I think the main problem with that Leicester game was the defence. A partnership of Blackett and Evans with Rojo at left back.
How good is our squad, really?
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I think the main problem with that Leicester game was the defence. A partnership of Blackett and Evans with Rojo at left back.
A post of the day candidate.
To amplify just a few points, our CBs have shown great progress over the last two months and I believe can succeed in a back four (with the exception of Evans). The complication here is the absence of Rafael and Shaw, which may gave a greater effect on Louis's thinking than most of us appreciate. Have the two played more than 1 or 2 full 90 minute matches all season? I doubt it.
Master Wayne absolutely must be played in his natural 10 role. We build from there.
Agree with everything except for the RVP part.We need a replacement for him soon (though not necessarily this January or next summer).He'll be 32 next season.We also need a replacement for Carrick soon enough although I hope Pearson will be the one.
Our squad makes it very difficult to put out a squad that suits all 11 players.
GK - De Gea is one of the best in the world.
CB - no one has stood up and made the position their own.
FB - Rafael and Shaw have their season repeatedly interrupted by injury.
WB - Valencia and Young have been available and decent enough. Young isn't trusted yet to play in a back four, while Valencia has been trusted. Neither seems capable of being a winger at the level we would require of them.
MF - Herrera, Di Maria, Fellaini, Carrick, and Blind are fine as long as we don't have one player covering for three of the more attack minded players. Rooney and Mata do not fit in at all in my opinion. Rooney just isn't a midfielder and we just don't play in a way that suits Mata. Too many of these players have one role they play well and then underperform in any other role. An all around midfielder like Strootman seems badly needed to provide balance.
Wingers - Januzaj is the only one, so we haven't played with wingers much. We need more wingers if we are to transition to 4-3-3
Striker - Lots of big names, but reputation doesn't put balls in the net. RvP is aging badly, Falcao just hasn't recovered enough from his injury, Wilson is young and learning, Rooney hasn't been trusted in his best position. We need wingers to make a one striker system work or a fast striker to make a two striker system work.
A major issue with the squad is that we only have the personnel for a 4-4-2 diamond or a 3-5-2/5-3-2 and our wide players just aren't easily interchangeable for the two systems. Shaw and Rafael look very uncomfortable when asked to play as wingbacks and Young isn't trusted to play as a fullback. This leaves us with a problem, because Shaw and Rafael haven't been consistently available to settle on a diamond and 3-5-2 looks toothless with Young absent.
We just don't have the squad to consistently put together a coherent team at this point. It would be difficult with everyone healthy and is impossible with our injury issues.
GK - De Gea is one of the best in the world.
CB - no one has stood up and made the position their own.
FB - Rafael and Shaw have their season repeatedly interrupted by injury.
WB - Valencia and Young have been available and decent enough. Young isn't trusted yet to play in a back four, while Valencia has been trusted. Neither seems capable of being a winger at the level we would require of them.
MF - Herrera, Di Maria, Fellaini, Carrick, and Blind are fine as long as we don't have one player covering for three of the more attack minded players. Rooney and Mata do not fit in at all in my opinion. Rooney just isn't a midfielder and we just don't play in a way that suits Mata. Too many of these players have one role they play well and then underperform in any other role. An all around midfielder like Strootman seems badly needed to provide balance.
Wingers - Januzaj is the only one, so we haven't played with wingers much. We need more wingers if we are to transition to 4-3-3
Striker - Lots of big names, but reputation doesn't put balls in the net. RvP is aging badly, Falcao just hasn't recovered enough from his injury, Wilson is young and learning, Rooney hasn't been trusted in his best position. We need wingers to make a one striker system work or a fast striker to make a two striker system work.
A major issue with the squad is that we only have the personnel for a 4-4-2 diamond or a 3-5-2/5-3-2 and our wide players just aren't easily interchangeable for the two systems. Shaw and Rafael look very uncomfortable when asked to play as wingbacks and Young isn't trusted to play as a fullback. This leaves us with a problem, because Shaw and Rafael haven't been consistently available to settle on a diamond and 3-5-2 looks toothless with Young absent.
We just don't have the squad to consistently put together a coherent team at this point. It would be difficult with everyone healthy and is impossible with our injury issues.
I thought when we played Blind, Herrera, and Di Maria in the beginning of the season in midfield there was a lot of balance. But then Van Gaal has somehwo since begun to play Rooney and Mata in midfield with Carrick and started doing this very weird and stubborn thing of trying to fit in as many of the stars into the XI as he can (RVP, Falcao, Mata, Rooney).
Falcao and RvP's legs have gone and from what we've seen this season they are seriously no longer good enough. Honestly, if you isolate the performances from the names on their jersey, you might just be terrified and appalled by some of their performances. They are simply living on past reputation and are no longer good enough for us.
If we drop both of them, play Rooney up front, bringing in that Blind, Herrera, Di Maria midfield that was showing a lot of balance and promise from the beginning of the season I think we can start heading in the right direction. There was a lot of promise in the early stages of this season, but we've been atrocious in terms of chance creation for a while now.
Don't even want to get into the discussion of defence as that's a minefield of problems on its own.
I think the key was missing Carrick, and injuries to defenders not allowing us to have a consistent back line more so than the system early on in the season.
Its hard to tell. Player for player, we might very well have the strongest squad in the league, but we haven't clicked yet.
If LVG just stopped playing 352, stopped playing players out of position and stopped rotating so much, we might have started to seen our true potential.
If LVG just stopped playing 352, stopped playing players out of position and stopped rotating so much, we might have started to seen our true potential.
I would go with what @Brophs and @noodlehair said in their posts earlier in this thread.
The few things I differ on:
(1) Fellaini - he looks as good as an option can for a team that hoofs the ball a lot. Should not be an option for a team looking to become a free-flowing, world-class team. I would replace him with Schneiderlin at the first instance. The good thing is that his current good form for a hoof ball United should increase his value from last summer.
(2) Shaw - I think he has looked good in his limited appearances. In fact, I would say one of our better defenders. His lack of fitness and the manager's insistence on using him as LWB as holding him back the moment.
(3) Blind: He is a very good squad player, nothing more. The new John O'Shea, but better. Which is not a bad thing at all.
(4) Rojo : Looks a terrible defender to me. The only reedeming quality he has is his OTT enthusiam. Another Buttner, albeit cost 5 times more.
All in all, we are an unbalanced squad which currently looks confused by the manager's tactics and "philosophy". Playing with defenders who are not ball playing, with no midfield, and a dsyfunctional set of attackers in incorrect positons seems preposterous to me. Baffling that Rooney gets played in the middle when we have actual midfielders sitting on the bench. If Di Maria is not played as part of the midfield, then it would be better to grant him his summer wish and move to PSG.
£220 spent post Sir Alex and we are ways aways from a world class squad, just barely good enough for a top 4 finish. The scary part is that I don't have any confidence in our CEO and the manager to get it right with another £220m.
The few things I differ on:
(1) Fellaini - he looks as good as an option can for a team that hoofs the ball a lot. Should not be an option for a team looking to become a free-flowing, world-class team. I would replace him with Schneiderlin at the first instance. The good thing is that his current good form for a hoof ball United should increase his value from last summer.
(2) Shaw - I think he has looked good in his limited appearances. In fact, I would say one of our better defenders. His lack of fitness and the manager's insistence on using him as LWB as holding him back the moment.
(3) Blind: He is a very good squad player, nothing more. The new John O'Shea, but better. Which is not a bad thing at all.
(4) Rojo : Looks a terrible defender to me. The only reedeming quality he has is his OTT enthusiam. Another Buttner, albeit cost 5 times more.
All in all, we are an unbalanced squad which currently looks confused by the manager's tactics and "philosophy". Playing with defenders who are not ball playing, with no midfield, and a dsyfunctional set of attackers in incorrect positons seems preposterous to me. Baffling that Rooney gets played in the middle when we have actual midfielders sitting on the bench. If Di Maria is not played as part of the midfield, then it would be better to grant him his summer wish and move to PSG.
£220 spent post Sir Alex and we are ways aways from a world class squad, just barely good enough for a top 4 finish. The scary part is that I don't have any confidence in our CEO and the manager to get it right with another £220m.
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We've struggled to contain teams in any other formation.
We're setting up to not get beat and it's been fairly effective so far.
Ok it's dull and tumescent at times but it has strengthened our defensive resolve and given how inconsistent team selections have had to be, it's a miracle we've been so solid. We might be able to play the diamond with better defensive ability once we get a settled unit at the back but frustrating as it is I will take the draws and scrappy wins over exciting losses just now.
Balance is something Van Gaal states we lack and it's true, in the 4-4-2 we are prone to leaving spaces to be exploited and in the 3-5-2 we lack penetration. We are simply lacking the personnel to play either formation effectively.
We need either a box to box hard hitter or a ball playing CB to balance the formations out so in the mean time we are sacrificing cutting edge for solidity, hoping to wear teams down physically and find a way to win. The loss of Young at WB has made life very difficult for the 3-5-2 and let's not be fooled by the manager switching to 4-4-2 against QPR as a sign of things to come, it coincided with the injury to Evans.
The manager I feel, has found this league exactly as the prophet Rogers described, it's extremely tough, every game is a battle and we simply cannot afford to go gung ho even against supposed cannon fodder. Mentally we've shown how prone we are to collapse on a few occasions so maybe the managers choice to keep things tight now will pay dividends, after all, we only now have the full squad to choose from.
We could try 4-2-3-1 but Blind and Carrick lack any great pace and we could find ourselves just as exposed as 4-4-2
The squad we have is a very good one, it's up there with the best squads in the league, probably has more strength in depth than just about any side.
It still requires work though, especially if we're to adjust to the continental style of the managers.
I agree that it isn't all Moyes fault; but also feel a large portion of our current problems are due to our failures in the transfer market last season. It was clear Summer 2013 that we needed a couple of central midfielders, a LB and probably a quality winger. Moyes didn't resolve any of these issues. This meant that at the start of this Summer due to an aging squad we probably needed: 2 central defenders, 2 central midfielders, 2 left backs and a quality winger. This is a hell of a lot to address in one window, particularly as the majority had to be first choice regulars, rather than just squad players.
Moyes' or Woodwards' failure to address any of our squad weaknesses last year has meant that we've had to go on an all out spending spree last Summer, which compounded the problems we had. Imagine if Shaw, Blind and Herrera had come in last Summer and already integrated with the squad. I think we'd be looking at a team far more accomplished team.
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Agree with the last two paragraphs, we seem to lack a clear direction as to how we want to shape the squad. I mean, it's really difficult to tell who we are building the team around when you're playing your best players out of position.
Disagree on 3) - Unless we get a world class CM in the mould of Pogba, Thiago etc. Blind is definitely good enough for us. In terms of performances this season thus far he has been one of our better players.
Disagree with 4 as well - Again maybe not a world class defender yet like Thiago Silva, Hummels etc. Rojo is certaintly good enough for us for the time being. Let him settle.
Yep, we are two or three players away from being title contenders again. It’s amazing what impact the right player(s) can have in a team, look at City, Chelsea and Liverpool as perfect examples.
Yeah..... ok we now based players world class ability on a few poor games played out of position in a struggling team and inclusing injuries.
The guy had a world class 2014, he didn't just become a poor player just becasue he just came back from injury.
Great point. We should consider Leicester game in two parts - before the penalty and after penalty. Before the penalty it was a brilliant performance from us with a lot of offensive fluidity and it looked like it was going to be another cruise a week after 4-0 win over QPR, I honestly expected us to get a goal or two more and properly hammer them. After dubious penalty they got most of the 50/50 decisions going their way and equalizer came soon after at which point we collapsed completely. It was a mental block plus lack of experience in defence, Blackett and Rojo cost us big time in that game. Put an experienced back four in that game and it would have been 5-1 to us because offensively we were great.
I think there's a lot of quality in the squad in terms of individuals. But the reason we're in this squad is because of absolutely awful succession planning (not talking Fergie to Moyes here).
Evra, Rio and Vidic should've been phased out a lot sooner but we did absolutely nothing about it. Evra was underwhelming for years at LB, but we didn't do anything at all about it. We just let our starting defense get older, with no effort at all to try and replace them.
Midfield we neglected for donkeys and failed to do anything about it even when we were light on midfielders - apart from call back a retired Scholes. I haven't even got a clue what we were doing with Anderson. We've only tried to move him on once literally every single other club in world football had realised he is absolutely shit and now have to let him go on a free.
We bought a 29 year old Van Persie just one season after a much younger Aguero was available for slightly more. We've been incredibly reactive in the last few years rather than actually looking forward and anticipating problems.
Evra, Rio and Vidic should've been phased out a lot sooner but we did absolutely nothing about it. Evra was underwhelming for years at LB, but we didn't do anything at all about it. We just let our starting defense get older, with no effort at all to try and replace them.
Midfield we neglected for donkeys and failed to do anything about it even when we were light on midfielders - apart from call back a retired Scholes. I haven't even got a clue what we were doing with Anderson. We've only tried to move him on once literally every single other club in world football had realised he is absolutely shit and now have to let him go on a free.
We bought a 29 year old Van Persie just one season after a much younger Aguero was available for slightly more. We've been incredibly reactive in the last few years rather than actually looking forward and anticipating problems.
Indeed. There's this weird thing going on where people were happy to be proved right when they moaned that Moyes was no good and everyone eventually agreed with them, and now they cant help but start doing it again.
We have most parts of the jigsaw at the moment, but we're still missing a few. We also need an upgrade in experience and class at CB. That's not the kind of wholesale doom and gloom people go on about.
I agree about the defence. I think we have a bunch of defenders who are good enough- or have potential to be very good. The problem I suppose is that they keep hoofing the ball and therefore we look shit in terms of building from the back. But is the lack of passing options in midfield really their fault? I don’t think so. I think that’s the problem with playing strikers in midfield (Rooney and Mata) instead of actual midfielders. Herrera is a player that could help, with his movement and quick short passing, but he tends to lose the ball every now and then so it seems he’s not trusted by van Gaal (the same applies to Di Maria in midfield). Maybe Blind could help in that regard too, but he’s being thrown around the pitch (on a side note, the theory about specialized wingbacks is dead for me, as we’ve been using two completely opposite kind of players there).
One thing about Mata is that his lack of defensive contribution is kind of a problem if we play Di Maria in midfield (that’s why I would rather play Rooney or Herrera at the tip). Mata’s formation is 4-2-3-1.
Agreed.
That’s unfair on Fellaini, I think he is having positive impact on the team in many aspects.
Regarding Blind, that’s ridiculous. So far he’s been our best player this season and most constistent too, despite being used in many different positions. That’s an excellent signing.
That’s right, just look at Madrid right now- Bale, James, Isco, Modric, Kroos, Illara, Carvajal, Varane all have been brought in the last 3 years, now they are core of the team. Most of their purchases turn out to be very good, you can’t say that about us really.
I think Blind is a good player, one of our better signings as you say. I just don't think he is a replacement for Carrick.
I don't think he'll get a lot better. You can struggle with the physicallity of the league, but he seems like a poor defender overall. Hoping to be proven wrong though.
i hear ya. but getting another injured player in the window to me is not "doable". plus we've got thinkers in midf , slow of foot but thinkers. adding another at this time would not be a priority and playing a slow lb in blind is not a great idea.
How good is our squad? Fergie probably looking at the squad and thinking title number 21 would be in the bag in May, if he was in charge.
I think we are on the same song sheet.
I get that point completely, but Strootman is more than a thinker. The dude is pretty tough in the tackle too, although he's also got the anticipation and vision of Carrick. He slide ruled a perfect low bending cross last week to Totti that would have given Beckham a respectable hard on. The point of Strootman now wouldn't be to salvage a season which is dangerously on the knife's edge right now (the peril is great,my friends), but to bed him in for next season. His recovery is going well and he seems to be on track to achieve full recovery over the next two months. But he does seem to have it in him already to make a difference against clubs we should be destroying but are finding it difficult to break down, such as QPR.
Carrick can carry us through to the end of this season. And while I'm confident he has one more season left in him, I doubt that it's more than one season. I have no confidence in Fellaini as a holding mid and I just don't see Blind in the class of midfielder as Strootman. And if Strootman were to arrive as advertised we've suddenly got tons of tactical options that we just don't have now.
But it may be true that RB is a more pressing need right now -- and I do endorse a deal for Coleman, who plays for a club whose European ambitions have been shoveled into the incinerator. With only a tiny bit of jest, I'm starting to forget what Rafael (love him, but WTF?) looks like.
This would be my view on it aswell. We've been forced, and perhaps still are forced, to play catch-up with our transfers. I think that we're just about reaching the stage now where most of the holes in the squad have been filled, which means that we can start working alot more on shaping and strenghtening our starting eleven which is miles away from where it should be if we want to be a top team in europe again.
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Our squad is holding our squad back. Too many big name players to accommodate. Look at Southampton, a well drilled team with no superstar players just a bunch of hard working good players who buy into the managers ideas and they're 3rd.
Poor excuse though, really. LVG ought to be able to work out how best to utilise the squad at his disposal. How's does the saying go.....''It's a nice problem to have......''
LVG needs to make the tough decisions he's paid to make. If that means an unhappy 'superstar' or three, so be it!
I'm not sure any manager could possibly do that given the vast amount of injuries we've had and how unbalanced we are in certain areas.Poor excuse though, really. LVG ought to be able to work out how best to utilise the squad at his disposal. How's does the saying go.....''It's a nice problem to have......''
LVG needs to make the tough decisions he's paid to make. If that means an unhappy 'superstar' or three, so be it!
Hell, Guardiola struggled to figure out how to utilise Bayern properly in his first season there when trying to adapt his tactics, and look at their squad.
''Too many big name players to accommodate'' - my reply was in response to this statement.
Anyhow, He's a big name manager, I think he should be able to sort it out, if he's as good as he thinks he is and as good as his reputation suggests. I'm not putting a time on it though.....I have faith he'll get it right, I really do.
After watching Liverpool make 352 look like a festival of attacking football, en route to dominating the best team in the league you have to wonder what the hell is going on at United.
If the formation's not the problem and our squad is as superior to Liverpool's as many people think, what the hell is our problem? Let's not forget that this far into Rodgers debut season was when Liverpool started smashing teams, left right and centre.
If the formation's not the problem and our squad is as superior to Liverpool's as many people think, what the hell is our problem? Let's not forget that this far into Rodgers debut season was when Liverpool started smashing teams, left right and centre.
Is it really too simplistic to think the third best footballer in the world was a very large part of that? We've nobody like Suarez. He was the key, as we are seeing this year.
oh, and pace, Pool had/have shitloads of pace, we have ... erm ... Di Maria?
Your squad isn't as good as many people think! And while I wouldn't say our squad is perfectly balanced, the 15 or so decent/good/great players that we have all fit together very well which is something that cannot be said about the good players that you have in your squad.
You do have to remember that was a cup semi-final against a team Liverpool fans hate. So they were really up for it. It's not going to be quite that quick every game.
However I think it's mainly a fitness thing. Spurs, Southampton, Liverpool and Chelsea having great fitness this season and it's helped in recent weeks (except for the fact Mourinho chooses almost never to rotate).
We signed the most expensive footballer in the history of the Premier League last summer. Be nice if he was even vaguely "like Sanchez".
Anyway, Sanchez didn't play tonight. Noe did he play in the opening games of last season when Liverpool continued the form of the season before. This season, it's lack of cover for Sturridge that really fecked them over IMO. If our squad is as good as I keep hearing why on earth are we playing so badly?
Sanchez?
Also it's only 3pm here and I didn't realise there was a game on 'tonight', it's all still very confusing. I was wondering what the hell you were referring to there! I'll take your word on it though.
EDIT: I agree about Sturridge though, that's fair.
He was a large part of it, but yes, it is too simplistic. Sturridge...
Also, when there were threads about the top ten players in the world after Di Maria signed for you, he featured in most lists often even in the top five.
Yes, Sanchez!
(I mean, Suarez. I've been drinking. It's the evening here, honest)
(I mean, Suarez. I've been drinking. It's the evening here, honest)
One of the main problems is that we often seem to be playing fairly non-committal, possession based football when we're using 3-5-2, passing to the back three a lot more often than we should be. We seem to be much more attacking once we switch to four at the back, like in the game against QPR.
Sure, but let's face it, Di Maria is not as good as Suarez, nor is he as influential and productive.
But yeah, as I edited above, Sturridge is also a big factor.
At the moment it's an unbalanced mess that is not being used to its full potential by a manager who is shoehorning players into his favoured formation.
This, unsurprisingly, has resulted in a disjointed team that shows flashes of brilliance but more often than not playing some of the most dire football you'll see from one of Europe's top clubs.
This, unsurprisingly, has resulted in a disjointed team that shows flashes of brilliance but more often than not playing some of the most dire football you'll see from one of Europe's top clubs.