Insanity]

"The other team didn't come to win", is one of the stupidest things that managers say after losing. VG, Jose, Brendan - are all guilty of it.

 

[Varun]

"The other team didn't come to win", is one of the stupidest things that managers say after losing. VG, Jose, Brendan - are all guilty of it.

Why is it a stupid thing to say?

 

[Sarni]

Why is it a stupid thing to say?

Because they fecking won.

 

[Sarni]

The fact that they had to resort to the counter is an indication that we were the better team. Even when they managed to win the ball back, they struggled to keep it. On another day when Mata doesn't fluff those chances and a certain other individual isn't as atrociously wasteful, the result would've been our way.

No, it shows that they had a plan and it turned out to be the winning plan. They probably noticed after about 30 minutes that we are not creating much so decided to absorb the long balls and wait for their opportunity, which resulted in a goal. Worst case scenario it would have ended 0-0, we were not going to score.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Because they fecking won.

Also, until Southampton actually scored, we hadn't come to win the game either.

 

[Insanity]

Why is it a stupid thing to say?

Sarni answered for me.