How good is our squad, really?

[Pogue Mahone]

One of the main problems is that we often seem to be playing fairly non-committal, possession based football when we're using 3-5-2, passing to the back three a lot more often than we should be. We seem to be much more attacking once we switch to four at the back, like in the game against QPR.

This is spot on. Although whenever we try and play more attacking football we can't defend for shit.

Something is really wrong with United right now. Either our training need an overhaul (tactics, organisation, fitness, whatever) or our manager has no idea how to pick a team and organise them on matchday or our squad is deeply flawed.

For all our sake, I hope it's the latter because the other two options don't bear thinking about.

 

[Cheesy]

This is spot on. Although whenever we try and play more attacking football we can't defend for shit.

Something is really wrong with United right now. Either our training need an overhaul (tactics, organisation, fitness, whatever) or our manager has no idea how to pick a team and organise them on matchday or our squad is deeply flawed.

For all our sake, I hope it's the latter because the other two options don't bear thinking about.

We need...Mike Phelan!

 

[bucky]

This is spot on. Although whenever we try and play more attacking football we can't defend for shit.

Something is really wrong with United right now. Either our training need an overhaul (tactics, organisation, fitness, whatever) or our manager has no idea how to pick a team and organise them on matchday or our squad is deeply flawed.

For all our sake, I hope it's the latter because the other two options don't bear thinking about.

Mark van Bommel said about van Gaal that he's a good coach, but a weird person. Various other players have praised van Gaal for his tactics and work on the training pitch, while they didn't enjoy his personality. I really don't think it's the former and more of the latter, as you say. We are still mostly a work in progress, but I don't get why our team can't go through a difficult spell during the season. Van Gaal and his signings are still adapting to the league, we've had too many injuries and our squad is as you say flawed, which isn't exactly news. Even if we carry on with 3-5-2, I'm confident that we'll be in the top 4. Sooner or later he'll change the formation, since it's really not his preferred formation, even though he's says the formation is not important. If Strootman would have been fit for the WC, the Netherlands wouldn't have played 3-5-2 and if we bring in more players and move some others on, we'll see the change.

 

[RedFish]

Mark van Bommel said about van Gaal that he's a good coach, but a weird person. Various other players have praised van Gaal for his tactics and work on the training pitch, while they didn't enjoy his personality. I really don't think it's the former and more of the latter, as you say. We are still mostly a work in progress, but I don't get why our team can't go through a difficult spell during the season. Van Gaal and his signings are still adapting to the league, we've had too many injuries and our squad is as you say flawed, which isn't exactly news. Even if we carry on with 3-5-2, I'm confident that we'll be in the top 4. Sooner or later he'll change the formation, since it's really not his preferred formation, even though he's says the formation is not important. If Strootman would have been fit for the WC, the Netherlands wouldn't have played 3-5-2 and if we bring in more players and move some others on, we'll see the change.

fingers crossed!

 

[gasmanc]

Mark van Bommel said about van Gaal that he's a good coach, but a weird person. Various other players have praised van Gaal for his tactics and work on the training pitch, while they didn't enjoy his personality. I really don't think it's the former and more of the latter, as you say. We are still mostly a work in progress, but I don't get why our team can't go through a difficult spell during the season. Van Gaal and his signings are still adapting to the league, we've had too many injuries and our squad is as you say flawed, which isn't exactly news. Even if we carry on with 3-5-2, I'm confident that we'll be in the top 4. Sooner or later he'll change the formation, since it's really not his preferred formation, even though he's says the formation is not important. If Strootman would have been fit for the WC, the Netherlands wouldn't have played 3-5-2 and if we bring in more players and move some others on, we'll see the change.

Good post.
Don't agree it's more of the latter though, very good coach is fairly clear, he's got us back up from the floor despite everything, he's certainly an odd job though and I personally find it likeable.
We need to let him get his players in and see if he moves over to the 4-3-3 he's played with his best teams, until then I can stomach watching us grasp this 3-5-2 or whatever else keeps us in contention for CL.

 

[shabadu84]

Balance be damned, our best way to get 3 points in most matches is through attack-first. I think LVG is focusing too much on trying to build a perfect team out of what he has - due to ego - and isn't accepting that some of our players simply won't become world class overnight (or, likely, at all), no matter the formation or tactics. Just needs to take what he has at hand - world class attacking and goalkeeping options with serviceable midfielders and defenders - and play to those strengths. The 352 is LVG swinging the pendulum to overcompensate for the defensive issues when really we should just accept that as a part of our game which we won't be fixing in one season.

 

[RedFish]

Balance be damned, our best way to get 3 points in most matches is through attack-first. I think LVG is focusing too much on trying to build a perfect team out of what he has - due to ego - and isn't accepting that some of our players simply won't become world class overnight (or, likely, at all), no matter the formation or tactics. Just needs to take what he has at hand - world class attacking and goalkeeping options with serviceable midfielders and defenders - and play to those strengths. The 352 is LVG swinging the pendulum to overcompensate for the defensive issues when really we should just accept that as a part of our game which we won't be fixing in one season.

...food for thought. Maybe, he is being too risk adverse, and worse, egotistical. I think probably he's playing the percentage game....

 

[shabadu84]

...food for thought. Maybe, he is being too risk adverse, and worse, egotistical. I think probably he's playing the percentage game....

It was bad when Moyes did it, but you felt like that's what he knew best and you had to sympathize with the schlub. Play the safe game, put in those crosses over and over, and make it tough when defending. Rinse, repeat, pray.

With LVG doing similar, it feels worse because he should know better about his players and about what the fans want. I do hope it's just him trying to compensate, and not how he feels we should play usually. Still at least 17 more games to show us the progress Moyes never did.

 

[Brophs]

If you picked a PL XI would we have any players in it? Maybe de Gea and Di Maria? Beyond that I'm struggling.

 

[wonnie]

One of the main problems is that we often seem to be playing fairly non-committal, possession based football when we're using 3-5-2, passing to the back three a lot more often than we should be. We seem to be much more attacking once we switch to four at the back, like in the game against QPR.

We play 3-5-2 supposedly because of lack of fit fullbacks, but as you say that leads to aimlessly passing amongst the back three. Reality is that our backs are not Hummels, Pique, Alaba etc. Smalling and Jones are not comfortable with the ball at their feet for long periods and play hoof ball (Jones loves pumping it down the right flank, doesn't he?)

Only defender who seems comfortable and actually plays accurate forward passes is Rojo. Evans was good at it before but he has completely lost it recently. McNair is a prospect but still a rough around the edges.

Which leads me to the point that Carrick and Blind should be in the XI, players who are comfortable in possession but also capable of forming the basis for more committal, possession football. Now that we have both Blind and Carrick fit at the same time (for the first time this season, possibly?) I hope to see it.

 

[wonnie]

If you picked a PL XI would we have any players in it? Maybe de Gea and Di Maria? Beyond that I'm struggling.

Fair point, but outside of Chelsea and City, you've got teams like Southampton and Arsenal who have been able to play with a team without exceptional players that would get into a PL XI.

It certainly is a problem, but not the root cause of the problem IMO.

 

[Insanity]

If you picked a PL XI would we have any players in it? Maybe de Gea and Di Maria? Beyond that I'm struggling.

Will Di Maria be in it based on his performances for us so far? Sanchez and Hazard would occupy the wide areas.

It's a shame that we haven't given his talent a chance to excel in his prefered positions.

 

[ricky-romeo]

de gea= world class. definitely top 5 in his position. could be as high as second best.
valdes= great cover. massive experience.
lindegaard= too good to be number 3. a decent cover.

verdict= top class. alongside chelsea we've got the best pair of keepers and definitely up there amongts the best in europe. the only thing we need now is de gea signing his new contract. lindegaard will probably leaves soon but for the sake of his career, he should too.

rafael= at his best one of the best RB in the league. unfortunately got serious issue about his injuries.
smalling= probably our best natural defender. not the best on the ball though.
jones= good defender but erratic at times. decent player to have but i'll have him as our first choice back up at CB perhaps. injury prone like most of our players and at 22, still got time on his side.
evans= unlike jones, time is running out for evans. until last season he was our best ball playing CB but he even manages to lost it this season.
rojo= good player to have. typical tough south american defender. prone to one brainfart a game though. still when fit and playing is at least our 2nd best CB this season.
mcnair= young player who is doing well given the injury problems we've got at the back. not expecting him to be our first choice defender even in a few years time, but if he ends up doing so, he must be doing exceptionally well.
blackett= same as mcnair
shaw= 30 million and i expect him to be the league's best LB sooner rather than latter. need to play at LB and not LWB obviously. he will be class at LB.

verdict= a natural right back and a world class CB if we are talking about winning the league and competing as one of the best in europe. and a back 4 not a back 3 please. time to let evans go as well.

valencia= better than rafa as a wingback. definitely will keep him. good squad player at the very least.
carrick= english version of pirlo. should be able to play for us until his mid 30s
blind= good signing. being versatile is another plus point.
fellaini= one of the most improved player under van gaal. glad to see him doing ever so well.
di maria = please play him in midfield louis. he is world class there.
herrera= under the impression that van gaal is not the fondest on fan but herrera adds something to our midfield. we definitely look better going forward with him in the line up.
mata= decent stats of goals and assist but still short of performing as a 37million pound player imo.
januzaj= one of the disappointment of this season. definitely not a player for 3-5-2 and maybe a loan deal could help him a bit now.
young= got a new life under van gaal. wing back seems to suit him very much as he is okay defensively and playing there seems to have taken the pressure out of him to deliver offensively.
fletcher= sadly he is past it. a good servant. class player 2007-2010 but the illness has cost him his career.
Pereira= still not getting his chance even after series of fletcher's poor display..

verdict= the addition of herrera, blind and di maria improved our midfield, plus the improvement of fellaini of course. however we still lack at least another true top class midfielder imo. i also wish van gaal can stop playing rooney in midfield instead. maybe another top midfield signing will change this.

rooney= given rvp's poor form and falcao yet to hit full strides, it should be rooney plus one upfront imo.
rvp= almost undropable under LVG but he is a shadow of himself for more than a year now..
falcao= used to be world class. probably need a bit more time to get back to once he used to be, or maybe he is done. glad we got him on a year loan deal first. still want to see him succeed.
wilson= one for the future, got good pace and of course a decent finisher at under age level. still learning his trade at senior level but signs are looking good. given his age and experience being the 4th choice striker is a good thing for him.

verdict= lack the attacking pace of a great modern team. need someone who is a top wing forward.

overall=

4 signings, a RB, a CB, a CM and a WF. the lads loaned out are most likely to leave anyway (nani, cleverley, zaha, hernandez etc) plus players like fletcher, evans and lindegaard who i expect to play no further part once we got the new signings. i would like to see nani given another chance though..

at this moment we should be good enough to finish in the top 4. barring any very poor spells of course. most of the players are getting back to full fitness as well. so van gaal got no excuse whatsoever if we fail to qualify for the CL.

and next season we are hoping to see the team challenging for the league tittle.

 

[Litch]

It's a bit of a mess if we are to be honest, don't know about others but I have absolutely no idea what LVG plan is? Not sure if it's the system or if it's the players. If we play 442, there's going to be a lot of quality players sitting on the bench, and 352, there's going to be players playing out of position and we look so exposed at the back. The new signings are quality but have just given us more of an headache. it's a proper mess that looks like we are going to have to buy more players to fix. I can say if we were starting again, we would not have bought Shaw, Rojo or Herrera for starters.....

 

[DomesticTadpole]

de gea= world class. definitely top 5 in his position. could be as high as second best.
valdes= great cover. massive experience.
lindegaard= too good to be number 3. a decent cover.

verdict= top class. alongside chelsea we've got the best pair of keepers and definitely up there amongts the best in europe. the only thing we need now is de gea signing his new contract. lindegaard will probably leaves soon but for the sake of his career, he should too.

rafael= at his best one of the best RB in the league. unfortunately got serious issue about his injuries.
smalling= probably our best natural defender. not the best on the ball though.
jones= good defender but erratic at times. decent player to have but i'll have him as our first choice back up at CB perhaps. injury prone like most of our players and at 22, still got time on his side.
evans= unlike jones, time is running out for evans. until last season he was our best ball playing CB but he even manages to lost it this season.
rojo= good player to have. typical tough south american defender. prone to one brainfart a game though. still when fit and playing is at least our 2nd best CB this season.
mcnair= young player who is doing well given the injury problems we've got at the back. not expecting him to be our first choice defender even in a few years time, but if he ends up doing so, he must be doing exceptionally well.
blackett= same as mcnair
shaw= 30 million and i expect him to be the league's best LB sooner rather than latter. need to play at LB and not LWB obviously. he will be class at LB.

verdict= a natural right back and a world class CB if we are talking about winning the league and competing as one of the best in europe. and a back 4 not a back 3 please. time to let evans go as well.

valencia= better than rafa as a wingback. definitely will keep him. good squad player at the very least.
carrick= english version of pirlo. should be able to play for us until his mid 30s
blind= good signing. being versatile is another plus point.
fellaini= one of the most improved player under van gaal. glad to see him doing ever so well.
di maria = please play him in midfield louis. he is world class there.
herrera= under the impression that van gaal is not the fondest on fan but herrera adds something to our midfield. we definitely look better going forward with him in the line up.
mata= decent stats of goals and assist but still short of performing as a 37million pound player imo.
januzaj= one of the disappointment of this season. definitely not a player for 3-5-2 and maybe a loan deal could help him a bit now.
young= got a new life under van gaal. wing back seems to suit him very much as he is okay defensively and playing there seems to have taken the pressure out of him to deliver offensively.
fletcher= sadly he is past it. a good servant. class player 2007-2010 but the illness has cost him his career.
Pereira= still not getting his chance even after series of fletcher's poor display..

verdict= the addition of herrera, blind and di maria improved our midfield, plus the improvement of fellaini of course. however we still lack at least another true top class midfielder imo. i also wish van gaal can stop playing rooney in midfield instead. maybe another top midfield signing will change this.

rooney= given rvp's poor form and falcao yet to hit full strides, it should be rooney plus one upfront imo.
rvp= almost undropable under LVG but he is a shadow of himself for more than a year now..
falcao= used to be world class. probably need a bit more time to get back to once he used to be, or maybe he is done. glad we got him on a year loan deal first. still want to see him succeed.
wilson= one for the future, got good pace and of course a decent finisher at under age level. still learning his trade at senior level but signs are looking good. given his age and experience being the 4th choice striker is a good thing for him.

verdict= lack the attacking pace of a great modern team. need someone who is a top wing forward.

overall=

4 signings, a RB, a CB, a CM and a WF. the lads loaned out are most likely to leave anyway (nani, cleverley, zaha, hernandez etc) plus players like fletcher, evans and lindegaard who i expect to play no further part once we got the new signings. i would like to see nani given another chance though..

at this moment we should be good enough to finish in the top 4. barring any very poor spells of course. most of the players are getting back to full fitness as well. so van gaal got no excuse whatsoever if we fail to qualify for the CL.

and next season we are hoping to see the team challenging for the league tittle.

Reading your verdict about our squad, there are far too many players, who were the leftovers of previous squads, who are as you say backup standard. Backups to who though? Unfortunately for us they aren't backups, they are the first choice and that is the big problem.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Fair point, but outside of Chelsea and City, you've got teams like Southampton and Arsenal who have been able to play with a team without exceptional players that would get into a PL XI.

It certainly is a problem, but not the root cause of the problem IMO.

Sanchez would walk onto the first XI. The rest of the Arsenal squad have had a poor season but at least two or three of them would have had a shout in 2013/14.

Fair point about Southampton. They seem to have a manager who - like Fergie - can get a team to be more than the sum of its parts. There's no question our squad is better than theirs. It would be harsh if a slot couldn't be found for Schneiderlin in the league XI though.

As far as all the other top four contenders I don't think we have a single outfield player who's recently hit the heights of their best players. And not just under Van Gaal either. That would include last season too. Van Persie and Carrick aside (and at least one of them seems to be in terminal decline) it would probably include Fergie's last season as well.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

If we had drawn a list up about the players who needed shipping out at the start of the season it would have been as long as your arm. We have loaned a number of players out, who you now presume are goners. The problem now is that the ones who are left apart from Young, Valencia and Fellaini(who a lot wanted gone) have done themselves no favours. The new players have come into a squad that we have over estimated the quality of, which is making their attempts to settle even harder. It is easier going into a squad like City/Chelsea as they have a settled environment at this moment in time. We have just changed the manager/coaching staff, so it has made it even more difficult. This job is a lot bigger than any of us could have thought. He is going to have to replace a large part of the back 4, some of them will stay as backup, but that is all. If this season going seriously wrong, we might even go into next season with yet another new manager/coaching staff. Not great.

 

[Pexbo]

Sanchez would walk onto the first XI. The rest of the Arsenal squad have had a poor season but at least two or three of them would have had a shout in 2013/14.

Fair point about Southampton. They seem to have a manager who - like Fergie - can get a team to be more than the sum of its parts. There's no question our squad is better than theirs. It would be harsh if a slot couldn't be found for Schneiderlin in the league XI though.

As far as all the other top four contenders I don't think we have a single outfield player who's recently hit the heights of their best players. And not just under Van Gaal either. That would include last season too. Van Persie and Carrick aside (and at least one of them seems to be in terminal decline) it would probably include Fergie's last season as well.

To be fair to Southampton, they've got some individuals whose profile would be a lot higher if, ironically, they didn't play for Southampton.

Schneiderlin, Pelle, Tadic, Clyne and Wanyama are all good players who, if Southampton don't make UCL this year they might struggle to keep.

They're obviously no Rooney, Di Maria, Mata or Falcao's as far as profile goes but they're top players who could do a job at any club.

 

[ricky-romeo]

Reading your verdict about our squad, there are far too many players, who were the leftovers of previous squads, who are as you say backup standard. Backups to who though? Unfortunately for us they aren't backups, they are the first choice and that is the big problem.

that's why i believe we still need 4 more signings, and at least 3 of them should go straight away into our starting line up.

the team we've got at this moment should be good enough to qualify for next season's CL, and if van gaal fails to do so, he simply has to go.

 

[finneh]

If you picked a PL XI would we have any players in it? Maybe de Gea and Di Maria? Beyond that I'm struggling.

That may be the case but would Arsenal have anyone except Sanchez? Would Liverpool have anyone full stop? Both doubtful. I think that's why no-one is expecting us to come 2nd this year, but 3rd should be easily within our reach.

At the moment it'd be full of Chelsea/City player's with Di Maria, Sanchez and De Gea (Hazard, Fabregas, Matic, Aguero, Azpilicueta, Cahill, Kompany, Zabaleta).

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That may be the case but would Arsenal have anyone except Sanchez? Would Liverpool have anyone full stop? Both doubtful. I think that's why no-one is expecting us to come 2nd this year, but 3rd should be easily within our reach.

At the moment it'd be full of Chelsea/City player's with Di Maria, Sanchez and De Gea (Hazard, Fabregas, Matic, Aguero, Azpilicueta, Cahill, Kompany, Zabaleta).

Actually, the best XI thing is a bit odd as there are some positions where you can only use one player, which means leaving out players who have blatantly been among the very best around. If you extent it to a PL squad of 22 players and look at overall performances from the last three seasons (which is plenty of time to assess the true worth of a squad) I think Liverpool and Arsenal would both have at least two or three players in that squad, arguably more.

How many would United have? De Gea, definitely. After him we'd be in trouble. RvP and Carrick were great three seasons ago but their age and more recent form would probably keep them out. No chance would Di Maria make that squad. Not unless we're considering form from a different league. Which would be barmy.

 

[wonnie]

To be fair to Southampton, they've got some individuals whose profile would be a lot higher if, ironically, they didn't play for Southampton.

Schneiderlin, Pelle, Tadic, Clyne and Wanyama are all good players who, if Southampton don't make UCL this year they might struggle to keep.

They're obviously no Rooney, Di Maria, Mata or Falcao's as far as profile goes but they're top players who could do a job at any club.

Not sure about them being 'top players who can do a job at any club'.

I mean most of their higher profile/better players were sold last summer - Shaw, Lallana, Lambert, Lovren - and many were actually expecting them to be in the relegation. Surely these players that were sold are more likely to be classified as 'too good/high profile for Southampton'.

I'll give you Schneiderlin because he had a good season last year. But the others didn't exactly have high profiles. Under the new manager, they've worked their socks off and played really well as a team to get to where they are on the table. I'd argue it's only through their performances this season that you view them as 'players whose profile are too good for Southampton'.

 

[finneh]

Actually, the best XI thing is a bit odd as there are some positions where you can only use one player, which means leaving out players who have blatantly been among the very best around. If you extent it to a PL squad of 22 players and look at overall performances from the last three seasons (which is plenty of time to assess the true worth of a squad) I think Liverpool and Arsenal would both have at least two or three players in that squad, arguably more.

How many would United have? De Gea, definitely. After him we'd be in trouble. RvP and Carrick were great three seasons ago but their age and more recent form would probably keep them out. No chance would Di Maria make that squad. Not unless we're considering form from a different league. Which would be barmy.

Again that's even more of a difficulty for Chelsea as you couldn't really include include Matic, Fabregas, Costa or Courtois. Chelsea under those conditions would probably only have a couple of defenders and Hazard in the Premier League squad, despite having comfortably the best squad in the League.

You have to take a mixture of the player's history in any League (specifically Di Maria, Costa, Sanchez, Fabregas Courtois, Falcao) and current form. As we've said before our attacking player's for whatever reason aren't performing at the moment but I think if you asked any Premier League manager to pick a squad of 22 they'd all have Rooney, Di Maria and De Gea. Some would probably also have Van Persie, Mata, Falcao and/or Carrick.

Would Liverpool really have anyone other than Sturridge in a squad of 22?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Again that's even more of a difficulty for Chelsea as you couldn't really include include Matic, Fabregas, Costa or Courtois. Chelsea under those conditions would probably only have a couple of defenders and Hazard in the Premier League squad, despite having comfortably the best squad in the League.

You have to take a mixture of the player's history in any League (specifically Di Maria, Costa, Sanchez, Fabregas Courtois, Falcao) and current form. As we've said before our attacking player's for whatever reason aren't performing at the moment but I think if you asked any Premier League manager to pick a squad of 22 they'd all have Rooney, Di Maria and De Gea. Some would probably also have Van Persie, Mata, Falcao and/or Carrick.

Would Liverpool really have anyone other than Sturridge in a squad of 22?

how can allowing a bigger squad make it more difficult for players to make the cut?

All those players you mention would make the hypothetical PL squad.

The PL squad should, obviously, be picked based on PL form. Di Maria hasn't a hope on this basis. I'm probably being harsh on Rooney, mind you, he'd get in there along with De Gea as our only two representatives. Obviously not in central fecking midfield though.

Liverpool would have Sturridge, Sterling and Henderson. Mainly on last season's form. Although Henderson seems to be getting back to his best again in recent weeks. I'd probably try to find a way to get Coutinho in there too. I think he's a cracking wee player. I also think Lucas Leiva is superb at what he does and also seems to be finally getting back to his best. Realistically, that's too many though. Would need to trim 2 or 3.

 

[Pexbo]

Not sure about them being 'top players who can do a job at any club'.

I mean most of their higher profile/better players were sold last summer - Shaw, Lallana, Lambert, Lovren - and many were actually expecting them to be in the relegation. Surely these players that were sold are more likely to be classified as 'too good/high profile for Southampton'.

I'll give you Schneiderlin because he had a good season last year. But the others didn't exactly have high profiles. Under the new manager, they've worked their socks off and played really well as a team to get to where they are on the table. I'd argue it's only through their performances this season that you view them as 'players whose profile are too good for Southampton'.

Yeah I wasn't saying any different though was I?

I'm just judging them on their ability and saying that they'd have got a lot more press for them if they were doing it at a bigger club.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

To be fair to Southampton, they've got some individuals whose profile would be a lot higher if, ironically, they didn't play for Southampton.

Schneiderlin, Pelle, Tadic, Clyne and Wanyama are all good players who, if Southampton don't make UCL this year they might struggle to keep.

They're obviously no Rooney, Di Maria, Mata or Falcao's as far as profile goes but they're top players who could do a job at any club.

That's kind of the heart of what I'm getting to. We have a disconnect between profile and performances. Too many players with stellar reputations but less than stellar output on the pitch. And it's not just under our current manager either. Last season was a wash too and we managed to win the league in Fergie's last season with only two players (RvP and Carrick) that played at a level which might have had fans of other clubs looking at them enviously. Something which is not true of either of them right now. In Van Persie's case I suspect the decline is permanent.

Once again, I'm probably being harsh on Rooney (how unlike me!) he would make almost every other team in the league. Watching him flounder around in midfield has obviously coloured my opinion of him.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Feck it, I'm on a negativity spiral here. Don't mind me. Can't shake the suspicion that we've become a bit like the Wizard of Oz, with Fergie as the wee guy hiding behind the curtains. A mid-table squad driven to excel by the best manager on the planet, that needs to be rebuilt from scratch now he's gone. A rebuild that has barely even started yet already wasted astronomical sums of money on the wrong sort of players. I'm probably wrong though. I hope I'm wrong. A few wins and I'll be back to my bullish self again...

 

[Jev]

Feck it, I'm on a negativity spiral here. Don't mind me. Can't shake the suspicion that we've become a bit like the Wizard of Oz, with Fergie as the wee guy hiding behind the curtains. A mid-table squad driven to excel by the best manager on the planet, that needs to be rebuilt from scratch now he's gone. A rebuild that has barely even started yet already wasted astronomical sums of money on the wrong sort of players. I'm probably wrong though. I hope I'm wrong. A few wins and I'll be back to my bullish self again...

Nah, you're not wrong, we should be miles better off after spending 150 million.

If we were offered the chance to return the summer signings and get our money back, I'm pretty sure LVG and Woody would do so. It's hard to fathom that we've spent around 220 million over the past 18 months and are still so far off, I can't believe it really.

 

[finneh]

how can allowing a bigger squad make it more difficult for players to make the cut?

All those players you mention would make the hypothetical PL squad.

The PL squad should, obviously, be picked based on PL form. Di Maria hasn't a hope on this basis. I'm probably being harsh on Rooney, mind you, he'd get in there along with De Gea as our only two representatives. Obviously not in central fecking midfield though.

Liverpool would have Sturridge, Sterling and Henderson. Mainly on last season's form. Although Henderson seems to be getting back to his best again in recent weeks. I'd probably try to find a way to get Coutinho in there too. I think he's a cracking wee player. I also think Lucas Leiva is superb at what he does and also seems to be finally getting back to his best. Realistically, that's too many though. Would need to trim 2 or 3.

Because if you can't include Di Maria's Madrid form you can't really pick Courtois, Costa, Fabregas etc based on half a season for Chelsea. If we are looking at the last 3 seasons, playing well in the Premier League for 15% of that period means none of those player's would really qualify.

However obviously that would be absurd as you'd end up with the likes of Sterling in the squad over Sanchez and Szczesny over Courtois. I also think Mata would be an absolute shoe in for the squad if you are looking over the last 3 seasons, far ahead of the likes of Coutinho. Likewise I think Carrick amongst others would be ahead of Lucas and several player's ahead of Henderson (mainly because he has been poor on the whole this season and poor on a whole 12/13, with a great 13/14 season).

I think most people would suggest you take form for previous clubs (if recent); current form and form over the past few seasons and make a rounded judgement. That would probably make a squad similar to: De Gea Courtois Azpilicueta Zabaleta Baines Clyne Terry Cahill Kompany Koscielny Matic Carrick Fabregas Toure Silva Hazard Di Maria Sanchez Rooney Aguero Costa Sturridge

I'm sure Liverpool fans would have Henderson for Carrick and Sterling for Rooney on current form though. I personally would probably have Mata over Costa (and I'm sure Arsenal fans would say Ozil) also but I've kept 4 strikers to make it clean.

Either way Chelsea would have 7-8 player's, City would have around 5, we'd have 3-4, whilst Arsenal & Liverpool would have a couple at most (with Everton/So'ton filling the gaps).

The problem is getting ours playing. It's obvious Rooney wouldn't get into that squad in central midfield, Di Maria wouldn't get into the squad as a centre forward and Carrick wouldn't get into the squad as a isolated, lone central midfielder.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Nah, you're not wrong, we should be miles better off after spending 150 million.

If we were offered the chance to return the summer signings and get our money back, I'm pretty sure LVG and Woody would do so. It's hard to fathom that we've spent around 220 million over the past 18 months and are still so far off, I can't believe it really.

Yeah, the spending is staggering and (IMO) really really depressing. We've lost any moral highground we once had about obtaining success through developing potential, rather than buying the most expensive players around and we've somehow still ended up with a squad that seems nowhere near ready to challenge for a title. In a way, it's quite an achievement! To spend so much and end up with so little. 220m spent and how many players in our squad look like future members of the world elite?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Because if you can't include Di Maria's Madrid form you can't really pick Courtois, Costa, Fabregas etc based on half a season for Chelsea. If we are looking at the last 3 seasons, playing well in the Premier League for 15% of that period means none of those player's would really qualify.

You can and I'm sure the hypothetical manager would. All he wants to do is to pick the best players the league has to offer. If they're the best players right now, so much the better. If he has to pick some members based on previous seasons form that's ok. Providing he thinks they can reach those levels again. Obviously, more recent form is most important of all. Basically the same rationale an international manager would use when picking a squad for a tournament in the summer, except it's picked entirely based on performances in one specific league.

It's a really simple premise, which you seem to be over-complicating for some reason.

 

[JaffyJoe]

If we play the way we should with the players with have, we would only be 2/3 players away from being a top team. Inexperienced cb comfortable in possession, a dm who can break up play, is mobile and comfortable on the ball and a goal scoring wide man.

It's a crime that Herrera doesn't start every game. ADM is our best player and he is most dangerous in the middle but by starting Rooney who is awful in there and mata who i believe is actually a second striker and not a 10 or playmaker we have nothing in the middle.

The race for the last two spaces in the top 4 look like they are going to be tough.

 

[finneh]

You can and I'm sure the hypothetical manager would. All he wants to do is to pick the best players the league has to offer. If they're the best players right now, so much the better. If he has to pick some members based on previous seasons form that's ok. Providing he thinks they can reach those levels again. Obviously, more recent form is most important of all.

It's a really simple premise, which you seem to be over-complicating for some reason.

Which is exactly my point (I was highlighting how your method was over-complicating it!). The only criteria that Di Maria isn't an absolute shoe in is if you are only taking into account Premier League form over the past 3 seasons, as he's barely started 10 games and has been patchy form wise. However if that is the criteria you use, several other great player's would also have to be discounted due to too small a sample size.

If you discount Di Maria, by definition you have to discount Courtois, Fabregas & Costa (probably Matic too), which would be absurd.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Which is exactly my point (I was highlighting how your method was over-complicating it!). The only criteria that Di Maria isn't an absolute shoe in is if you are only taking into account Premier League form over the past 3 seasons, as he's barely started 10 games and has been patchy form wise. However if that is the criteria you use, several other great player's would also have to be discounted due to too small a sample size.

If you discount Di Maria, by definition you have to discount Courtois, Fabregas & Costa (probably Matic too), which would be absurd.

We're going in circles here, so I'm happy to agree to disagree. I think a squad of the PL's best players should be judged entirely on their performances in the PL. You don't. That's ok. Each to their own. Although I would like to point out it was my concept, so I should make the rules!

 

[thegregster]

Yeah, the spending is staggering and (IMO) really really depressing. We've lost any moral highground we once had about obtaining success through developing potential, rather than buying the most expensive players around and we've somehow still ended up with a squad that seems nowhere near ready to challenge for a title. In a way, it's quite an achievement! To spend so much and end up with so little. 220m spent and how many players in our squad look like future members of the world elite?

Its still only 110mil per season. Seems a lot but it really isn't.

A small figure really given City were spending this sort of dosh 6 years ago and Chelsea 10 years also.

Chelsea have spent 190mil and City 180mil in the same period. So we are just spending to match our rivals. Its not as if our spending should give a huge advantage like it did Chelsea in the mid 2000s.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Its still only 110mil per season. Seems a lot but it really isn't.

A small figure really given City were spending this sort of dosh 6 years ago and Chelsea 10 years also.

Chelsea have spent 190mil and 180mil in the same period. So we are just spending to match our rivals. Its not as if our spending should give a huge advantage like it did Chelsea in the mid 2000s.

Is that right? In the last two seasons alone? Fair enough. I still think they've spent way better than we have. When you go on a spree like that you want to end up with at least one or two in the squad who you think have the potential to go on to be one the best players on the planet.

Where is our Hazard, Aguero or Silva?

Individual superstars aside, a spree like that should also be with a view to "two top players in every position" paradigm that Mourinho introduced when he first spent Roman's millions. How many positions in our best XI would that apply to right now?

 

[bishblaize]

Its still only 110mil per season. Seems a lot but it really isn't.

A small figure really given City were spending this sort of dosh 6 years ago and Chelsea 10 years also.

Chelsea have spent 190mil and 180mil in the same period. So we are just spending to match our rivals. Its not as if our spending should give a huge advantage like it did Chelsea in the mid 2000s.

Indeed. Saw this in the Guardian

Since the summer of 2007, City have spent £230m on centre-forwards in the shape of Bony, Alvaro Negredo, Agüero, Mario Balotelli, Edin Dzeko, Roque Santa Cruz, Carlos Tevez, Emmanuel Adebayor, Jo and Benjani.

That's on one position, upgrading the position by increments til, over the last two seasons, they had as good a set of strikers as any team around. I appreciate the different circumstances that City had at the start. But it does illustrate the scale of the spending going on by our rivals.

 

[Jev]

Yeah, the spending is staggering and (IMO) really really depressing. We've lost any moral highground we once had about obtaining success through developing potential, rather than buying the most expensive players around and we've somehow still ended up with a squad that seems nowhere near ready to challenge for a title. In a way, it's quite an achievement! To spend so much and end up with so little. 220m spent and how many players in our squad look like future members of the world elite?

What has surprised me is how little the fans have cared about losing this moral highground, as you call it, despite bragging about it for years. We've been quite self-righteous in truth, but I've felt we've had a reason to compared to City and Chelsea. Yet now the same people don't give a damn that we've become exactly like them. But I guess that's football fans.

But yeah, it would definitely be easier to accept if we'd actually gotten a return from all that money.

 

[Pexbo]

Is that right? In the last two seasons alone? Fair enough. I still think they've spent way better than we have. When you go on a spree like that you want to end up with at least one or two in the squad who you think have the potential to go on to be one the best players on the planet.

Where is our Hazard, Aguero or Silva?

Individual superstars aside, a spree like that should also be with a view to "two top players in every position" paradigm that Mourinho introduced when he first spent Roman's millions. How many positions in our best XI would that apply to right now?

Personally I think judging our signings after 5 injury hit months is retarded and Falcao aside, by the end of next season we'll be rating them as good signings. You only have to listen to Fergies opinion on that.

 

[Jev]

Personally I think judging our signings after 5 injury hit months is retarded and Falcao aside, by the end of next season we'll be rating them as good signings. You only have to listen to Fergies opinion on that.

It's not about knocking down the signings but do you feel, when you look at our squad, that we are as close to City and Chelsea as we we should be after 220 millions of spending over 18 months?

I hope most of the new guys will end up being decent signings but I'm absolutely convinced that we could have gotten more out of all that money. Just look at what Chelsea did this summer for instance.

But I don't think it's unfair to have doubts over Falcao, who looks a shadow of his old self, or Herrera who can hardly get a game, or Rojo who, for me, looks like a very ordinary defender, no better than what we already had.