Lionel Messi - Performances

united_99 said:
Well you can watch 2009 or 2012 semi finals and compare them to yesterday's game or to the CL finals 2009 and 2011? That would be a good start. Oh and as you don't seem to value the international tournaments highly I won't advise you to watch any of those games anyway.
I am afraid I can't help you more and my experience in the past has shown that discussions with you don't lead anywhere as we disagree on pretty much everything from Moyes to Rooney to English players to Fellaini to CL knock out performances to international tournaments to everything else ... so I am not prepared to waste time on stating something that ob ious to you.
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Why are you being so obtuse? I asked a simple question. What tactics did Chelsea and Germany use in those two or three games that no other team has managed to replicate, before or since? I mean with him averaging almost a goal a game in his career to date they must have been doing some pretty revolutionary tactical shit to do what almost nobody else has managed to do in all this time and shut him out completely.

Or maybe, just maybe, you're using a couple of games where Messi (shock, horror) didn't score as evidence that there's some sort of easy solution to shutting him down. For anyone other than a spectacularly naive side like City, anyway. Which is, of course, a ridiculous way of looking at things. Not to mention that he actually caused Chelsea all sorts of problems, even though he didn't score against them. A bit like last night, really.
 
BennyBlanco said:
I try to watch Barca as often as possible, been to the camp nou a couple of times simply to watch Messi more so than Barcelona, so im a big fan of him obviously.. last year had his fans worried, he didnt look as enthusiastic or even interested as he previously had, so im rather relieved by his performances since the turn of this year, to say his perfomance first half last night was 10/10 would be doing him an injustice.
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Very much the same for me. I was thinking how much I enjoyed the match last night despite the unflattering scoreline and reading some of the twitter reactions from professional footballers - I wasn't alone

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I always say this about Messi, we should just enjoy him
 
united_99 said:
The WC argument isn't nonsense at all. And it's not something which only goes against Messi, it goes against the likes of Ronaldo or Rooney too (and especially as it goes against Rooney, it's no surprise at all that a certain poster insinsts on calling it a nonsense argument, indeed it's very predictable).

There have been players who have performed well in tournaments' big games and at club level (notably R9, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Xavi, Iniesta, Pirlo and some others). That doesn't mean that they are better players than Messi or Ronaldo, but you can't just ignore their performances in the biggest competitions in the world. A competition with immense pressure and attention, with the best players in it, an event which the whole world looks forward to every 2-4 years.

Then you also have a player like Iniesta who has been unfit and out of form before WC 2010 and Euro 2012 (in fact in 2010 he was out injured for more than a month so couldn't take part in Barca's end of season games, plus was kind of depressed because of his mate's death - the Espanyol player), but still gave a masterclass in those tournaments, especially in the later stages of the tournaments when it all gets very tough.

Now that doesn't mean Iniesta is the best player ever, but it would be extremely stupid to ignore that some players like Iniesta have managed to shine in tournaments despite not being fit.
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the thing about the world cup is that only players from certain countries will ever play it

Giggs never played it, Weah didnt play it, Bale probably will never play it and i'm pretty sure thast the list will go on and on

and to meassure messi only for that, is unfair, why dont we measure Distefano? or Best? or Cruyff?

non of them won the world cup, and still are regarded as football gods

and as pogue said, had messi shot one feet to the left, argentina would have won the world cup
 
Marcosdeto said:
the thing about the world cup is that only players from certain countries will ever play it

Giggs never played it, Weah didnt play it, Bale probably will never play it and i'm pretty sure thast the list will go on and on

and to meassure messi only for that, is unfair, why dont we measure Distefano? or Best? or Cruyff?

non of them won the world cup, and still are regarded as football gods

and as pogue said, had messi shot one feet to the left, argentina would have won the world cup
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I agree and I never said that Messi or any player should be judged solely on WC performances, what I am saying is that it cannot be ignored that certain players have been able to match their impressive club form in international tournaments.
Regarding your last sentence well ifs ifs ifs, fact is he didn't. But it's not just the goals anyway, he didn't score against City over 180 mins but was still the best player on the pitch, in the WC however despite not being bad at no time was he even close to being as good as against City imo.
 
united_99 said:
I agree and I never said that Messi or any player should be judged solely on WC performances, what I am saying is that it cannot be ignored that certain players have been able to match their impressive club form in international tournaments.
Regarding your last sentence well ifs ifs ifs, fact is he didn't. But it's not just the goals anyway, he didn't score against City over 180 mins but was still the best player on the pitch, in the WC however despite not being bad at no time was he even close to being as good as against City imo.
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Agree to an extent with your overall point on club v NT performance level and form (though it's clearly not an issue limited to Messi, but also applies to other "super star" forwards of this era, notably Cristiano, Rooney, Agüero, etc.); don't agree with the bold, in my opinion he was equally good or even better against Switzerland who were far more defensively solid than last night's City.

Would further also like to point out that for all the success Spain and to a lesser extent Germany have enjoyed at NT level it is very obviously founded on club level success (save for Spain at Euro 2008), respectively Barça and Bayern. Messi and other super stars might not be exactly able to replicate their club form at NT level outside of their "comfort zone", but on the other hand those successful Spanish and German players didn't really have to leave their comfort zone at all, at most they just redecorated the place a bit.
 
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united_99 said:
I agree and I never said that Messi or any player should be judged solely on WC performances, what I am saying is that it cannot be ignored that certain players have been able to match their impressive club form in international tournaments.
Regarding your last sentence well ifs ifs ifs, fact is he didn't. But it's not just the goals anyway, he didn't score against City over 180 mins but was still the best player on the pitch, in the WC however despite not being bad at no time was he even close to being as good as against City imo.
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well, seven games with players you are not used to play, that's not a meassure

and of course, pele won it -many of them where santos players-
maradona won it
but that's it, no other GOAT won it .-cruyff, distefano, best-

btw it's old but i think it aplies

CAaSFBOUQAAPjTe.jpg
 
Marcosdeto said:
well, seven games with players you are not used to play, that's not a meassure

and of course, pele won it -many of them where santos players-
maradona won it
but that's it, no other GOAT won it .-cruyff, distefano, best-

btw it's old but i think it aplies

CAaSFBOUQAAPjTe.jpg
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You reckon? Wait until we sponsored by adidas make a 250 mil bid and Woody telling Messi how his social media following will beat Ronaldo's once he joins us!
 
Skorenzy said:
Agree to an extent with your overall point on club v NT performance level and form (though it's clearly not an issue limited to Messi, but also applies to other "super star" forwards of this era, notably Cristiano, Rooney, Agüero, etc.); don't agree with the bold, in my opinion he was equally good or even better against Switzerland who were far more defensively solid than last night's City.

Would further also like to point out that for all the success Spain and to a lesser extent Germany have enjoyed at NT level it is very obviously founded on club level success (save for Spain at Euro 2008), respectively Barça and Bayern. Messi (and Cristiano et al) and other super stars might not be exactly able to replicate their club form at NT level outside of their "comfort zone", but on the other hand those successful Spanish and German players didn't really have to leave their comfort zone at all, at most they just redecorated the place a bit.
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Basically true with the NT success based on club level, but even then there are some exceptions (David Silva in 2008 and 2012, but even more David Villa's performances in 2008 and 2010).
 
Quite an oversight, forgetting Beckenbauer!


On Messi, it was a joy to watch him yesterday. I think this version of him, or him playing in this Barcelona team, is my favourite of all.
 
The World Cup is no longer the premier football competition that it was in the time os Beckenbaur, Maradona, Pele, etc. The greatest competition is the European Champions League, and Messi has won that already as a stand out player. He's in sensational form right now but it doesn't even compare to his 4 ballon d'or years, amazingly. He can play better than he did yesterday and thats saying something.
 
It's just a daft argument anyway. If he'd chosen to play with Spain and had won it with them would he be the undisputed GOAT? No chance, people would just say he more or less played with his club side and they were so far ahead of the rest that it was too easy to win it, and there'd be some truth in that anyway.
 
Snake Plissken said:
It's just a daft argument anyway. If he'd chosen to play with Spain and had won it with them would he be the undisputed GOAT? No chance, people would just say he more or less played with his club side and they were so far ahead of the rest that it was too easy to win it, and there'd be some truth in that anyway.
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if he had chosen to play for spain i'd be in the PS3 vs Nintendo thread :mad:
 
The world cup argument against messi is a very poor one. He can't be on God mode all the time and a player can have bad luck with injuries, fitness or out of form over the course of a short cup competition. There's too much luck involved. What I would say is that one should have at least peformed in all the formats I.e league, cl, World Cup, which messi has obviously done given he was one of the best players at this World Cup. But like I said, if you expecting a career where a player is on that God mode all the time, in every competition, then you're expecting him to be very lucky with injuries, fitness, the team he's in etc. And for me, that's not realistic and maybe not even human.
 
There's a lot of luck needed. Things need to work out for your team to win the world cup, the great sides usually go in at optimum condition and everything clicks

I'd have loved to have seen him in God mode at a WC, but fact is he went into 2010 with a crazy manager with a crazy tactical set up and got drawn against the one side who were certain to exploit their short comings. 2014 he went in on what was a poor season by his own standards, lacking in fitness and with the other big name players (Mascherano aside) failing to show up. In spite of that they did incredibly well to make the final, but were simply beaten by the better team who deserved to win it.

You need that luck, the French team of 98, all those players in peak form. Spain recently with Xavi and Iniesta being the perfect pairing, the experience and leadership of Puyol and Casillas, Villa scoring for fun etc.
 
I agree with those that say World Cup performances shouldn't be the defining factor, but I really don't get how people can disregard it entirely simply due to the rise of Champions League football. Injuries, mismanagement and simple bad luck can play hugely important roles in tournaments that only last a month, yes, but it's that added challenge that makes it such a commendable achievement. Ronaldo overcame injuries to play a starring role in the World Cup. Zidane overcame mismanagement to play a starring role in a World Cup. At the end of the day, all of the great players faced the exact same problems and it's how they dealt with them that allowed them to play a decisive role in one of the biggest sporting events around and in many cases the pinnacle of their sporting careers that establishes them as truly a level above their peers.

The thing is, the people that are arguing against the World Cup being an important factor seemingly always argue against the most extreme version of the opposing argument - arguing against the idea that he needs to stand head and shoulders above everyone else in the tournament and almost single-handedly drag an average team to win it. There are so few people that think this that it's more or less a straw man argument. Cruyff didn't win the World Cup but his performances in '74 are still right up there with his greatest achievements and at the heart of his legendary status, and if Messi had done something similar I've no doubt much of the criticism would've died away. I'm not saying he should be expected to perform at the same level because Cruyff played with a group of players he was extremely familiar with and they were all on form, and that's not true of Messi, but the point is winning the tournament is not the be all and end all. It's just about showing something close to your best form under a different set of conditions. That's hardly a unique challenge that only Messi has had to live up to.

If you're talking about the great players you're talking about Maradona, Pelé, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Puskás, Di Stefano, Zidane, Ronaldo, Best, Garrincha, Eusébio, Platini etc. and the only player there that played in a World Cup and didn't show something close to his best form was Platini, and it's no doubt partly because of that that he's considered a tier below many of the others. Best and Di Stéfano didn't get a chance so that's not something you can hold against them, but the rest all have at least one really memorable World Cup performance to point to. I don't think Messi's performances last year can compete with any of the others and I don't think it was any better than Platini in '82, but his World Cup performances are almost dismissed entirely. Platini of course has his 9-goal haul in Euro '84 to point to which is a level above anything Messi's produced in an international tournament too. You can say that they all played in better teams so obviously they played better individually, but for me there's not much difference between Maradona's Argentina, Zidane's France and Messi's Argentina. They were solid, functional teams who were extremely reliant on their talisman to win them the game. The first two coped with that better than Messi did, IMO.
 
Messi is beating records that have been written in stone for over 30 years -some of them, even more-

to say he is not the GOAT or one of them because he didnt win the World Cup is giving a tournament that is played once every four years and not by every good player in the world, too much relevance
 
Which France team are you refering to, Brwned? 2006? Slightly over the hill maybe but nevertheless there can be no comparison between Makelele and Vieira protecting the midfield with Thuram, Gallas, Abidal covering behind them and Henry and a young and upcoming Ribery who played great in '06 roaming ahead of Zidane. None of Demichelis, Garay, Rojo, Biglia, Enzo Perez, Higuain or Lavezzi would get into that team.

If Argentina had a fully fit squad then I would agree that Messi has no excuse but with an injured Agüero, injured Di Maria and totally out of form Higuain who came into the tournament on the back of an injury there wasn't much quality left in that Argentina team. It also completely took away from their main strength which was the attack. They were defensively organized (surprisingly) in the same way the Netherlands were despite lesser players and that was pretty much it.

Obviously Messi individually also wasn't at his best, he didn't even look physically allright. But no difference to Zidane's France? You're giving a bit too much credit to that Argentina team I think.
 
" Maradona never showed up at the European Cup, overrated "

let's reply to absurdities with more absurdities !!
 
Brwned said:
I agree with those that say World Cup performances shouldn't be the defining factor, but I really don't get how people can disregard it entirely simply due to the rise of Champions League football. Injuries, mismanagement and simple bad luck can play hugely important roles in tournaments that only last a month, yes, but it's that added challenge that makes it such a commendable achievement. Ronaldo overcame injuries to play a starring role in the World Cup. Zidane overcame mismanagement to play a starring role in a World Cup. At the end of the day, all of the great players faced the exact same problems and it's how they dealt with them that allowed them to play a decisive role in one of the biggest sporting events around and in many cases the pinnacle of their sporting careers that establishes them as truly a level above their peers.

The thing is, the people that are arguing against the World Cup being an important factor seemingly always argue against the most extreme version of the opposing argument - arguing against the idea that he needs to stand head and shoulders above everyone else in the tournament and almost single-handedly drag an average team to win it. There are so few people that think this that it's more or less a straw man argument. Cruyff didn't win the World Cup but his performances in '74 are still right up there with his greatest achievements and at the heart of his legendary status, and if Messi had done something similar I've no doubt much of the criticism would've died away. I'm not saying he should be expected to perform at the same level because Cruyff played with a group of players he was extremely familiar with and they were all on form, and that's not true of Messi, but the point is winning the tournament is not the be all and end all. It's just about showing something close to your best form under a different set of conditions. That's hardly a unique challenge that only Messi has had to live up to.

If you're talking about the great players you're talking about Maradona, Pelé, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Puskás, Di Stefano, Zidane, Ronaldo, Best, Garrincha, Eusébio, Platini etc. and the only player there that played in a World Cup and didn't show something close to his best form was Platini, and it's no doubt partly because of that that he's considered a tier below many of the others. Best and Di Stéfano didn't get a chance so that's not something you can hold against them, but the rest all have at least one really memorable World Cup performance to point to. I don't think Messi's performances last year can compete with any of the others and I don't think it was any better than Platini in '82, but his World Cup performances are almost dismissed entirely. Platini of course has his 9-goal haul in Euro '84 to point to which is a level above anything Messi's produced in an international tournament too. You can say that they all played in better teams so obviously they played better individually, but for me there's not much difference between Maradona's Argentina, Zidane's France and Messi's Argentina. They were solid, functional teams who were extremely reliant on their talisman to win them the game. The first two coped with that better than Messi did, IMO.
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Agree with that pretty much. Only remark I'd make is that Valdano and Burruchaga did in fact make the most of it when it also counted the most (unlike Higuaín, despite the great goal v Belgium, and Palacio), both in plays that involved and didn't involve Maradona. Also from the moment that Agüero got injured v Nigeria and especially Di María v Belgium the gig was up and they went from scoring 5 goals in 3 group games to 2 goals in 4 ko games; they also went from looking defensively fragile and conceding 3 in 3 in the group to defensive performances that made silly people exclaim Mascherano as Argentina's actual best player when they suddenly only conceded 1 in 4 (that's what Biglia and Enzo Pérez in MF and, a point you made somewhere I believe, Demichelís in for the shaky Fede Fernández and sitting deeper will do for your clueless DF). Personally I found Messi's best game at the WC to be the one v Switzerland, and the final v Germany was certainly his 2nd best in the ko stage (and overall better than Bosnia-Herzegovina and Iran as well).

Another note, I don't agree with the mantra re; players like poor ole Best, Giggs, etc. It's about gradation. NI managed to qualify both directly before and after Best's NT career, so what does that say? This by the way opens up lots of questions, like for example were Denmark "better off" without Laudrup? How does Garrincha '62 reflect on Pelé? Also, I agree that it should be held against star players like Messi, Cristiano, Rooney etc. that there is a massive discrepancy outside of their comfort zone, but on the other hand it's rarely noted how often all-time greats (and contemporary greats too) benefitted from having their comfort zone by and large with them on international duty... Magical Magyars/Honvéd, Cruyff totaalvoetbal, W-Germany of der Kaiser & der Bomber, Italian-Juve DF in '82, Pelé-Santos at a stretch (doesn't really fly for '58), Xaviesta-Barça (2010-12, not '08 totally different template), etc. compare that to likes of Brazil/Argentina post-Bosman...

Anyway, I agree that people are too keen on manipulating the international football argument either for or against certain players, when there's plenty of grey area to go around in this matter. ;)
 
Has been struggling a bit since the 2nd leg v City, which is only two games admittedly.. looks like that knock he received from Demichelís (resulting in a swollen foot/ankle) is still troubling him. Showed some great footwork tonight, but his passing was sloppy and dribbling too few and far in between. He did create one great shooting chance all by himself after going past three Celta players but, while by no means easy, should've probably scored that and the Messi of a couple of years ago probably would have.

The 1v1 miss right at the end where he was unsure what to do just sums up something I've noticed for the past two seasons... his finishing as a whole, and especially in 1v1 situations, has noticeably deteriorated. Of course, in return his playmaking qualities have become more refined, but it's still somewhat odd.

I suppose it doesn't help that Neymar has been extremely sloppy in his play for almost two months now and Suárez can't help himself but spend more time writhing in pain than actually touching the ball.
 
JamesB__ said:
He's finished.
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No he hasn't, that's the problem! :smirk:

In all seriousness, he's having a wonderful season with just a few games here and there where he's faltered a bit (both games v Málaga, RM and Celta, and also Almería and Córdoba at home in my opinion) and his finishing has let him down in 1v1 situations at times.
 
Is he actually more of a playmaker than a forward now, or is it something that's always been the case and I'm just noticing it now?
 
amolbhatia100 said:
Is he actually more of a playmaker than a forward now, or is it something that's always been the case and I'm just noticing it now?
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Always had it but I have noticed it more myself especially this season.

I think also having Suarez and Neymar beside him makes it easier to assist and definitely takes the pressure off him in a goal scoring sense.

Before Barca were always looking at him to do everything now he has the help so he can play his natural game more.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Well when you add up his assists...
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True, but assists probably don't even tell the full story do his creativity given the amount that are missed but he's always seen as a forward, which maybe now isn't even the best way to describe him given the amount of short passing interchanges he gets involved in, in midfield. Like I said, maybe I'm just noticing it now.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
Is he actually more of a playmaker than a forward now, or is it something that's always been the case and I'm just noticing it now?
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Suppose with Neymar and Suarez there his playmaking abilities would be more useful, especially when Iniesta isn't playing as well as he can.

Whatever position you put him in he's the best(within reason). Best right winger, best striker, best number 10 and best left winger. Probably the best attacking midfielder too and he wouldn't be too shabby playing the role Xavi did/does, though the positioning and that sort of stuff mightn't be quite there.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
Is he actually more of a playmaker than a forward now, or is it something that's always been the case and I'm just noticing it now?
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He always passed and assisted but now it's "look for options to pass first, dribble second" rather than "run at the defense and try to score first, pass second", to describe it in easy words. Which is understandable I guess given the team dynamic with 2 world class strikers infront of him but a declining midfield behind him.
 
Cait Sith said:
He always passed and assisted but now it's "looks for options to pass first, dribble second" rather than "run at the defense and try to score first, pass second", to describe it in easy words.
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Yeah that's sort of what i mean. He's always been this playmaking goal scoring freak, but the emphasis on the former seems to be greater now, probably partly due to a loss of that burst of acceleration. He's still doing it extremely well of course. I'm surprised he's getting as many goals as he is doing that.
 
He was excellent today. Man of the match for Barcelona, easily. Pulled the strings from midfield, and created havoc as usual going forward.

Anyone got his passing stats from today?

Also, pretty useful for time wasting apparently.
 
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