The future under Van Gaal - lay your chips

Pexbo

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So it's become absolutely clear that there is a big divide on Van Gaal at this moment in time.

Myself and a few others support what he's doing here, understand what he's trying to achieve with the 3-5-2 even if we don't enjoy watching it and have full belief that he will be a success here.

The other side of the divide think the 3-5-2 is drawn out of stubbornness, think his possession based football is "not the United way" and think that fielding an attack that "should score more than them" is the way to the Top 4.


I think the arguments are getting a bit tired now so I'm going to refrain from now on but I thought it would be a good time for an "I told you so" thread where we can make predictions of what we think will happen under Van Gaal and in a year, 18 months , two years or when he's sacked we can come in here and gloat about it or take the piss.




My prediction:

Another summer of big transfers. Top bracket defenders, a powerful intelligent midfielder and more pace in attack.


What it's based on:

Van Gaal's complete lack of trust in the defence, he knows that until he can address that problem, he cant start playing the front 6 he wants.

Playing Rooney in midfield. He clearly wants a box to box midfielder in there who doesn't get bullied and can go toe to toe while still contributing in attack.

Playing Di Maria up front. He wants a player whose pace stretches the opposition and hits them on the counter. I think he also knows that Di Maria isn't the ideal player to do this.


The outcome - a totally different United to this season, stability in defence providing a platform for a much more fluid attack. Will it be enough to turn us into title winners? Who knows but I think it will be between us and Chelsea next season with City falling away.
 
I'll go with that @Pexbo. The string of negativity throughout this forum is unfathomable, especially when you take into consideration that we have one of the best defence records in the league and sat in a very positive third place (until the Southampton loss) due to a good run of results, using an unfamiliar system and most of our players enduring an ever-present learning curve to make natural football concepts which aren't so.

Of course, my belief is that he will persist with the 3-5-2, due to the defensive stability it brings, in which he'll secure third or fourth place, bring us back into the Champions League, which will make for a healthy transfer summer and the beginning of moving to another system for next season (depending on targets being acquired).

LvG was very right to point out that although results were good with the 4-4-2 diamond, the balance wasn't correct, the defence was more exposed, and that results in a Leicester and West Ham situation. If controlling games is the very thing which leads to winning them, then he's right to shoot for stability over erratic approaches.
 
I expect us to continue playing 3-5-2 the rest of the season changing to the diamond only when we're pushing for a goal. Its based on him not trusting the CBs we have and that isnt going to change before the summer. It'l be pretty dull to watch but should get better with time.

I expect us to either sneak into the CL places or just fail to do so this season.

In the summer, a top CM, a pacy striker and 1 or maybe even 2 CBs.

Then a move to 4 at the back next season with good attacking football and much better results as well.
 
I will be killed for it and I hope I am wrong but I reckon what van Gaal will ultimately try to do is to prove that he can make 352 work against all odds. He will insist on the formation and we will be negative even against League One sides at home because it brought him success at the World Cup (even though they wouldn't have even reached quarter-finals if they hadn't switched to 4231) and he wants to go down as a revolutionary thinker in what could be his last job at a top club.

I reckon we will bring whoever good is available next Summer, possibly spending £100m+ again but it won't really make us much better because for 352 to look even remotely fine we are going to need to spend £250m+ IMO (£20-£25m each on two new full backs, £40m on a new leader in defence plus £20m on a left footed defender, £50m on a fast forward that will drop deep, £30m on a mobile central midfielder who will distribute the ball, £40m on a new attacking midfielder with pace and ability to break forward, and possibly some more) , we basically have about three players in total who could execute that formation. We will bring Strootman for £30m and sell Herrera, that I'm pretty certain about.
 
United's three seasons under van Gaal assuming he stays that long: three top four finishes, no title, no Champions League but United will win two cup competitions.
 
From what I gather too he was exactly the same at Bayern, stuck to his own beliefs and unwilling to change under any circumstances and after a while the fans turned on him and the board started to hate him.
 
Sarni said:
I will be killed for it and I hope I am wrong but I reckon what van Gaal will ultimately try to do is to prove that he can make 352 work against all odds. He will insist on the formation and we will be negative even against League One sides at home because it brought him success at the World Cup (even though they wouldn't have even reached quarter-finals if they hadn't switched to 4231) and he wants to go down as a revolutionary thinker in what could be his last job at a top club.

I reckon we will bring whoever good is available next Summer, possibly spending £100m+ again but it won't really make us much better because for 352 to look even remotely fine we are going to need to spend £250m+ IMO (£20-£25m each on two new full backs, £40m on a new leader in defence plus £20m on a left footed defender, £50m on a fast forward that will drop deep, £30m on a mobile central midfielder who will distribute the ball, £40m on a new attacking midfielder with pace and ability to break forward, and possibly some more) , we basically have about three players in total who could execute that formation. We will bring Strootman for £30m and sell Herrera, that I'm pretty certain about.
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If your scenario happens to be true (as in 3-5-2 being our formation for the future months and seasons) then to say that the summer transfer window will be interesting is an euphemism. I highly doubt this formation will ever produce anything close to good football/success at Utd but only time will tell.
I just wonder why didn't LVG just decide from his arrival to play us in that formation and buy the players accordingly to it last summer, a lot of money seems to have been wasted since his arrival.
 
I can't identify with that divide: I'm against the 352, but approve of the general style of football. Even now I think when you watch our football it looks more like the players have been coached by someone who knows what they're doing, and it's just the many problems with the formation that are hurting us. Not just that it generally doesn't work well, that it highlights our weaknesses and limits our strengths, and that the players can't get to grips with it, but also that it's forcing him to play loads of our best players out of position - Rooney and Mata in CM, Di Maria up front, Carrick in defence half the time.

So personally I'm just waiting for him to give up on 352. I think he's got into a loop where he responds to defensive mistakes by returning to the 3 at the back. Every other manager would just try and solve the defensive mistakes, and I think he needs to grow a pair, switch back to a proper formation, and push through the defensive issues. Hell, Wenger's been working around having a shit defence for half of his career.

Once he does that, we'll start to flourish. The seeds are there, obscured as they are. I see us struggling to fourth this season. Hopefully we'll make a couple of significant purchases next season but not be quite so Madrid about it - I'd like a top CB and a physical, all-round box-to-box midfielder. I don't buy this crap about needing more pace in attack, or another 'proper winger'. We have Di Maria and Januzaj who are both fast, direct and deadly when used properly, excellent young FBs in Rafael and Shaw, powerful runners in Rooney and Falcao, and a genuinely lightning-quick striker in Wilson - and it's only a matter of time before he comes good.

I couldn't tell you how next season will go though. It depends on what he does. If he perseveres with 352, I dread to think how things might end up. It looks like a total dead end to me.
 
kouroux said:
If your scenario happens to be true (as in 3-5-2 being our formation for the future months and seasons) then to say that the summer transfer window will be interesting is an euphemism. I highly doubt this formation will ever produce anything close to good football/success at Utd but only time will tell.
I just wonder why didn't LVG just decide from his arrival to play us in that formation and buy the players accordingly to it last summer, a lot of money seems to have been wasted since his arrival.
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No, I think we could play excellent football even in 352. If you had two full backs in the mould of Dani Alves of his best years on the flanks, a ball playing defender with good passing range (Hummels? Haven't seen him enough to be absolutely certain about that), two mobile midfielders who can run with the ball (look Essien in his prime and Vieira at his best) plus an offensive midfielder that can spread the ball around, score and run (Messi?) plus a fast forward who can create something out of nothing (Aguero) next to a strong forward who can shield the ball (Lewandowski) you wouldn't exactly look bad IMO.

If you have a full back at one wing back and Valencia on the other, three average defenders, a set of midfielders completely unfamiliar with the formation and unable to perform in this set up and slow attacking midfielders and forwards you will always look crap.
 
I don't think possession football not being "the Utd way" is a problem. Having posession of the ball for the sake or mainly between the DM, the 3 CBs and the keepers annoys the fans. If we keep the ball and create more chances in the 352 then I'll be all for it but with the way we play and the players we have, it's been impossible.

Sarni said:
No, I think we could play excellent football even in 352. If you had two full backs in the mould of Dani Alves of his best years on the flanks, a ball playing defender with good passing range (Hummels? Haven't seen him enough to be absolutely certain about that), two mobile midfielders who can run with the ball (look Essien in his prime and Vieira at his best) plus an offensive midfielder that can spread the ball around, score and run (Messi?) plus a fast forward who can create something out of nothing (Aguero) next to a strong forward who can shield the ball (Lewandowski) you wouldn't exactly look bad IMO.

If you have a full back at one wing back and Valencia on the other, three average defenders, a set of midfielders completely unfamiliar with the formation and unable to perform in this set up and slow attacking midfielders and forwards you will always look crap.
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The 3-5-2 system will require more time, adaptation and investment than any other system IMHO. Like you mentioned, there are too many specialized players to buy to make it work.
I know it's impossible to accurately with Chelsea but even before Mourinho they played more or less the same system and since his arrival, he's tried to get the right players to make the system the players were used to work even better.
 
Be interesting to see how much of the LVG love in would be going on if he didn't have the experience and reputation to back up his chat.
I'm not seeing where he is going with his 'philosophy' and I'm less than convinced about his tactical astuteness presently, but I'm lead to have faith because of his past?
Clearly, the club needs to stick with him because another summer of faffing about would be sub optimal but he needs to improve.
 
People say they see him being a 'success', but in terms of what success means to me I seriously doubt van Gaal will achieve it in his time here. I don't think we'll win the league, but we might scrape an undeserved Champions League trophy if we're lucky. In any case we won't be some major European powerhouse, playing great football, with several top class youths being integrated into the team. We'll just outspend everyone and hang about the top four like a bad smell.
 
My faith in him as taken a knock, but I still think he'll come good as long as CL football is secured this season. If he fails to get CL football, who knows if he'll be around long enough to finish what he's started.
 
@Sarni
@kouroux

There's a million threads to debate the 3-5-2 and other talking points, can we just keep this one to simple predictions and avoid quoting each other and turning it into another one of those threads.
 
I am not convinced he will be here next season because I think it is 50/50 whether we will finish in the top 4 or not, we aren’t making any progress, Arsenal and Liverpool are improving and Southampton aren’t fading as everyone thought so I think it is going to be very close at the end of the season.

Personally I don’t see him winning titles even if he lasts the 3 years, he has too big a job on his hands and I don’t think he can turn it round quickly enough without making massive changes which just aren’t realistic. I hope he gives up on 3-5-2 but it is here to stay until the end of the season at least, saying that I think if he is here next year we will see a lot of money spent in the summer, go back to playing a back 4 and more width and pace in attack.

In 3 years I only expect him to get 2-3 top four finishes and maybe win the FA or League Cup but I think he will leave behind a better squad and better foundations than what he inherited.
 
I think he'll be sacked next summer after we fail to win any silverware. Also, I think the matchday fans will grow more disgruntled, after he sticks with 3-5-2 next season and the new signings struggle to adapt like this season.
 
Sacked within 2 seasons. Think we'll scrape top 4 this year, spend a shit load of money and probably miss out on top 4 next season.
 
people predicting success after spending more money than City just shows that Van Gaal isn't really good at managing resources he has got and his philosophy is flawed for the club. if we don't finish in the top 3, i wouldn't trust him to get the best even out of whoever it is he buys.

he is starting to sound like Moyes, and we will go nowhere with his twitchy a**
 
We will eventually go to a 4-3-3 once we have a balanced squad and the players to be able to use that formation effectively.

3-5-2 is only for this season.
 
We stick with the 3-5-2, continue to play dire football and finish fourth, fifth or sixth. In the summer we spend 80 million on Strootman who then goes on to become an important squad player.

Hopefully he'll be sacked somewhere down the line unless he changes things up completely. My faith in him is almost completely gone.
 
I actually think the truth lies somewhere in the middle @Pexbo - no doubt i can see what he is trying to accomplish with the 3-5-2 (possession based football, clever movement off the ball), however, he cant flat out ignore some very obvious flaws....one of these being he doesnt have the centre backs to play that system. So, i get philosophy and teaching the players but surely he has to learn to adapt to what he has available.

Im certainly not doubting him long term but i would like to see him acknowledge that its maybe not the right way to be playing with the players he currently has available. Lastly, he talks about the balance when we've played the diamond formation versus 3-5-2 - he may want to revisit the games where we played 3 at the back cause barring glimpses in a few, we took a pasting and were lucky throughout the run of wins.
 
LonelyFire said:
I actually think the truth lies somewhere in the middle @Pexbo - no doubt i can see what he is trying to accomplish with the 3-5-2 (possession based football, clever movement off the ball), however, he cant flat out ignore some very obvious flaws....one of these being he doesnt have the centre backs to play that system. So, i get philosophy and teaching the players but surely he has to learn to adapt to what he has available.

Im certainly not doubting him long term but i would like to see him acknowledge that its maybe not the right way to be playing with the players he currently has available. Lastly, he talks about the balance when we've played the diamond formation versus 3-5-2 - he may want to revisit the games where we played 3 at the back cause barring glimpses in a few, we took a pasting and were lucky throughout the run of wins.
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I agree with all that and the bolder bit was my main gripe with Moyes. There was an element that it was all totally out of his control until he could sign 15 players of his own. Like he had 6 years to improve. LvG needs to to better with what he has at his disposal currently, but then we are still 3rd so we're about where I expected us to be.

3 at the back has got to stop though unless we're trying to kill an away game and bore the opposition to death.
 
I think he'll do well if not spectacular. I don't think he'll see out his 3 year term or if he does he won't stay beyond it. I fancy him to completely turn our squad around, sorting the wheat from the chaf and leave us in a great position ready for the manager that follows.

It's what van Gaal does.
 
Steven Seagull said:
I agree with all that and the bolder bit was my main gripe with Moyes. There was an element that it was all totally out of his control until he could sign 15 players of his own. Like he had 6 years to improve. LvG needs to to better with what he has at his disposal currently, but then we are still 3rd so we're about where I expected us to be.

3 at the back has got to stop though unless we're trying to kill an away game and bore the opposition to death.
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I funny thing is that with the right defenders 3 at the back could be a very good system for us - unfortunately, not one of our centre backs are good enough/smart enough to play that way. We'd be better going with Carrick at the back because he understands how to distribute the ball correctly....that and a new right back who can actually cross the ball.

What is irritating me with LVG is he has contradicted himself a few times. He has said previously he is playing that system due to not having his full backs (Shaw and Rafael) available with full "match rhythm" but then you get games where both are available and we continue to see 3-5-2. Then you get yesterday where he steadfastly supports the 3-5-2 system. So, what is the truth? What does he want to play?
 
Stop turning it into a debate thresd! Leave your predictions and bugger off!

I think I should have put this one in the general :lol:
 
I think he just reckons our centre backs are wank. Far more wank than he ever imagined a club like us to would put up with. Obviously he's not going to say he can't trust these clowns so he's used a few different excuses. If he went back in time 6 months there's no doubt in my mind he'd buy at least one top class centre half. Or try very hard to get one.

Edit: we'll scrape top 4 this year and probably go a decent way in the cup. Ironically due to us playing wankball and being tough to beat.
 
Pexbo said:
Stop turning it into a debate thresd! Leave your predictions and bugger off!

I think I should have put this one in the general :lol:
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You should have just made it a new poll on the same subject as last time and the time before.

Since you do proclaim to understand what LvG is trying to do, id implore you to create a thread sharing your wisdom with the rest of us Neanderthals who clearly lack the belief.

Its easy to be contrarian and bellow patience.
 
Smores said:
You should have just made it a new poll on the same subject as last time and the time before.

Since you do proclaim to understand what LvG is trying to do, id implore you to create a thread sharing your wisdom with the rest of us Neanderthals who clearly lack the belief.

Its easy to be contrarian and bellow patience.
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I've already given my opinion in numerous threads.
 
LVG will eventually have some success (though I don't think he will win PL) because it is bound to happen with the players we have and more superstars we are expected to buy. However we will never know whether we could have achieved more by him not being stubborn about playing 3 at the back.
 
Prediction's:

Big money spent in the summer to complete a 3 season long re-building job (maybe some tweaks the following summer depending on who comes available).
We remove all the deadwood from the club.
LVG's Philosophy works when he has better player's available for selection.
People will still complain about the 'Philosophy' for the only reason that LVG isn't Fergie.
We win 2 domestic cup competitions over the next 2 seasons.
We finish 2nd in the PL twice and reach the quarter finals of the Champions League twice.
 
@Pexbo: You want a prediction huh ? We'll keep on playing the 3-5-2, we will not finish in the top 4, LVG will stay and he'll buy the players to fit the formation in the summer. We will compete for the top 4 again next season and still falling short of competing for the title.
 
My guess:

3-5-2 for the rest of the season, finish fourth, big summer, title challenge next year, continuing complaints about our style of football.
 
He'll continue to try 3-5-2. We won't finish in the CL places. He'll be sacked. (or at least should be)

Giggs as manager next season with the Nevilles as assistants, we'll be back to 4-4-2 with wingers. It'll be a disaster.
 
The lack of confidence in the defence is strange. Sure it's not the greatest but it's not a lower league quality defence.
 
I think he is a tactical coward so far. this is not what i expected at all from him.

For a man who supposedly got his b*lls out in the dressing room to make a point, he certainly hasnt put them on the line so far.

His philosophy doesnt appear to be in tune with the United way, attacking football.

However, i hear what people are saying. Lets see if he makes top4 first. Im not convinced that we will make CL spots. Then there will be bigger questions to be asked about him.
 
You have to wonder if the club pulling the rug out from under Moyes so brutally early is going to make all our next few managers this risk averse. All the chat about long term projects seem very hollow when you're firing managers half-way through their first season in charge. Which is actually very unusual, when you think about it. To an extent, Woody et al can share the blame for Van Gaal being so conservative. They're the real cowards here.

Anyone got any other examples of a manager at a big club being fired before they've finished their first season?

AvB? Anyone else?
 
I don't think he'll ever win the title playing 3-5-2, I'd be willing to predict that much. If he wants to stick with it, he'll do well to last two years.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
You have to wonder if the club pulling the rug out from under Moyes so brutally early is going to make all our next few managers this risk averse. All the chat about long term projects seem very hollow when you're firing managers half-way through their first season in charge. Which is actually very unusual, when you think about it. To an extent, Woody et al can share the blame for Van Gaal being so conservative. They're the real cowards here.

Anyone got any other examples of a manager at a big club being fired before they've finished their first season?

AvB? Anyone else?
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Tbh there's also a lack of managers doing this badly with a premier league winning team. So any comparison will be flawed.
 
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